RE: equals?

RE: equals? (Full Version)

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babyblues -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 8:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble Where did you get the idea that what I am is a choice I have made rather than simply embraced the orientation which is true to my natural self? I no more chose to be a slave than I chose to be a woman. I just am. What the law grants me is less powerful than Himself and holds no validity to the station of my life. i think you said this perfectly....and i also know that someone who hasn't felt this level of submission would never understand it...there is no equality in a Master/slave relationship....how can you be equal to someone who controls every aspect of your life? it doesn't even make sense to me

SweetSarijane -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 8:15:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross Everyone in any sort of intimate long term relationship needs to "equally" agree to the relationship, and work to maintain the relationship and the ideals on which it was formed. Meaning- if one doesn't, the entire thing falls apart. That's about it. Equality after that pretty much falls apart. This is true in vanilla relationships as well- rarely are two people completely equally suited or desiring to do all the same things at all the same time. You said my basic thoughts and better than I could think to express them. It takes both (or more as in poly) working on the mutually agreed parameters and dynamic for the relationship to work. There's the basic equality. The roles of the individuals in the relationship may not necessarily translate as equal, but the work to build and maintain the relationship should be.

BitaTruble -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 8:35:17 AM)
quote: It is the rarity that I disagree with ownedgirlie or Celeste. That's ok, Level. One can't be right all the time. ;) quote: The definition of equal I go by is: "Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another". A fair definition to use and I don't dispute it. In fact, I believe I posted something along those lines earlier. quote: I don't look at measure of power in determining equality in a D/s or M/s relationship. This is where we actually differ because power is the only measure I use in the determination of a D/s relatioship. That's what makes it a D/s relationship otherwise it's just a relationship. I asked Julia this question and it went unanswered, so perhaps you'll answer it. Where does the dominance begin when all things are equal? quote: The arguments have been made as to whether one can pick up and go out the door, thus re-balancing power. If one doesn't look at power as the determining factor in a D/s relationship, then indeed, one can get up and leave at any time they choose. They can obey if and when they feel like it, they can do anything they desire. They have choices because they are equal. I find this is often the case when one gives their power to another. I don't find it's the case when one has their power taken from them. Under the broadest definitions, any human is equal to any other human. As soon as you put any two humans into any relationship, the definitions narrow and become refined based on the sort of relationship they have with one another. Boss/employee, parent/minor child, teacher/student. All of those are 'equal' as person to person... none of those are equal 'relationships'. In each of those cases one person is above the other 'in that relationship' based on the power one holds. The exception to me would be a Husband/Wife. That can be an equal relationship. Neither is above the other, one does not have more power but that ain't D/s. ;) quote: I look at value. As human beings. And if that isn't there, something is terribly wrong. Level Hmm.. interesting. One could suppose there is something terribly wrong in the relationship with I share with Himself and yet, it doesn't feel wrong. We are both content, happy and it's been working for 10 years. Sometimes he treats me like a footstool and strips away my humanity completely. If the fact that I'm human is the only measure of value which I have, does that mean when he treats me like I'm a footstool that I then become worthless? Ok, that was a bit tic, but seriously, if everyone is equal just because we're all human, why is it so hard to find a partner? Wouldn't one human be as good as another? Or is it true that you actually do find being human isn't enough and you look for specific qualities and refinements which make a particular human 'more' valuable to 'you' and would make a relationship with you 'better'? Are you really looking for equal because if so, collarme has about 50,000 woman on it so just pick one and get started! As the saying goes.. some people are 'more equal than others'. ::chuckles:: I'm really quite curious. I love this debate, always have, no doubt always will. hehehe Come and play with me Level! Celeste

juliaoceania -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 8:53:16 AM)
I didn't see the that question. I think of it as a totality thing... I do not think of it as a power thing. I have many skills, attributes, strengths, and assets to give to my One. They are different then his, and in the totality of who we are I am not his inferior or less than he is. I do not judge myself or another based on what we like sexually and in the dynamic of our relationship. I am deferential to the men in my life because I perceive they DESERVE it. You know D/s relationships are not all that different than any other relationship you have in life... You treat people as equals in the sense they deserve your respect or dont have a relationship with them. I have this teenage son, and I am his authority in life right now. He is my equal in someways, my inferior in others, and my superior in other regards. I admire my kid, he is brilliant and unbelieveably kind.. He is more tactful than I am and more diplomatic than me. He has never been and he will never be my inferior.,... EVER. I guess maybe I am looking for a "daddy dom" in some ways... Someone I respect, someone that I look up to, but someone who sees my strengths and assets and pushes me to grow as an individual because they arent threatened that the student may surpass the teacher

