Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Consent


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Consent Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 7:57:53 PM   
Shadow-tiger


Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/8/2008
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

quote:


I'm also someone who gets a lot of pleasure out of the concept of conditioning and consensual non-consent, so I find myself wondering at what point the line blurs into non-consent? Would love to hear anyone's thoughts on this.


When the line is blurred for the person's mind on a day-to-day basis.
In my opinion, you need trust before and after.

I don't see how a Dominant/Domme who understands that controlling something entails responsibility is going to agree to do this and not ensure overall emotional stability.

I think you just hit the nail on the head for me buddy! I happen to be a lover of the deep dark recesses of the mind. All those things two people can do together that aren't necessarily a good idea. It can be sweet, it can be hella intense, and it can blur the lines in day to day life if one isn't careful.

For me the answer is to take a step back every so often, give both of us time to catch our breaths and get our bearings. If you don't occasionally take a moment to catch a breather and re-orient, it can be easy to just keep pushing a little more every day. When I play with someone who I know doesn't have the capacity to say NO, I have to think things through very carefully.

Like others have mentioned, this isn't play for me, I don't do scenes, it's simply part of who I am.

On the matter of contracts, I couldn't conceive of taking that approach. I prefer to earn my partners trust and respect, as well as her earning mine. Between that, and having the sense to be nominally careful in what I do, I tend to do alright.

ETA: I forgot to mention that I think the big difference for adults is going into a relationship with eyes wide open. Knowing the type of play that can occur, how intense things can be. As opposed to thinking you're just going to have a kinky time, and then someone pushes a little too far... and it's difficult to turn back, to say no...

Alright, hopefully that last bit made some sense.


< Message edited by Shadow-tiger -- 9/19/2010 8:01:36 PM >

_____________________________

Just some guy (profile)
Just a tiny bit evil
My kind of love song

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 8:24:19 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		These are all totally fascinating takes on consent, and I'm beginning to see a bit where the line generally seems to be. Do we all agree that consent is something that is taken into account before a relationship/scene gets underway, regardless of whether the question comes up again?

Another thing that is something I hadn't thought out before:

quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1
if an activity is being done to someone that will potentially damage them emotionally or physically to an extreme degree, then it becomes a matter of judgement; what you should do as opposed to what you can do.


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP
But that's again a moral issue, not a legal one. Consent falls within the confines of the law, not morality.


So do you (general you) define consent for yourself and your partner within the terms of the legal definition, or the moral one? Are they one and the same or very different?

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 8:28:40 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Sorry, i must have missed it. What is the legal definition of consent, for BDSM?

Wait, isn't BDSM itself illegal in many states?

pam



< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/19/2010 8:31:53 PM >

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 8:28:49 PM   
Shadow-tiger


Posts: 1775
Joined: 6/8/2008
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

So do you (general you) define consent for yourself and your partner within the terms of the legal definition, or the moral one? Are they one and the same or very different?

On the grand scale I have to go with moral consent, but the legal version is something to be kept in mind as well. There tend to be reasons for it after all.


_____________________________

Just some guy (profile)
Just a tiny bit evil
My kind of love song

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 8:40:03 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
What is the legal definition of consent, for BDSM?

Wait, isn't BDSM itself illegal in many states?


You know what, I don't know this myself either. I'm going to look it up right now and get back to you.

(in reply to gungadin09)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 9:20:18 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		In Canada, you can consent to "assault not causing bodily harm".
The legal definition for "informed consent" is the same as it would be for everything else.

Sadly, we don't accept any more Americans.
Unless you have cookies.
Or are tourists.
Tourists with cookies.
(No more 18-year-olds with  T-shirts!)

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 10:49:37 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes
Sadly, we don't accept any more Americans.

Really, we just got our residency papers a few days ago. They must've taken a closer look at us, realized their mistake, and stopped approving any more.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 11:03:45 PM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes
Sadly, we don't accept any more Americans.
Unless you have cookies.


I have cookies!! Yay!! Can I come to Canada and get assaulted without bodily harm??

In other news, I can't find the actual consent laws regarding things like "assault." Also, since I am a wuss and rarely do anything that leaves marks, I don't have to worry about that Does anyone know a good link?

(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 11:14:40 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Consent is a complex subject for me. People consent all the time to things they really don't want, for all sorts of reasons. 

Ultimately, we need to take accountability for our decisions, and reconcile those decisions within ourselves.   I have consented to being abused in the past, because I thought I deserved it.  I have changed significantly, and would not consent to such treatment again.

I just had a conversation with Mr. Man last night, in which I said for the good of us and our relationship, I have to speak up when something doesn't sit right, as opposed to just going along with it and pretending things are ok.  There are things I can't give him right now and be OK with.  If he required them of me anyway, I would probably do it.  Not out of fear or anything like that, but because I am getting to the point where I am driven from within to do what he wants.

