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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 8:37:19 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		By "ready" I mean emotionally ready and able to process what is happening without any negative feelings.

Resentment is a negative emotion.  We try to focus on being positive.  It works for us.


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(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 10:02:54 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I think what is missing in this discussion of consent is the difference between being submissive and being a slave.

A submissive can decide if they are "ready" or discuss the different things that they would consent to.

A slave, from what I have gathered, makes no such differentiation. A slave does whatever the owner wants, no questions asked.

To me, this discussion can come from two widely varying points of view, thus making the whole consensual/consent/forced/non-consensual thing rather a moot point after reading the replies.

Oh, and someone mentioned the concept of LUCK. I don't care what anyone says about how they make good choices in men, blah blah blah. It is absolutely 100% about luck in your choices in partners, despite your thinking otherwise.

You can be into someone, think you know them, for many years possibly. And then one day, they will do something you had not bargained for that might change the entire course of your relationship.

So although you may have enjoyed and agreed and bought into it all for all these years, one day, you may be unluckily enough to have that person change into someone you no longer trust. You may be able to work it out, or you may not.

Then all your consent and feeling you picked the right person fly out the window.

The only thing you should really consent to in this life, is taking care of yourself.

< Message edited by sexyred1 -- 9/20/2010 10:03:32 AM >

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 10:14:56 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

A slave, from what I have gathered, makes no such differentiation. A slave does whatever the owner wants, no questions asked.


Yes and no. I know plenty of slaves who question their masters, as it's allowed in their dynamic.

I'll do what he wants, but not without telling him how I feel about things.  Then he decides if it's best for our relationship to have me to it or to wait.

I don't want to turn this to a sub/slave debate, but "no questions asked" is not part of my dynamic.

quote:


To me, this discussion can come from two widely varying points of view, thus making the whole consensual/consent/forced/non-consensual thing rather a moot point after reading the replies.


It really boils down to the fact that each relationship is unique - some M/s have a "force" dynamic, some don't. Some have a "questions are ok" dynamic, some don't.  And so on.  My owner knows where certain lines are, that if crossed, will cause me emotional harm.  He relies on me to communicate when something is hurting me emotionally, so he can make the best decision based on that knowledge. He could feasibly cross them anyway, but then he'd have a mess to clean up.  And that's not his preferred kind of mess, lol.

quote:


The only thing you should really consent to in this life, is taking care of yourself.


Taking care of myself is critical.  It's required of him, as well, that I do.  But I required it of myself before I even met him.


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Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 10:26:15 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


The only thing you should really consent to in this life, is taking care of yourself.


that's the one thing i do not consent to. a significant reason i chose a life of slavery was the fact that i could not adequately take care of myself, and needed someone willing and able to take on that burden for me.

but i agree with NuevaVida in that this not a sub v. slave thing, it is more about the differences in individual relationships.

(in reply to sexyred1)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 10:27:54 AM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

A slave, from what I have gathered, makes no such differentiation. A slave does whatever the owner wants, no questions asked.


Yes and no. I know plenty of slaves who question their masters, as it's allowed in their dynamic.

I'll do what he wants, but not without telling him how I feel about things.  Then he decides if it's best for our relationship to have me to it or to wait.

I don't want to turn this to a sub/slave debate, but "no questions asked" is not part of my dynamic.

quote:


To me, this discussion can come from two widely varying points of view, thus making the whole consensual/consent/forced/non-consensual thing rather a moot point after reading the replies.


It really boils down to the fact that each relationship is unique - some M/s have a "force" dynamic, some don't. Some have a "questions are ok" dynamic, some don't.  And so on.  My owner knows where certain lines are, that if crossed, will cause me emotional harm.  He relies on me to communicate when something is hurting me emotionally, so he can make the best decision based on that knowledge. He could feasibly cross them anyway, but then he'd have a mess to clean up.  And that's not his preferred kind of mess, lol.

quote:


The only thing you should really consent to in this life, is taking care of yourself.