BitaTruble -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 9:20:22 AM)
quote: You know D/s relationships are not all that different than any other relationship you have in life... You treat people as equals in the sense they deserve your respect or dont have a relationship with them. Thanks for answering my question, Julia! I must say that the relationship I have with Himself is vastly different from every other relationship in my life. In addition, it so far surpasses any other D/s relationship I've ever had that it makes them look vanilla by comparison. ::chuckles:: I understand treating people as equals and I try to do that unless they show me by word or deed they are undeserving of such, but I can't look at Himself the way I look at my accountant. They are not equals in my eyes. One is my accountant ::and don't get me wrong, we have a great accountant, he's a swell guy:: and the other is Master which automatically elevates him above everyone else, me included ... in my eyes. I am biased, prejudiced and a slew of other adjectives but at the same time I'm a realist and I know that I'm the only one who feels the way I do about Himself. He is not just another human to me. He's not my equal and I am not his. As long as he is Master... I am slave and equality doesn't enter into that dynamic for me. Celeste

juliaoceania -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 9:35:17 AM)
That is your view on your dynamic of your relationship. If that works for you and makes you feel at peace and happy then it is a good thing! I do not compare any relationship with others in the way you suggest. I was merely pointing out that there are other relationships where people have authority over others and they are DIFFERENT and have strengths and weaknesses. I have read Dom/mes on this board that described their subs as tools... WOW... I am not a tool or an employee. For me it does not diminish my one to say I surpass him in some ways and I am inferior in others, but I am always equal in my humanity.. it does not diminish my submission, it enhances it because I am exchanging my power for something else. It is an exchange. I am giving and he is supposed to also. He gives me a sense of being protected and cherished and respected.... Mostly he inspires me to be more than I am today because he knows me and my needs and where I want to go. I give him the authority to help me get there.

BitaTruble -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 9:40:37 AM)
quote: For me it does not diminish my one to say I surpass him in some ways and I am inferior in others, but I am always equal in my humanity.. it does not diminish my submission, it enhances it because I am exchanging my power for something else. It is an exchange. I am giving and he is supposed to also. He gives me a sense of being protected and cherished and respected.... Mostly he inspires me to be more than I am today because he knows me and my needs and where I want to go. I give him the authority to help me get there. It seems to me that each of us has what we need and that each of us is content which just goes to show that life is diverse and can be successful no matter how you live it. Thank you for being happy for my happiness and I'm happy for your happiness, too! Ok, enough of the mushy stuff. Good thread, Julia.. thanks for starting it. Celeste

enthralled -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 10:09:04 AM)
I do believe that (in essense) a Dominant and submissive are equals ... just on *opposite* ends of the spectrum. It doesnt make me feel any less of a human, inferior, OR beneath anyone; to the contrary, I feel empowered in that I will make the choice in who I serve. I honestly have the belief that I will know the right one when I'm compelled to call him 'Master'- not asked to, not told to, not having it demanded of me . . . compelled. It's not that you chose to be 'beneath' anyone or that they think of you that way dear, it's that you can't help but want to be there. Respectfully, enthralled http://www.submissiveloving.com/substrength.html

MsIncognito -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 10:10:28 AM)
I once saw a description of the partners in a D/s relationship that went something like this: "Unequal in power or station but equal in worth and responsibility." I think that pretty much sums it up. Just because a submissive chooses to submit doesn't make them of lesser value as a human being than the dominant but it does make them of lesser station (ie the submissive subjugates themselves to the dominant's needs/wants/desires). They choose a lesser station. I have a hard time understanding why someone would insist that D/s relationships are equal when by their very definition they are not. If someone wants equality in a relationship then they shouldn't be poking around this website [:D] Celeste, this message is not directed at you, it's just a general comment. This is one of those rare occassions where I actually read the whole thread before responding and you're just happened to be the last message in the thread.

BitaTruble -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 10:23:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito I once saw a description of the partners in a D/s relationship that went something like this: "Unequal in power or station but equal in worth and responsibility." I agree with the first part, but equal in worth and responsibility isn't exclusive to a D/s based relationship, rather it would apply to most relationships, vanilla included, which include intimacy as part of their ongoing dynamic. Celeste

thetammyjo -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 10:28:25 AM)
I think the word equal can be used in a variety of ways. The person who submits or serves me must first be equal to me in the following ways: 1) sense that they can consent to the relationship as much as I can 2) sense that they are as intelligent and able as I am in general though not in identical ways 3) sense that they can make their own choices as an adult just as I can outside of our established Ds dynamics 4) sense that should this relationship end we eat will survive and become stronger people after it

Prunesquallor -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 10:40:00 AM)
A submissive is inferior in power, equal in worth.

