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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:31:13 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx


quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

What does "consensual nonconsent" mean?



If you think about it, it's what people like Aileen said. To paraphrase 'we don't think in terms of limits, because we know what we're about'.

But if you don't think in terms of limits and think about your relationship with your partner (that you chose), then a lot of things sort themselves out.



In that case, i think what really happens is that the two people have similar limits. Aileen also says, if He went psycho, she'd re-evaluate. (paraphrase). That means she's really NOT letting go of her limits, He's just not breaking them.

pam

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:46:34 PM   
Aileen1968


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From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09


quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx


quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

What does "consensual nonconsent" mean?



If you think about it, it's what people like Aileen said. To paraphrase 'we don't think in terms of limits, because we know what we're about'.

But if you don't think in terms of limits and think about your relationship with your partner (that you chose), then a lot of things sort themselves out.



In that case, i think what really happens is that the two people have similar limits. Aileen also says, if He went psycho, she'd re-evaluate. (paraphrase). That means she's really NOT letting go of her limits, He's just not breaking them.

pam


Actually no...by me referring to him going loony, I mean if he suddenly decided that it'd be a good idea to cut off an arm or something. Seriously.
Anything short of that, he has full control of what happens to me.

The thought of a written contract is more absurd to me than him cutting me with a scalpel (just an example) even if we'd never discussed that.
It's not that hard to know what type of person is going to be the best for you mentally and physically.
If he had said to me, I want to sit down and discuss what we're going to do and what we're not going to do and then we can reevaluate it at a later date, I'd have been out that door so fast.
This is a relationship for me. Not a job.
I didn't give my consent on a daily basis in my 18 year vanilla marriage. Why would I do it in this relationship?

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 9/19/2010 5:47:54 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:46:39 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

In that case, i think what really happens is that the two people have similar limits. Aileen also says, if He went psycho, she'd re-evaluate. (paraphrase). That means she's really NOT letting go of her limits, He's just not breaking them.

pam

True.

I'm looking for compatibility as much as possible too but I have crossed the fence so to speak without thinking one thing about it. Usually on purpose. Two times come to mind.

Once with a female that told me she wasn't into watersports.
One day when I was getting ready for work..I wound up early about 30 minutes or so and grabbed her for a quickie..afterward I had her get on her knees and started pissing right on her head..She had a wonderful look on her face :>..I then grabbed a towel and wiped her face a bit so I could kiss her bye..Told her I loved her and went to work..

When I got home she was waiting in the bed with a slinky bit of thread that she knew I loved on her and everything was

The second time ended with a lot less fanfare lol.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/19/2010 5:48:02 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:53:02 PM   
gungadin09


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Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Okay, but not cutting off an arm is still a limit. Most of my limits are along those lines. However, i still call them limits.

There is another difference. To me, it really is more like a job. So far.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/19/2010 5:55:39 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:55:23 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Okay, but not cutting off an arm is still a limit. Most of my limits are along those lines. However, i still call them limits.

pam

As long as they're not wanting to cut off limbs they aren't all bad right?

If it's been more like a job pam..I'd say you've probably been missing out.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 9/19/2010 5:56:57 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:56:45 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		i think i'm just really anal. i just have to have it spelled out. Makes me feel secure.

pam

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:57:24 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Thus the whole part of my original post of picking a man who makes fantastic choices in life...
We do a lot of edgy play. Never once have I told him to stop what he was doing because we hadn't discussed it.
I can't imagine ever doing that. Not with him.
That's the difference for me. It's with him and I chose well.
It's also why I never considered casual meetings with people.

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 5:58:02 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

i think i'm just really anal. i just have to have it spelled out. Makes me feel secure.

pam

Your not the first one to say that...Ya can't plan for every single event though.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:01:01 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		To me to give consent means you have to understand what you're consenting to. By definition minors are legally considered unable to consider the full ramifications therefore they cannot give consent. Also a person with PDD, although physically adult, may well be mentally age 6. Therefore they cannot understand what they are consenting to and thus cannot give it. Also someone with dementia cannot understand or remember, therefore they cannot give it. Also someone who has passed out from alcohol isn't capable of consenting.

If you do understand that you're accepting it for fear he'll walk and you'll be on your own, you are able to understand and make the decision to accept whatever. Is it right that people live like that? Hell no. But that's a moral judgment not a legal one.

Would I respect anyone who used that argument to get me to do things I didn't want to? No. But that's again a moral issue, not a legal one. Consent falls within the confines of the law, not morality.


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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:01:03 PM   
gungadin09


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Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Aileen, how long did you two know each other before you started playing? If you don't mind my asking.

pam

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:04:30 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		We spoke for a few months before we could coordinate our schedules. Had one quick "Hi how are you" in his truck in a Lowes parking lot and then met in a hotel room the next week. From that moment on it became a driving force to be together 24/7 for both of us.
On a sidenote....our hours of conversations before we met were not bdsm related. They were life subjects.

edited to add....we don't play. We are a couple and this is our life. It isn't play to us.

< Message edited by Aileen1968 -- 9/19/2010 6:06:07 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:19:45 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Wow. You're very trusting. i don't think i would have consented to "whatever" based on knowing Someone such a little time.

