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RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 12:56:58 PM   
GabrielleSlave


Posts: 616
Joined: 9/20/2007
From: in servitude
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ranja
For me personally, i am quite strong willed and can make my own decisions and take responsibility for myself... but actually being in charge makes me nervous and a bit insecure... and it pisses me off when i see people incharge of things when i think i could actually deal with it better, but i am not allowed or too chicken to take over.




You took the words right out of my mouth. i am perfectly capable of running my life, the house, the kids etc etc and have done it alone. But...Master is like the conductor to my orchestra. He recognises the need in me to serve, to be submissive, to be appreciated. It just so happens that He is also rather good at hitty stuff etc Before i met Him i had no idea what i had within me, what i was really capable of; He has enabled me to become the best person i can be at this moment. Did i have a choice? Certainly, as we all do in life. But i am who i am and would be without Him. The choice i have made has enriched me; i am still submissive, but i am a different submissive than i would be without Him.

_____________________________

Slave to Master Slayer

~ Host of the Rather Marvelous Greenwich Munch ~

"There is no such thing as liberty. You only change one sort of domination for another. All we can do is to choose our master."
D. H. Lawrence

(in reply to ranja)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 3:08:51 PM   
MalcolmNathaniel


Posts: 1394
Joined: 9/20/2010
Status: offline 		No choice.

I'm a geek.  That makes meeting people difficult to begin with.  "I like intelligent men," is something women say but don't really mean.  BDSM narrows my choices even further.


Or in geek speak:
Set A = Women who like geeks
Set B = Submissive women.
In the Venn diagram of The intersection of  sets A and B is very small.

No, I wouldn't be doing this if it wasn't necessary.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 5:36:32 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		For me, the sexual part is not a choice. i was mastrubating to BDSM fantasies before i knew what "BDSM" or "mastrubation" was. Sorry if i'm grossing anyone out. Just being honest. We all get turned on by something. i get turned on by the thought of being tied up. That much was there from the beginning, before i even had a chance to "choose".

The rest of it is a choice. Personality is a choice. Yes, a choice. At least it is for me. You see, i'm kind of a chameleon. i can be different things to different people. When my environment changes, i change. i know that's true for everyone, but it's especially true for me. i can be very dominant, aggressive, type A. i'm like that in a kitchen. i'm the bitch that gets shit done. But throw me in the front of the house, and i'm as soft and gentle as you please. i smooze with people. i can get inside their heads and get a feel for what they want. i'm good at "reading" others.

All this suprised me, going from the back of the house to the front. I remember how jarring it was to have to switch personalities. i felt like i was putting on an act. But then, i "became" the act- that person became me, became part of who i am. Another facet. The same thing happened when i started working in kitchens. The outspokenness, the aggression was jarring, but eventually i adapted to it, absorbing my environment like a sponge. It became part of me. i can be a myriad of different people. The only unifiers are ethics, perfectionism, and hard work.

Sometimes i don't understand myself. It would be easier to understand me if my personality were more static and predictable, but it's not. i'm not sure if that's good or bad. i realise what i've just described is probably true for everyone. We are all chameleons to some extent or other. Who acts the same on a job interview, on a date, messing around with friends, among colleages, by yourself? We all change to fit the situation we are in, but i think this is especially true for me. i feel a kind of "pull" from other people. i don't know what to call it, the desire to please, to do well, to succeed? (Don't get me wrong, though. i can be VERY stubborn when it comes to certain points). Displeasing others makes me uncomfortable. i'm not conscious of modifying my behavior to suit other people, but i'm sure i do. Who i AM is partially determined by who i'm WITH.

Anyway, to answer the question, for me the sexual aspect of submission was not a choice. As for the rest- my personality, how i interact with people? i dunno. i'm a chameleon. i change to fit different people and different situations, because i have a strong desire to please. In some instances, pleasing someone calls for a submissive personality. In others, a more dominant one. Is that a choice, or is it my temperament? i don't know.

pam




< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 9/24/2010 6:24:29 PM >

(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 6:30:12 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline 		It's a good question, but difficult to answer in the format asked. I don't do "D/s relationships" either. I have a relationship with someone with dominant tendencies and I have submissive ones. Our everyday relationship is about what works for us and suporting each other through the various difficulties that life tosses at us. If D/s is included in that, it is, if not, it's not. I don't think it's really as complicated as expecting a relationship to be anything other than what it ends up being personally. For us, it has worked to avoid focusing on all of the dynamic dogma and just be.