LaTigresse -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 11:41:25 AM)
It appears to be all in the perception of the terminology

pgqosk -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 12:14:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie A great definition for symbiosis that I saw is: "The ultimate living together of two dissimilar organisms in a mutually beneficial relationship." Is that not where we are... And if that is the case, while we continue to say D/s and M/s is all about the Master or Dominant, it is ultimately about both, is it not? This does not, however, make us equals. He leads and I follow. He commands, and I obey. He makes the rules, and I follow them. He is the authority, and I subjugate to him. Silly cliche' - - It takes two to tango, but only one can lead. Main Entry: sub·mit [image]http://www.m-w.com/images/audio.gif[/image] Pronunciation: sub-'mit Function: verb Inflected Form(s): sub·mit·ted; sub·mit·ting Etymology: Middle English submitten, from Latin submittere to lower, submit, from sub- + mittere to send transitive senses 1 a : to yield to governance or authority SURRENDER b : to permit oneself to be subjected to something 2 : to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another I very much like the idea presented here by ownedgirlie... that a M/s or D/s relationship is a symbiotic one. I think that is very true in many lasting relationships even in the 'nilla world. I think that there is a lot of give and take, and that the idea of yin and yang fir in as nicely as symbiosis does. The one draws from the other, and by such it is made better in the process... and is completed. Now, I also think that a good and lasting D/s relationship has 'nilla times and lifestyle times. I feel there has to be a great friendship developed at a level of equals that the D/s relationship can then grow from. At the point that the relationship moves into the D/s roles, I then believe in part 2 of the definition that was also offered by ownedgirlie... the submissive chooses, "to defer to or consent to abide by the opinion or authority of another". That does not mean they lessen themselves. That means they are choosing to give over control of things, and to be nourished in ways they need to be in so doing. But as anything... it is only one person's opinion. Steven--

DigitBox -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 3:06:37 PM)
quote: but but but...what does that mean?? i believe in the yin and yan thing in a D/s relationship, the you complete me thing...not the beneath me thing...or is there differences? is there exceptions? is a slave less worthy then her master only because she surrenders her whole being to him? personnally, i dont think so! but, where is the lign here? is there a lign? Does the terms submission means inferiority? or the opposite, as in, dominance = superiority? for a lot of doms, it does seems so.... What do you think? I don't see it as a state of inferiority to be submissive. No more than one is superior as a dominant. It's a power relationship, it's about who leads and who follows for me.

murmur -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 4:01:22 PM)
wow...i'm still takinga lots of little notes here!!! [:D] First of all, i want to thank every each of you for posting. It confused me a lot sometimes, but it helped me clear out my questions and the new ones who made themselves known while reading the posts. (another thread sometimes, maybe? [;)]) I knew that doms and subs werent equals by their position towards each others, but the way those doms were talking about it, they were qualifying subs as inferior as human beings only because their nature was to surrender. That's what troubled me the most. I guess it just puts me in a reflexion state about what i really want out of a D/s....if (lol) what i want IS a D/s...i'll keep read the forums, maybe i'll find it [:)] But you all helped me (and for sure, a lot of others) so much, i cant thank you enough for that... thanks !!!!!!!

juliaoceania -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 4:14:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: murmur wow...i'm still takinga lots of little notes here!!! [:D] First of all, i want to thank every each of you for posting. It confused me a lot sometimes, but it helped me clear out my questions and the new ones who made themselves known while reading the posts. (another thread sometimes, maybe? [;)]) I knew that doms and subs werent equals by their position towards each others, but the way those doms were talking about it, they were qualifying subs as inferior as human beings only because their nature was to surrender. That's what troubled me the most. I guess it just puts me in a reflexion state about what i really want out of a D/s....if (lol) what i want IS a D/s...i'll keep read the forums, maybe i'll find it [:)] But you all helped me (and for sure, a lot of others) so much, i cant thank you enough for that... thanks !!!!!!! I don't blame you for feeling that way, but there are many dom/mes that dont feel subs are inferior, tools, employees, or of "lesser station" because they chose to respect and follow what they say, and it is a choice. If you decide you want to make that choice just make sure you submit to someone that does not in any way shape or form feel this makes you "beneath" them. It is not only possible to find such a One, it is likely if you are selective. On edit I wanted to say if it makes you satisfied and happy to serve in a way which you feel that you do not seek being an "equal" then that is what makes you happy and satisfies you, nothing wrong with that, whatever floats people's boats and makes them happy. We all have one life to live and should live it the way that gives us peace and joy