Taking care of myself is critical.  It's required of him, as well, that I do.  But I required it of myself before I even met him.



Thanks, NV. I should have said that each relationship, whether sub or slave has it's own varying dynamics.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 11:53:48 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247
The only thing you should really consent to in this life, is taking care of yourself.

that's the one thing i do not consent to.

For different reasons, this is not a part of our M/s construction also. I don't expect Carol to take care of herself. I expect her to turn herself over to me. If I give Carol a command which she believes is bad for her, I wish feedback, but when I make the choice, I expect her to trust her judgement over mine.

Again, I don't really see this as an M/s thing so much as a relationship thing unique to our particular relationship -- whatever it is called.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 12:28:26 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		You guys are all sharing really great ways in which your relationship is consensual, and how that works. It's an interesting discussion, but I'm actually wondering more about where something slips into non-consent and how you know it has. NV mentioned resentment creating negativity, and red mentioned taking care of yourself as a sub, but several other people disagree. There's probably no community-wide definition of consent, but how do you know you have un-coerced consent from someone? How do you know that you yourself are not being coerced? Is the coercion itself a problem or not?

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 12:38:17 PM   
Shadow-tiger


Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/8/2008
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

There's probably no community-wide definition of consent, but how do you know you have un-coerced consent from someone? How do you know that you yourself are not being coerced? Is the coercion itself a problem or not?

Off the cuff, I gotta say that it's not going to be possible to know until well after the fact. You can rely on contracts, trust, knowing someone inside and out. But if you play in the realm where coercing someone is a potential reality, there's no way to know for sure at the time.

I could check a bazillion times, ask for consent, try to not push, but if my girl is at the point where she wants to please me more than upset me, then she's probably going to be ok with just about anything at that point.

This is why I try to be prepared for dealing with things going wrong. Whether in a big way, or a (apparently) small way. Mistakes are going to happen, unless you're one of those super lucky people with the perfect match. I bet even then little things come up, they just don't need much attention.

Another angle to think about is when you go into a relationship with the knowledge that sooner or later your partner will coerce you, that he will push you to a place you normally wouldn't want to go. I'm talking the any time, any where type of stuff that could possibly leave you in a bad way for a while.

How much is too much in that respect?
For me it's dependent on my partner.


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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 12:51:03 PM   
leadership527


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Joined: 6/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
but I'm actually wondering more about where something slips into non-consent
Of COURSE I coerce Carol. I am her master. As I noted earlier, I have no idea whether she consents or not to anything I do. We are too inextricably intertwined for that to work. The whole concept of consent requires a two party system which we don't have and don't want. We are "us", not "Jeff" vs. "Carol". So rather than worry about all these philosophical details, I'm more focused on reality... IS IT WORKING?

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 1:02:51 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I'm, um, between situations (so to speak). My profile says something to the effect that the very best fit for me would be someone who a) identifies as a slave and b) is service-oriented.

Now, by service-oriented I do not necessarily mean housework (although it could). What it means is that someone who would 'serve' in any variety of ways. Certainly having an open mind is best, so as not to be thrown by the variety.

Since this fantasy woman doesn't exist, I can't rightly say how close to this cookie-cutter fantasy she would be, given her background and interests. Also, I'm fairly open to possibilities. Because my experiences and interests are all across the map, my requirements in any one area aren't all that stiff (so to speak).

Having rambled up 'til now, if her demeanor or interests allow for con/non-con, I would be all for it. I'm pretty far ahead on the trustability curve, and I don't really want to have to negotiate any little thing if it hasn't been discussed. Let's just skip to the obedience and have a fun time of things.

I think the 'sub'/'slave' labels can get in the way because there isn't a universal standard, but most people who have been around a few minutes and have given the distinction a little thought 'generally' tend to agree on terminology.

Jeff

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(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 1:15:41 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Not-so-random thoughts, in no particular order:

Sexyred1:  No worries, I was just clarifying my point of view.