Are all your relationships that trusting? Have you ever had it go bad? Regretted that trust? i have. That's why i insist on talking about limits beforehand.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/19/2010 6:26:02 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:21:53 PM   
Aileen1968


Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
Status: offline 		Heh. I didn't even know his last name when we met.
And here we are three years later...he's due to walk through the door any minute after being in Chicago for the past week on business.
Sometimes you have to trust your gut and go for it.

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:21:55 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Wow. You're very trusting. i don't think i would have consented to "whatever" based on knowing Someone such a little time.

Shore and Aileen are kind of...special like that. They scare me (in the good way) (or at least I think it's the good way)...

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:22:07 PM   
Twoshoes


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quote:


I'm also someone who gets a lot of pleasure out of the concept of conditioning and consensual non-consent, so I find myself wondering at what point the line blurs into non-consent? Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.


When the line is blurred for the person's mind on a day-to-day basis.
In my opinion, you need trust before and after.

I don't see how a Dominant/Domme who understands that controlling something entails responsibility is going to agree to do this and not ensure overall emotional stability.

I've seen this before: "How am I supposed to be scared if I know it isn't for real."
I'm scared of roller coasters. They are real. I haven't been hurt by one.

I'm just going to quote LadyPact now (I have permission):
quote:


This kind of play can be dangerous if you aren't dealing with a person who has good general self-esteem and you don't reinforce the positives properly.  Take a look at some of the answers right here in this very thread.  Some of these situations, where people have been harmed by emotional sadism, I wouldn't go near that kind of play with a ten foot pole with them.  I mean that in no way to be offensive to those who answered the question honestly about their prior experiences.  I mean that it just obviously would be a bad idea in cases like that because of not working for them and it more likely to be damaging.

The old adage about physical being different than the emotional applies here.  If I beat My boy with a cane, I know exactly how long it takes for his body to heal.  With emotional play, you can't see with your eyes.  You have to look with everything else.  You have to ask the probing questions and you can't settle for the fluff answers.  Personally, I do a lot of what some people might think boarders on overcompensating.  If I play with humiliation, the aftercare post scene is going to be focused on verbal reinforcement of the person's worth to Me.  I'll continue to do so over the following weeks long after the play is over.

I think one of the keys to knowing what kind of play is too much is if it crosses over into every day life.  Fear is a really good example of this.  In our case, clip isn't afraid of Me in our day to day interactions, but I can promise you that he's felt fear during some of our play.  If I saw that spilling over into times that it wasn't intentional, it's time to pull back on that area, even if it is in the dungeon.

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 6:54:07 PM   
CaringandReal


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
OK, I generally don't think in terms of power and consent. I normally think in terms of influence. That being said I do experience some of these concerns myself.


That's a lot to this. Yes, submissives/slaves consent, yes some of us consent only once, but in extreme master/slave relationships, I think that consent, the conception that a clear decision has been made on their part, one way or the other, is mostly illusory. I think any dominant worth his salt and who wants a particular submissive will strongly influence that individual to never think of not consenting. There's nothing insidious about this and the influence won't work usually, if the dominant's motives are toward something very harmful for the slave, because a part of influence involves reassuring the slave, in various ways, that they can give up all control and not worry about it.

You can't do that level of reassurance with most submissives if you aren't sincere about the fact that they need not worry their little heads about whatever it is you want to do. Note that I'm talking about consent for a permanent control relationship between two people who have gotten to know one another, not consent for a scene between two relative strangers.

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 7:23:09 PM   
mstrjx


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Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Are all your relationships that trusting?


I know the question isn't directed at the crowd, but I'll pop in here. Hold your britches.

I have had relationships start by someone finding me online, chatting during the afternoon, meeting for dinner and playing later in the evening. It's not usually me pressing for the quickness. It doesn't take long to figure out I'm pretty genuine.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter how much the other person trusts me (and they do, they always do). I trust me. You typically don't have bad experiences around me.

Jeff

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 7:33:32 PM   
gungadin09


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Joined: 3/19/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mstrjx

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

Are all your relationships that trusting?


I have had relationships start by someone finding me online, chatting during the afternoon, meeting for dinner and playing later in the evening. It's not usually me pressing for the quickness. It doesn't take long to figure out I'm pretty genuine.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter how much the other person trusts me (and they do, they always do). I trust me. You typically don't have bad experiences around me.

Jeff


i don't doubt it. i'm sure i would trust You too, if i ever met You. i'm sure those that trust You are well rewarded for that trust. It's just that people trust serial killers, too. Serial killers also seem genuine. Right up until they start eating you alive.

pam

P.S.- i knew someone who studied serial killers. He showed me some photos of Ted Bundy. It's like everyone says- they do look like everybody else.

P.P.S.- Which is not to say that "limits" would have done a lick of good with Ted Bundy, or that spending years getting to know him first would have made any difference.

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/19/2010 7:44:52 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 7:43:17 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		I just realized I really fail.

I was dancing next to a knife pointed upwards.

"special".

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 9/19/2010 7:54:53 PM >

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RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 7:46:26 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
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quote:

i don't doubt it. i'm sure i would trust You too, if i ever met You. i'm sure those that trust You are well rewarded for that trust. It's just that people trust serial killers, too. Serial killers also seem genuine. Right up until they start eating you alive.

Lol


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

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