I have a sexual fetish for pain. It isn't a choice. It is how I am. Either in the switch role, vanilla or submissive, that doesn't go away. Thankfully I've found someone that I feel compatible with on many levels, not just d/s and/or bdsm that fulfills that need. The rest of the questions I think of feel are overthinking it. I think finding someone that is compatible and complentary to your life is much more important than any of the rest of this stuff. Once you find that, the rest falls into place the way it will be.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 6:31:11 PM   
Voodali


Posts: 255
Joined: 10/2/2007
Status: offline 		I wouldn't say I was born dominant so much as I was and am irresistably drawn to dominance.  If I had been BORN dominant, I imagine I would have bossed other kids around. Instead, I pretty much treated them with respect or left them alone, and expected them to do the same.  Their attempts to dominate me fell flat, and still do.  My attitude towards the general public is "live and let live", and not "kneel before me and do my bidding, disgusting worm".  That I reserve for someone special :).

I chose to be dominantly oriented because, when I started becoming attracted to boys, it was always the gentle, quiet, pretty, and at times effeminate ones I obsessed about.  Burly, manly, muscular and obnoxious boys were simply not interesting. The fantasies I formed were often of said bishonen creatures in positions of helplesness.  When I had my adolescent fling with vampires, I was the one doing the biting, not the victim.  When BDSM was introduced to me in the form of Velvet Underground's "Venus in Furs" and other little snippets of media, I thought "Yes.  That's for me."  Many further experiences in life simply confirmed this choice.  Given my tastes and beliefs, it is the most logical one.

Here are my percentages: 50% mental (creative challenge, fun analyzing perverts, coping mechanism), 40% emotional (or perhaps "chemical" would be a better word, since being dominant and sadistic to the right boy releases something in my brain that feels very nice)and maybe or maybe not 10% sexual.  For me, D/s and sex can exist independently of each other, but if I had to chose a life filled with one and deprived of the other, I'd choose the D/s.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 6:32:27 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		You are such a good girl!

I am going to hurt you next weekend!

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 6:33:03 PM   
laurell3


Posts: 6577
Joined: 5/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You are such a good girl!

I am going to hurt you next weekend!


Thank God.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to Jeffff)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/24/2010 7:13:09 PM   
daintydimples


Posts: 967
Joined: 7/6/2009
Status: offline 		Since I switch, I will speak from both sides of the kneel. Submission for me is primarily sex based; domination for me is primarily power based.

Although I am very sexually submissive, my basic personality is dominant (a shocker, I know!)

Being able to submit to a higher authority provides me much needed balance. I have the luxury of accessing the softer aspects of my personality, and am a much happier and well rounded person as a result.

This is a need, not a choice. As someone else mentioned, the choice is in WHO I submit to.

As a dominant, I have no interest in a sub who submits to anyone and everyone. Frankly, my response to someone with a highly submissive personality to to want to help them grow some cojones. I far prefer a challenging sub who will force me (I use the term force for a reason) to constantly reevaluate my leadership methods. One who will make me give very serious thought to everything I am doing in regards our power dynamic. This is the "fun" part for me. I find surrender freely and knowingly given, b/c I have inspired enough trust in the sub that they are able to submit so deeply, to be very sweet. That is the power rush for me.

Dominating someone just b/c I can? It doesn't do much for me.








_____________________________

Some soften by the forced reflection that comes from loss; others harden. Which are you?




(in reply to lally2)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 12:50:28 AM   
ranja


Posts: 2111
Joined: 11/1/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

You are such a good girl!

I am going to hurt you next weekend!


Thank God.


i just roman showered all over that

(in reply to laurell3)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 8:43:52 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl


A lot of Doms would tell you that I'm not submissive, but it's simply because they're not more dominant than I am.


or perhaps it's because you're not submissive. you yourself admit that you have an "alpha," leader-type personality. you do not have a submissive personality. but you choose to submit within a personal relationship...making you "a" submissive in the lifestyle sense, but not in the general sense. so perhaps those Dominants who say you are not submissive, are not less dominant than yourself but simply recognize you as someone who does not have a submissive personality.