Taking care of myself:  I've done a lot of work on myself and have become quite self aware.  He trusts me to know when something might prove to be harmful to me.  I have known me longer than he has, so he relies on me to tell him when something doesn't feel right.  He has placed limits on this relationship (KoM spoke of this in a really amazing way that Mr. Man and I both greatly agree with), and within those limits is that neither of us will be harmed - physically, emotionally, mentally, etc. So I am required to take care of myself by speaking up when something brings up those harmful feelings within me.  Also, since we don't live together, he relies on me to look out for myself when not in his presence.  For the most part, we look out for ourselves, each other, and this relationship.  We both make mistakes, so we have each other's back.

Being coerced:  Coercion isn't such a bad thing, depending on context and intent.  It's when something gives me that awful, ugly gut feeling inside - those feelings that echo what I felt in my days of allowing abuse into my life - that I will resist coercion.  I recognize when something is wrong for me, and we talk about it.  This has happened once in our relationship, and we talked about it and it was straightened out.  In short, I know when I am being coerced, and I know when it feels OK and when it does not feel OK.  Everything is talked about.

Two party system (great term, Jeff):  I fully agree.  We are not a "me vs. you" dynamic.  We are "us", and he is the leader of "us."  He leads with my input, but his decision is the authority.  Further, he knows I'm getting to a point where I'd probably go ahead and do something I felt harmful, even if we talked about it and he required it of me anyway.  Because of this, he is very aware and careful of where and how he leads me.

We don't spend much time (if any) talking about consent and coercion and such.  Our evolution together has occurred at its own pace, without pushing.  From the beginning, neither of us has been in a hurry to get to any particular destination.  We have both had some pretty rotten experiences in the past, and have come to understand what's important to us and what we want.  We both value open honesty, and feeling good about what's taking place.  The growing success of our relationship is our evidence that what we're doing (consent, taking care of ourselves, and keeping things positive) is working for us.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 1:47:20 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
Oh, and someone mentioned the concept of LUCK. I don't care what anyone says about how they make good choices in men, blah blah blah. It is absolutely 100% about luck in your choices in partners, despite your thinking otherwise.

So although you may have enjoyed and agreed and bought into it all for all these years, one day, you may be unluckily enough to have that person change into someone you no longer trust. You may be able to work it out, or you may not.

Then all your consent and feeling you picked the right person fly out the window.


I'll be the first to admit that serendipity plays a big role in all of this. There are millions - billions - of people out there. In many ways it can be very akin to finding the proverbial needle in the haystack. I know in my case it was. We live in different states and casually crossed paths in an online venue not designed for meeting people like this place. I have to wonder how someone with such a cynical outlook on relationships even bothers with them in the first place. If we're all buying into some facade then aren't you, as well?

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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 1:55:20 PM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
There's probably no community-wide definition of consent


I think conceptually we might be able to come to some sort of consensus but in practice it takes on so many different forms it almost renders the discussion futile.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 2:47:52 PM   
agirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl



If you ever resent anything that's done *to* you , then something's gone awry.

agirl




but isn't that kind of natural in M/s, at some point or other? there have been more than a few times i've resented something being done to me, or something i was made to do. but i still have that unwavering acceptance that 1. i chose this path many years ago; and 2. He can do whatever the ___ he wants with me, i'm his.





 I'd describe it more as cross and frustrated.( in my case)

There are quite a few times when I'm going about something I REALLY do not want to and have been gritting my teeth and  been hating him in the moment ....lol

I wasn't clear....so to clarify......

If I was left feeling resentful after the fact, if I had residual resentment/bitterness then I can see that eating away , little by little, at the trust and closeness we have.

I trust what I have, which means I can trust that he IS going to make me do things I DON'T want to......and while I might get indignant (and sometimes really cross) I accept that IS the case.

And yes, without question, I do not like everything that is done to me but I don't resent it. That acceptance IS why I don't.

