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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 7:05:03 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Perhaps the world let alone Muslims would do well to separate church and state, even Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sachs believes Muslims would do well if they separated the two. But why stop at Muslims, for surely church and state operate with other religions, the US being one of them. Religion has always been a controlling entity, what hope for anyone different is they do not conform to the state religion ? For example, Muslims in a country brought up on Christian ideals.

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(in reply to maybemaybenot)
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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 7:06:30 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

No one seems to want to answer the question: What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's POV. Or less valid than your own POV.  Interesting.

But  go ahead, carry on the same old rhetoric that has been beaten to death in other threads. It speaks volumes.

ETA: spelling


                        mbmbn


What makes opinion less valid than mine? Nothing. I just disagree with it.

What makes the Imam's opinion more valid? The fact that he's directly involved in this building project and not just giving his opinion from the sidelines.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 7:07:43 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

So is Iman Rauf's.




Iman is a supermodel married to David Bowie.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 8:00:20 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Yep gonna see a lot of nonsense between now and the election.


heck o59 is pretending I oppose the Mosque.

But made up shit is the basis for most of his arguments


Nope,I said you were a bigoted Islamaphobe before the Park 51 nonsense.

Follow along closer now.

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Profile   Post #: 24
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 8:08:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

There are Mosques closer to ground zero then this one. 


No there arent.

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and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 8:11:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

why is it appropriate for the Pentagon to host Muslim worship within its doors, and not appropriate for an existing community to establish a community center 2 blocks from the WTC?




the Pentagon prayer room is not a matter of "appropriateness", its a matter of law.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 8:21:48 PM   
HoleMonger


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

Once upon a time Bush 43 said that we shouldn't diss all Muslims for the acts of terrorists. Now all Muslims are conflated with terrorists.


Turns-out that there are more Logcabin gays voting Republican than there are muslims voting Republican. Since there are theocratic muslim nations out there that still execute people for being gay (like the religious right would happily do if they had the power) by demonizing your local cab drivers they can quietly avoid talking about gay marriage and appeal to the anti-establishment wealthy white gay votes with little loss.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/12/2010 8:38:30 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

why is it appropriate for the Pentagon to host Muslim worship within its doors, and not appropriate for an existing community to establish a community center 2 blocks from the WTC?




the Pentagon prayer room is not a matter of "appropriateness", its a matter of law.


tisk......how insensitive..........


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 2:43:42 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

No one seems to want to answer the question: What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's POV. Or less valid than your own POV.  Interesting.

But  go ahead, carry on the same old rhetoric that has been beaten to death in other threads. It speaks volumes.

ETA: spelling


                       mbmbn


What makes opinion less valid than mine? Nothing. I just disagree with it.

What makes the Imam's opinion more valid? The fact that he's directly involved in this building project and not just giving his opinion from the sidelines.


Dr. Jasser's opinion is not less valid, you just disagree with it. Yet non Muslims are overly sensitive and prejudice?

Being directly involved doesn't make one's opinion more valid. Terry Jones was directly involved in the planned Koran burning, therefore his opinion must be more valid than yours, George Bush was directly involved in the Iraq War, which means his opinion is more valid than yours. and the list never ends. A call for compassion from a Muslim is just a different opinion, but  other opposers of the project who call for compassion need to get over it. Thanks, I got it now.

                mbmbn

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Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 4:28:31 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

There are Mosques closer to ground zero then this one.


Wow, I didn't know that. I was under the impression that this one was only 2 blocks away. So how many Mosques are there that are closer? And if this is true, why are they trying so hard to build another?


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 6:31:14 AM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Dr. Jasser's opinion is not less valid, you just disagree with it. Yet non Muslims are overly sensitive and prejudice?


I think anyone who didn't actually lose someone in the WTC attacks who has a problem with this is oversensitive.

I think anyone who did lose someone who has a problem with this is placing blame in the wrong location.

quote:


Being directly involved doesn't make one's opinion more valid. Terry Jones was directly involved in the planned Koran burning, therefore his opinion must be more valid than yours, George Bush was directly involved in the Iraq War, which means his opinion is more valid than yours. and the list never ends.


Yeah, pretty much, for certain definition of valid. I'm not even sure what you mean by "a valid opinion" but the way I take it is that if people disagree, the person whose opinion holds more weight is the person directly affected by it.

If I were to tell Terry Jones "No, don't do that, it's awful" what I'm saying really doesn't affect me, but it affects him. While it would be nice for him to listen to my opinion and change his own, I won't hold my breath. It's his choice to go down that rabbit hole, I'm just a spectator.

quote:


A call for compassion from a Muslim is just a different opinion, but  other opposers of the project who call for compassion need to get over it. Thanks, I got it now.


I didn't read anything in the article about the Dr Jasser taking offense or talking about sensitivity. Which is what I think a lot of people need to get over. People think it's insensitive. That has been established. It's where they go from here that defines them in my eyes, and acceptance of the fact that other people will be insensitive to their feelings is one of those life lessons most of us should have learned in primary school.

People are letting their hurt feelings drive them, I think that's sad, and I also think it's sad that this is so politicized. I'm obviously not going to convince you to change your mind, I'm okay with that...I just wish that you and others who find this insensitive would focus more on internalizing the idea of sensitivity that you want to see in the world rather than externally trying to dictate the actions of others.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 7:45:24 AM   
maybemaybenot


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella



I think anyone who didn't actually lose someone in the WTC attacks who has a problem with this is oversensitive.