See I think this actually gets to the core of the thread. I believe that she is a submissive if and when she choses to be one. It is totally irrelivent to me if she was born that way or if something in her upbringing made here that way, or if this is a consistant natural state, I could care less. It is her choice. And yes I do realize that most here would disagree with this, but there it is.

I am not talking about play acting here or pretending to be something that one is not, I am talking about the indivdual as a mutifaceted entity who is capable of being more then one single limiting conceptualization, in control of their own destiny, if they chose to do so. And I am talking about BDSM or D/s as being conscious actions rather then states of being. Is that possible?


But I think the primary question is;

Do we chose to do this for pleasure, or are we driven to do this by compulsion? AND. is one reason more worthy then the other.

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to daddysprop247)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 9:06:29 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlySton



See I think this actually gets to the core of the thread. I believe that she is a submissive if and when she choses to be one. It is totally irrelivent to me if she was born that way or if something in her upbringing made here that way, or if this is a consistant natural state, I could care less. It is her choice. And yes I do realize that most here would disagree with this, but there it is.



And you are well within your right, of course, to believe that.

Here's something to consider.  I have a love of music.  Almost all kinds of music.  Some music brings me to such an emotional place that I cry.  Some music annoys the crap out of me.  It is not a choice to me, whether or not I am moved to the point of tears, or whether I hate what I am listening to.  It is a response in me, fed by the music I am listening to.

The same could be said for my submission.  There are some people who, when interacting with me, something within me is moved to the point of naturally submitting to their will.  While others, well, I just want to leave the room they are in.

The emotions that are stirred up in me are not a choice.  What I do with those emotions is a choice, to a degree.  Meaning, I had to consciously hold back my desire to submit to Mr. Man until I got to know him well enough.  However, submitting to the man I love, within a relationship, is something that comes naturally to me.  To hold that back long term would be exhausting and, over time, I'd fall flat.

quote:


I am not talking about play acting here or pretending to be something that one is not, I am talking about the indivdual as a mutifaceted entity who is capable of being more then one single limiting conceptualization, in control of their own destiny, if they chose to do so. And I am talking about BDSM or D/s as being conscious actions rather then states of being. Is that possible?

Well for me, BDSM (the physical acts enjoyed) are a choice (unless of course he wants them, then it's his choice).  Who I am, within a relationship, is simply who I am. If I am going to live a fulfilling and happy life, I can not stifle who I am.  So, sure, submitting can be viewed as a choice, but if I choose not to submit to him, then I am choosing to stifle the true nature of who I am, at my core.  Not a wise choice, in my opinion.  Been there, done that.

So I abbreviate it by saying submitting isn't a choice, because I'm looking at the unpeeled layers of who I am.  It's not a choice if I'm going to be happy in my relationship.  It's not a choice if I just be who I am and behave accordingly.  It's not a choice on any conscious level.  It can be a choice on a conscious level, which would have long term negative results.

quote:


But I think the primary question is;

Do we chose to do this for pleasure, or are we driven to do this by compulsion? AND. is one reason more worthy then the other.


Neither, actually.  I do this so I can express myself at my most natural level, and so I can freely be who I am.  That fulfills me, as a person.

And I am not a judge of what is more or less worthy for someone else.  That's really up to others to decide, in their own self reflections. 


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 12:55:12 PM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Nueva said:
I do this so I can express myself at my most natural level, and so I can freely be who I am.

*laughs* Or, put another way. Carol and I are too lazy to spend the next 40 years swimming upstream. I don't think either one of us can tolerate another round of "Where do you want to go to dinner? -- I don't know, where do YOU want to go?"

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 1:30:48 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527
I don't think either one of us can tolerate another round of "Where do you want to go to dinner? -- I don't know, where do YOU want to go?"


LOL I hate that!


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to leadership527)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 2:19:21 PM   
Tetron


Posts: 48
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		To answer the question of the original poster I believe there are, as has been mentioned to aspects to being a dominant and being a submissive. The first aspect is what you were born as, the second is what you choose to express. I believe from my own research, and experience, that women are born submissive and some men are born dominant (I will get back to the some in a minute). What they choose to express depends alot on how they were raised and the culture they were raised in. Given the culture or the US, alot of women have trouble connecting with their submissive natures so express it only in the bedroom, or repress it all together, alot of women are hurt either in trying out submission, or simply in the course of their life and as a protective move become dominant, hoping control could shield them. Men are encouraged by society to always view women as equals, being dominant is highly frowned upon, and discouraged. Alot of men who had the potential to be dominant have retreated from it because it is so highly disliked by our society. Even more men have found that if they are willing to submit to women, espeically those who are trying to protect themselves it is an easy way to get sex, fulfilling the strongest instinct males have. As to the some men I mentioned earlier, as far as my research and experience can tell, only about 10% of men are born dominants or alpha males, the rest are born beta males, this seems to go back to pack behavior among humans and early primates.