As for how to trust consent - great question.  First and foremost, I have to trust myself and my knowledge of myself.  He has to trust himself.  And we have to trust each other.  We have to talk about the things that bother us, as well as the things that make us tick and feel good.  We have to trust in our love and commitment for each other, and in our knowledge of each other.  And with that, I can put my trust in the way he is leading us, and he can trust in whether something is healthy or harmful to me.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 11:15:04 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline 		I have an even better idea: We'll just annex Vermont and you can move there instead. I'm sure Vermonters wouldn't really mind; they like lakes, public health care programs, green trees, cabins, small family farms and snow storms.

Jeff, I thought you were in Seattle. But I reckon you have enough common sense to be allowed in.

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 9/19/2010 11:16:47 PM >

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Consent - 9/19/2010 11:29:25 PM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline 		--Fast reply--

I've scooted through this thread, but now have to jump on a plane to Raleigh NC.

Some really solid comments and thoughts so far, but I'm not sure we've nailed it yet.

My thoughts so far :

Aileen has the kind of relationship many of us envy, and I get the impression that it's built on common sense, communication, mutual respect (however the power dynamic works out), and really good instincts. There's a bit of luck involved too, I'm sure, but people mostly make their own luck. littlewonder expresses a similar situation (again I'm envious!).

So we've got two examples of "it working right" (not the only two of course but I'm picking on them).

Let's take an example from the other end of the spectrum - a young vulnerable woman, emotionally insecure, craving love. She's not consenting out of mutual respect, her vulnerability impairs her common sense, and she may not have the awareness to understand the implications (short or long term) of the things she's consenting to. She's desperate not to lose "him", he's become her whole world.

There's an ocean of difference between these two scenarios.

To gungadin's point - Yes, getting written consent is certainly the least ambiguous way to get consent - Although I've had to endure enough days (days I'll never get back again) in rooms with Lawyers arguing over contracts to know that even when written down a list of "things" can be subject to widly (and wildly) different interpretations.

Crap - I have to run to my plane but...


How do you know someone is truly consenting and not just consenting out of fear, whether that fear be fear of punishment, fear of being left by a partner, fear of losing custody of children, etc? Is it wrong if they're consenting out of fear?


The only answer I can give here is "trust and communication". I've seen relationships where "fear of punishment" was used to coerce people into doing things that were good for them -"If you don't go to your classes you'll be punished...". I've never been in that situation because I wouldn't date a lady who needed to be coerced into going to classes - but that coercion does exist.

I've seen partners co-erced into all sorts of things for fear of losing a relationship. In these cases, if the other partner is unaware that that's what's happening then they're guilty of a lack of empathy, if they are aware then they're guilty of abuse.



How do you obtain and trust consent when consensual (or non-consensual) conditioning is going on?

Continuous communication. I think that you need to understand the goals of both parties. Party "A" may really want and need (and consent to) having structure imposed on her life. Forcing her to go to classes under pain of punishment may be "against her will", but it may meet the primary goal of "structure".

But it's gnarly. And, thankfully, not my cup of hippo.


And who is unfit to consent, and why?


In the UK (and largely in the US), fitness to consent is defined legally - It's built on the idea of "competence" - someone who is underage, mentally ill, or under the influence of drugs/alcohol is (largely) unfit to consent.

The nastiest, hardest, most controversial question is "mentally ill" - something that everyone has a different view on, and something that a jury in Arkansas may decide very very differently to a jury in California.

Morally I think the test is someone is unfit to consent when they don't understand the implications of what they're agreeing to.

Personally - I don't go for written contracts, I do go for safewords (with all the caveats and exceptions that need to go with them), I go for communication and empathy. And trust that I know myself and my partner well enough for this to suffice. In doing so I'm aware that a total nut job could leave me high and dry, but I really, really, try to avoid the nutters.

I'll be checking in at 5pm North Carolina time to read the other additions to this thread - it's fascinating.



_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 2:02:08 AM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes

I was dancing next to a knife pointed upwards.

"special".


Woah woah wooooooah-I missed this before. That wasn't a knife, that was a compliment. Did you miss the part right afterwards where I said they scared me in the good way? They scare me like the idea that there are people in my life who want me to shave their heads or STICK NEEDLES IN THEM (just as soon as I've learned how not to do it wrong) scares me.

_____________________________

Sthetic on FetLife.




(in reply to Twoshoes)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 2:17:30 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline 		If people are together in a sick relationship and one is keeping the other there with threats and violence, i don't think there really is any consensual thing going on... just abuser and victim kinda stuff.... very naff

For me: i have been with my Husband for 20 years, we have no contract other than our marriage certificate. During our time together things have happened that we did not consent to (not necessarily anything to do with fear), some awful mistakes have been made, we have struggled on and come out on top

In relationships shit happens, i don't think it is supposed to be all rosy, we are supposed to see the sticking points and find a way through, it is a challenge, it is how we grow and change


(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 5:13:38 AM   
agirl


Posts: 4530
Joined: 6/14/2004
Status: offline 		It all seems so complex when it's talked about , but so easy when to understand when you live it.