I think anyone who did lose someone who has a problem with this is placing blame in the wrong location.




Wow, just Wow.

             mbmbn








No man is an island entire of itself; every man
is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
own were; any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in mankind.
And therefore never send to know for whom
the bell tolls; it tolls for thee

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 7:48:23 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		But maybe, that is a distillation of the essence of your OP here, in mirror image, is it not?

Me, personally?  My dogfights elsewhere, just sayin'..........unless I ain't got enough coffee in me this morning yet. (probably the case...)

Ron 

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(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 7:51:47 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
maybemaybenot



"Wow, just Wow."

             mbmbn


Why wow?

Elisabella is spot on.




< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/13/2010 7:55:00 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 7:53:38 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Someone, I'm sure will find a way to explain that he hates his own religion, hates other muslims, and does so because he's a bigot.

The torturous route some are willing to go to play those cards is absolutely mind-boggling.

Edited to add, I get the reason they do however. Once mission accomplished can be proclaimed, they can deride and dismiss any future discussion on the topic.



Would that be anything like you deriding and dismissing any counter-arguments before they are even made?

(in reply to StrangerThan)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 8:08:32 AM   
CreativeDominant


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

No one seems to want to answer the question: What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's POV. Or less valid than your own POV.  Interesting.

But  go ahead, carry on the same old rhetoric that has been beaten to death in other threads. It speaks volumes.

ETA: spelling


                       mbmbn


What makes opinion less valid than mine? Nothing. I just disagree with it.

What makes the Imam's opinion more valid? The fact that he's directly involved in this building project and not just giving his opinion from the sidelines.
Being involved in the project itself doesn't make his opinion any more valid.  Involvement does not lend validity to a viewpoint.

Hitler was very involved in the building of the Nazi party and the Third Reich...those who opposed him, such as Churchill and Roosevelt and Truman, were not.  Does that make their opinion that his decision to build the Third Reich as a danger to the rest of the world wrong or any less valid than his viewpoint that world domination by the German people would be best for the world?

This is NOT a comparison of the Imam to Hitler but it is a rejection of the statement that involvement in building anything makes your opinion more valid than those from outside the project.  He may well have the belief that the center would promote interfaith peace but it seems that an awful lot of christian americans don't see it that way.  The Muslim cited by the OP doesn't seem to see it that way and, while there is no count given, I am sure there are Muslims who agree with the doctor.  Are they all wrong...or is their view any less valid...simply because they are not involved in building the center?


(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 8:09:51 AM   
maybemaybenot


Posts: 2817
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Status: offline 		Yes and no, Ron.

My point in the OP, which has been demonstrated so far... is that none of the Mosque supporters are going to call Dr. Jasser a bigot or give his words the same excoriation that CM posters words have been given. And that is because they are uncomfortable calling out a Muslim. To call a Muslim prejudiced or a bigot, when his or her opinion is the same as some non Muslims, wouldn't fit into the arguement that this is we oversensitive, intolerant, right wing nutjobs who don't understand the religion of Islam being unreasonable.

I also think Dr. Jassers piece fits quite nicely with John Donne's poem.

But the poem was directed at Elisabella, who is quite good at telling mourners how to feel and what to think. One does not have to be a relative, friend, co worker or anything else to mourn the loss of life. As seen with JFK, MLK, even Michael Jackson.

I too, am moving along on this topic. I have gleaned much more insight from talking to my Muslim neighbors from Iran about this, than I do here. They, as a family, are divided on their opinion, but respect and understand each others opinion. And funny enough, my opinion. Something that is sadly lacking around here on this topic.

                   mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 8:13:11 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan

Someone, I'm sure will find a way to explain that he hates his own religion, hates other muslims, and does so because he's a bigot.

The torturous route some are willing to go to play those cards is absolutely mind-boggling.

Edited to add, I get the reason they do however. Once mission accomplished can be proclaimed, they can deride and dismiss any future discussion on the topic.





That`s a bit simplistic and disingenuous.


There`s a mix arguements apposing the mosque, that rage from biggotted to indefensable to redicuous to irrational.You know those elements exist,here and in public.

Any of the facets of the mosque oppsition you take offence to being associated with may just be on your side of the screen.

Or you can give us a good,rational defend-able arguement why Park 51 shouldn`t be left alone.





< Message edited by Owner59 -- 9/13/2010 8:14:36 AM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 8:17:02 AM   
rulemylife


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Joined: 8/23/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

No one seems to want to answer the question: What makes this Muslims POV any less valid than Imam Rauf's POV. Or less valid than your own POV.  Interesting.



He is welcome to his point of view, but his premise is not correct.

He claims that the purpose of building this cultural center was political, which flies in the face of fact.

This was politicized by people like O'Reilly and Gingrich. 

All these people wanted to do was move to a larger building, a building that was already owned by a member of their group.

They never made it an issue, it was the conservative media that hyped this into something it never should have become.


(in reply to maybemaybenot)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: A different POV on the Mosque - 9/13/2010 8:23:47 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

There are Mosques closer to ground zero then this one. 


No there arent.


So speaketh the Willbeur.

You know this group that wants to build the cultural center, they have been worshiping for years in a building closer to ground zero than where they want to move.



(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 40
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