As was mentioned in another post, most couples will be unable to fulfill all the needs of their partner. This is not a bad thing, and attempting to fulfill all those needs can even be dangerous. There are two solutions to this, and I think the best result comes from using both. The first, and most obvious is friendships, alot of the needs you cant fulfill with your partner can be fulfilled with friendships. The second, and given the way society works today the far more difficult to execute correctly is the poly relationship, as I believe men were born dominant and women submissive I belief our genetics drives alpha males, and women towards this type of relationship, not only does it help fulfill all the needs we dont get from a single partner, it also gives the women in the relationship a perfect person to talk to, someone who shares their exact experiences and therefore can easily discuss and understand them. There is alot of science behind my theories, alot of research and other information, and those who wish to know it may message me, but including it here would take up far more space then I already have.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 2:26:14 PM   
sweetsub1957


Posts: 2201
Joined: 4/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone



On to the question:
SO, IF YOU CHOSE to be a dominant or a submissive in a D/s or BDSM dynamic; and yes, in my opinion it is a choice, you were not born to be a dominant or a submissive, or slave/master or whatever you call it, they may be inate traits you carry, they may be expressions of your enviornment, who really gives a shit after all, but the point is that you have chosen to apply those traits or tendencies in a certain way ie D/s BDSM.

My question is; what percent of that choice is based on sexual need, emotional need, or a coping mechanism to get through the day, or none of the above, in which case what is your choice based on. And if you feel it is not a choice, why is that?


Being submissive is not a choice for me. I have attempted to not be, and i failed. Being submissive is just who I am. I've tried multiple 'nilla relationships and was left unfulfilled, just as I've tried to be Dominant and was also left unfulfilled. have always felt submissive in my relationships and I was born submissive as far as I'm concerned, because I've tried and tried not to be and it always felt unnatural. Now I've just accepted it and I'm much happier just being me. I am perfectly able to control my own life in everyday living situations, but it has never felt natural to me, nor have I been happy, when I try to do that in any intimate-type M/f relationship I've been in.

I feel that my being submissive is based on a combination of things....emotional need and sexual need. Even if the sex is mostly so-called vanilla, I still need that power exchange in the rest of the relationship...that knowing that He is in control. The kinky sex and His control in the bedroom is nice, too and it's "the icing on the cake." But like I say, even with 'nilla sex, I still need to know He's in control otherwise, so I don't think it's all based on sex. I like to feel His control in and out of the bedroom. That's when I am the happpiest.

~sweetsub~

_____________________________

Member: Lance's Fag Hags.

"That's not just a chip on her shoulder, that's the whole potato!" ~Lady Angelika~

In lowering yourself to talking behind my back, you're perfectly positioned to kiss my ass.

An it harm none, do what ye wilt.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 6:02:49 PM   
odysseyIndeed


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/30/2009
Status: offline 		I have a submissive nature and have as long as I can think back. Even choices I made and things I enjoyed as a preschooler were submissive in nature. It has very little to do with sexual need because I was submissive long before I was interested or aware of sex. I'm submissive even when I'm not involved with Anyone and sex is the last thing on my mind.
I'm not sure if it is an emotional need but I do know that I feel very fulfilled when I am serving the needs of those I care for.
It's possible some of it is a coping mechanism, not sure. I do know that when I am feeling very out of sorts, being .. reminded of my boundaries, often calms me.
I don't play casually and the actual full D/s dynamic happens for me when I am in a committed long-term relationship.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/25/2010 8:08:30 PM   
takemeforyourown


Posts: 430
Joined: 2/24/2007
Status: offline 		At this point I only act out my submissive nature sexually, as I am a full-time breadwinner in real life. If there were a way to be submissive 24/7, to depend on a man to provide my every need?...I would like to try it, but I'm not sure I could go with it long-term. I only became conscious of my submissiveness after decades of providing and caring for myself.