Level -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 4:40:04 PM)
quote: It is the rarity that I disagree with ownedgirlie or Celeste. That's ok, Level. One can't be right all the time. ;) That's what everybody else keeps telling me, buncha fibbers [:-]. quote: The definition of equal I go by is: "Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another". A fair definition to use and I don't dispute it. In fact, I believe I posted something along those lines earlier. You did indeed. You also said "Having the same rights or status. Being equal means being the same. " These certainly can be definitions of "equal", but are not what I emphasized in my post. I am looking at "value". The value of a human being. quote: I don't look at measure of power in determining equality in a D/s or M/s relationship. This is where we actually differ because power is the only measure I use in the determination of a D/s relatioship. That's what makes it a D/s relationship otherwise it's just a relationship. I asked Julia this question and it went unanswered, so perhaps you'll answer it. Where does the dominance begin when all things are equal? But I never said "all things are equal".......... I said (or meant) the two (or more) human beings involved in the relationship were equal in value. His life does not mean more than yours. We may simply have to agree to disagree on this lol, because you will be hard-pressed to convince me otherwise. Now, some might point out that not all human life is of equal value, and use someone like Hitler as an example. I would say that even his life was inherently of value, but he obviously chose to ignore that with his actions. It takes a great deal to destroy human value. quote: The arguments have been made as to whether one can pick up and go out the door, thus re-balancing power. If one doesn't look at power as the determining factor in a D/s relationship, then indeed, one can get up and leave at any time they choose. They can obey if and when they feel like it, they can do anything they desire. They have choices because they are equal. I find this is often the case when one gives their power to another. I don't find it's the case when one has their power taken from them. Under the broadest definitions, any human is equal to any other human. As soon as you put any two humans into any relationship, the definitions narrow and become refined based on the sort of relationship they have with one another. Boss/employee, parent/minor child, teacher/student. All of those are 'equal' as person to person... none of those are equal 'relationships'. In each of those cases one person is above the other 'in that relationship' based on the power one holds. The exception to me would be a Husband/Wife. That can be an equal relationship. Neither is above the other, one does not have more power but that ain't D/s. ;) Again, I did not mean all things were equal in the relationship, just an equality of value as human beings. quote: I look at value. As human beings. And if that isn't there, something is terribly wrong. Hmm.. interesting. One could suppose there is something terribly wrong in the relationship with I share with Himself and yet, it doesn't feel wrong. We are both content, happy and it's been working for 10 years. Sometimes he treats me like a footstool and strips away my humanity completely. If the fact that I'm human is the only measure of value which I have, does that mean when he treats me like I'm a footstool that I then become worthless? Ok, that was a bit tic, but seriously, if everyone is equal just because we're all human, why is it so hard to find a partner? Wouldn't one human be as good as another? Or is it true that you actually do find being human isn't enough and you look for specific qualities and refinements which make a particular human 'more' valuable to 'you' and would make a relationship with you 'better'? Are you really looking for equal because if so, collarme has about 50,000 woman on it so just pick one and get started! I certainly don't think there is anything terribly wrong with you and yours. Not that I know of lol. I often look at the two of you, as well as owned, as sound examples of what can be developed in this lifestyle. As for finding a partner that's "more valuable to you", well sure. But that does not remove the value from the rest of the dating pool, in terms of the human value that I spoke of. Just because I don't want to partner with X does not remove that value... if it did, then couldn't I be ethically defended if I decided to put a bullet in their head? At worst, I was not as clear as I'd like to be in my initial post.... chalk it up to typing with one eye on the clock smiles....

ownedgirlie -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 6:26:03 PM)
But but but...............I said this: "If by inferior you mean its definition of lower degree or rank, then that is what I do, however if you mean its definition of little or less importance or value, I could not do that, either. In fact, I feel more valued and important now in my submission to him than I ever have in my life. " And then you said you disagreed.... quote: ORIGINAL: Level It is the rarity that I disagree with ownedgirlie or Celeste. But then you said this: quote: But I never said "all things are equal".......... I said (or meant) the two (or more) human beings involved in the relationship were equal in value. So we agree....no? So, I hereby disagree with your disagreement....heh

MsIncognito -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 6:31:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BitaTruble quote: ORIGINAL: MsIncognito I once saw a description of the partners in a D/s relationship that went something like this: "Unequal in power or station but equal in worth and responsibility." I agree with the first part, but equal in worth and responsibility isn't exclusive to a D/s based relationship, rather it would apply to most relationships, vanilla included, which include intimacy as part of their ongoing dynamic. Celeste I agree, which is also consistent with my belief that D/s relationships aren't inherently that different or better or more special than vanilla relationships.

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