Like Aileen, M does what he wants to do with me, for me, TO me.........I've never talked about consent with him , never mentioned *limits*. They were all redundant conversations that never needed to be had.

I chose him and all that went along with that.  I couldn't possibly have given consent to everything that has taken place over all these years as I had no idea what would.

The only thing that our relationship needed was a certain BRAND of trust but if someone is sat on the bed threading fish-hooks, and you have no idea whether they are going through your lips (mouth), your labia, your breasts or anywhere else..........you'd better *trust*, you'd better *know* whether you have consented ....or you'd better be gone....lol

If you ever resent anything that's done *to* you , then something's gone awry.

agirl






(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 6:27:14 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
Do we all agree that consent is something that is taken into account before a relationship/scene gets underway, regardless of whether the question comes up again?


No, I do not agree. A scene? Probably. A relationship? Not necessarily. Two totally different examples. Sometimes the question never comes up. Sometimes just showing up constitutes consent on the part of both parties. Consent is not always something that people have to nail down in a nice neat little box. Sometimes it's just understood without a word spoken about it - even among people who have only just met in person. Call it implied consent if you want to or just chalk it up to spin or semantics. All I know is that we have never uttered or discussed the C word in any way. There was never a need to.

If you have to nail it down, go for it. Whatever works works. Sometimes two people meet who transcend negotiation.



(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 6:44:16 AM   
Aynne88


Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
Status: offline

Jujubee I guess I don't agree with that statement either. Even from out first encounter, which was really fast, we never had any of these discussions. Our first date was to go golfing, which we did, but afterwards, we had a few drinks at the clubhouse and wound up at his place, me blindfolded and tied up. I know, alcohol, being restrained, no safecalls, lol. I did it all wrong. I am so glad I did. .

Since that day, things just get hotter, more intimate and edgier and the biggest hottest thing for me (besides being in love of course) is never ever knowing what he is going to do to me next, and for me to lose that part of us would suck. I might as well be in a vanilla relationship with a somewhat Alpha male I think.

I want to be scared, I love being blindfolded and feeling my heart pounding and pulse racing like a rabbit in a snare, wondering what the fuck that sadistic man is coming up with now. Yep he has done things I hate, but it's still worth it.

Yes of course, this isn't for everyone. I love him as a person outside of kink, and I luckily chose a wonderful amazing man that loves me back, but in the beginning I didn't have a clue what he might do since we didn't discuss a thing, I just had a gut feeling that I needed to go with it, so I just pushed any doubts aside and jumped in.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)



(in reply to DomImus)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 7:08:56 AM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twoshoes
I was dancing next to a knife pointed upwards.
"special".

Woah woah wooooooah-I missed this before. That wasn't a knife, that was a compliment. Did you miss the part right afterwards where I said they scared me in the good way? They scare me like the idea that there are people in my life who want me to shave their heads or STICK NEEDLES IN THEM (just as soon as I've learned how not to do it wrong) scares me.


Yeah, I know what you meant (as a compliment towards them).

However, while I was still thinking about the words "special" and "scary", I realized the irony: I was being "special" in a completely different way at that very moment.

So I decided to make fun of my inattentiveness. But it didn't work out so well.

(in reply to VaguelyCurious)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 8:16:03 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl



If you ever resent anything that's done *to* you , then something's gone awry.

agirl




but isn't that kind of natural in M/s, at some point or other? there have been more than a few times i've resented something being done to me, or something i was made to do. but i still have that unwavering acceptance that 1. i chose this path many years ago; and 2. He can do whatever the ___ he wants with me, i'm his.



(in reply to agirl)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 8:19:23 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

but isn't that kind of natural in M/s, at some point or other?


Not in my relationship.  We're on the same team.  Resentment creates an adversarial relationship, even temporarily. 

If he wants to do something that I might end up resenting, he prepares me for it, first, and waits until I am ready.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Consent - 9/20/2010 8:34:19 AM   
daddysprop247


Posts: 1712
Joined: 6/24/2005
From: DC Metro area
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


Not in my relationship.  We're on the same team.  Resentment creates an adversarial relationship, even temporarily. 

If he wants to do something that I might end up resenting, he prepares me for it, first, and waits until I am ready.



well i am prepared first, in the sense that it will be explained to me what is going to happen and why. however that does not change the effect it will have on me mentally and emotionally.

i must admit i do not understand what you mean by waiting until you are "ready." at any moment i am "ready" to accept his will, whatever that may be. but if by "ready" you mean able to bear something easily and with zero emotional turmoil, well then if my Master waited for that moment very little would be accomplished in this relationship. also i disagree that resentment creates an adversarial relationship. one can resent without even the slightest sense of opposition or resistance. of course, that is possible because of acceptance...the most critical component of slavery, for me.




(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> General BDSM Discussion >> RE: Consent Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.078