(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/26/2010 8:11:43 AM   
SlyStone


Posts: 398
Joined: 12/23/2006
From: Chicago
Status: offline
quote:

o I abbreviate it by saying submitting isn't a choice, because I'm looking at the unpeeled layers of who I am.






Speaking of pealing layers away, I have always been interested in the dichotomy that exists when a man or woman is dominant in the work force etc. and yet takes on the role of a submissive when engaging in D/s or BDSM. Which is the role and which is the natural state? Is what brings us pleasure always what comes naturally or do we pick and chose and filter along the way? How many layers need to be peeled away to get to the core, and do we really want/need to know what lies there? "I am what I am" can be a positive statement of self acceptance, but it can also be a weary statement of defeat.

There are of course no answer to these questions, we are all unique individuals, but I think generally speaking if given the choice many if not most would chose to be their "natural selves", it is after all the internal path of least resistance. Of course we also have to deal with external societal resistance, and while that can sometimes by a positive and necessary thing, it can also lead to confusion and sadness, and that is unfortunate indeed.

< Message edited by SlyStone -- 9/26/2010 8:16:53 AM >

_____________________________

Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.

Anais Nin

(in reply to NuevaVida)
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RE: Choice or no choice - 9/26/2010 8:35:19 AM   
lexey


Posts: 17
Joined: 6/28/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone




My question is; what percent of that choice is based on sexual need, emotional need, or a coping mechanism to get through the day, or none of the above, in which case what is your choice based on. And if you feel it is not a choice, why is that?



The 100% craving I have for the D/s dynamic forces me towards the 100% desire I have for the sexual BDSM interaction.

Sure, it's a choice, but there's some serious innate-ness going on for me regarding all things kinky.

Quite an all-over question, but it made me think, so thanks for that.

(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Choice or no choice - 9/26/2010 10:58:00 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SlyStone

quote:

o I abbreviate it by saying submitting isn't a choice, because I'm looking at the unpeeled layers of who I am.






Speaking of pealing layers away, I have always been interested in the dichotomy that exists when a man or woman is dominant in the work force etc. and yet takes on the role of a submissive when engaging in D/s or BDSM. Which is the role and which is the natural state? Is what brings us pleasure always what comes naturally or do we pick and chose and filter along the way? How many layers need to be peeled away to get to the core, and do we really want/need to know what lies there? "I am what I am" can be a positive statement of self acceptance, but it can also be a weary statement of defeat.



I am not a one-dimensional personality.  There are many facets to me.  For the most part, I am mostly a leader - at work, with my family, with friends...I am looked to, to make decisions and take care of things.  I do it well, and it comes naturally to me.

For some reason, my interaction inside an intimate relationship is much different.  Maybe it's some inbred nature in me that says a man is the head of his house and his woman belongs to him.  Yes, I know that's going to send a lot of people shaking their heads in disagreement, but like I said, it's just some underlying belief I have, even though I fully understand and accept there are so many different relationship types that work, and my belief for myself is not a universal truth.

That said, the man needs to be head of my household.  It's how I function best, in a relationship.  I need him to have authority over me, and I need him to be able to overpower me.   I can't tell you why; it just is.

And it's not a way to "get relief from being in charge everywhere else," as I see tossed around as a viable notion from time to time.  It may be viable to some, but not to me.  I think, like a prism, I reflect many colors, depending on where I am.  I like classical and I like rock. I like (some) country and I like funk and disco.  No one questions why (ok maybe the disco part), I just do, depending on my mood. Each type of music draws from a different place in me, and gives me a different kind of experience.  Each reflects a facet of my personality. 

Inside my home (relationship), I defer to the Chief. It gives me an incredible sense of peace and security to do so, and it comes naturally.  Outside of him, it's a different ball game.  Once again, each circumstance reflects a different facet of me.

quote:



There are of course no answer to these questions, we are all unique individuals, but I think generally speaking if given the choice many if not most would chose to be their "natural selves", it is after all the internal path of least resistance. Of course we also have to deal with external societal resistance, and while that can sometimes by a positive and necessary thing, it can also lead to confusion and sadness, and that is unfortunate indeed.


Being myself has never led me to confusion and sadness.  Trying to be something I'm not, however, has.


_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to SlyStone)
Profile   Post #: 60
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