Regards, agirl

(nice to see you prop)








(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 4:00:31 PM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


The only thing you should really consent to in this life, is taking care of yourself.


that's the one thing i do not consent to. a significant reason i chose a life of slavery was the fact that i could not adequately take care of myself, and needed someone willing and able to take on that burden for me.

but i agree with NuevaVida in that this not a sub v. slave thing, it is more about the differences in individual relationships.



From 1989 until 2007 I took care of myself and took care of my ex-husband. It was fucking exhausting. Draining. I don't do it anymore. I won't and can't. That is one of the reasons I divorced him.

The best thing about this relationship with my man is that he takes care of me, makes the decisions, tells me what to do and when and I love it. He has the financial, emotional and mental resources to do so, and to do so very very well. I don't make any big decisions and I don't care. I have a career with huge responsibilities and all I want to do outside of that is pamper him and be domestic. He decides the rest and he takes care of me. I love the way that works.

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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to daddysprop247)
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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 4:32:23 PM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline 		The way I see it is this: In "consensual non-consent", the consent is implicit, because if it were truly non consensual, then it would be something being forced on someone against their will.  I'd say the concept of Willing Suspension of Disbelief is applicable here, in that the sub or slave would want to/need to feel as if they're being forced, whilst maintaining the environment of safety, security and trust that they need.

However, truly forcing someone to do something against their will isn't going to instill much trust. Freak them out, maybe, damage them emotionally, perhaps, but trust?  Nope.  And why should they trust? Someone's just forced them to do something they didn't want to do, and they aren't happy about it. They didn't consent. It was non consent, and now there's bad feelings. Do they feel liberated? Do they feel as if their horizons were expanded? Or do they feel abused, and angry at the Dominant for pushing them too far? 

A Dom/me has a lot of power, and to use that power irresponsibly is unconscionable, in my opinion. I would consider it irresponsible  to push a sub, or a slave, to do something he was truly unwilling to do. I wouldn't think I  would be  doing something that was good for him, or that I would be expanding his horizons. If he really, really didn't consent,  and I forced him to do something for my own enjoyment, or any other reason, I feel that I would be crossing the line, and betraying his trust. This to me would be what I would consider to be an abuse of power on my part. 

If it's consensual non-consent, it cannot be non consensual, because it is consensual. Yes, the dance of semantics. But very important semantics.



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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 5:04:19 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		I do what I want, when I want, how I want.

I am also exceptionally clever about who I do it to and with.

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RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 5:11:39 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

I do what I want, when I want, how I want.

I am also exceptionally clever about who I do it to and with.


I love it.  I'm inspired to match your getting-my-way skills.
I am, so far, only an amateur.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 5:16:24 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		Follow you bliss!

And choose your partners wisely.

Much of what we do is illegal. Choose poorly and you can be kinda fucked.



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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 5:32:21 PM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl


 I'd describe it more as cross and frustrated.( in my case)

There are quite a few times when I'm going about something I REALLY do not want to and have been gritting my teeth and  been hating him in the moment ....lol

I wasn't clear....so to clarify......

If I was left feeling resentful after the fact, if I had residual resentment/bitterness then I can see that eating away , little by little, at the trust and closeness we have.

I trust what I have, which means I can trust that he IS going to make me do things I DON'T want to......and while I might get indignant (and sometimes really cross) I accept that IS the case.

And yes, without question, I do not like everything that is done to me but I don't resent it. That acceptance IS why I don't.

Regards, agirl

(nice to see you prop)







agirl, what you've shared above makes sense, and helps me to better understand where you are coming from. i agree with you that if resentment is a residual, lingering state then it will quickly erode the relationship as a whole. with me it's not a feeling that generally lasts longer than a few days or so, but i can admit that it's there in the first place. unlike you, i can't say i really feel cross or directly angry. it's more an overwhelming negative feeling where i'm internally questioning why is he subjecting me to this, why does he want this, doesn't he care, etc. the resentment generally always morphs into despair, which is a state from which he's able to build me back up.

thinking about it more and more...dang, these Masters sure have to put up with a lot! lol


(and very nice to see you too )

(in reply to agirl)
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