RE: equals? (Full Version)

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Level -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 6:53:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

But but but...............I said this: 
 
"If by inferior you mean its definition of lower degree or rank, then that is what I do, however if you mean its definition of little or less importance or value, I could not do that, either.  In fact, I feel more valued and important now in my submission to him than I ever have in my life. "

And then you said you disagreed....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

It is the rarity that I disagree with ownedgirlie or Celeste.
 

But then you said this:
quote:
 
But I never said "all things are equal".......... I said (or meant) the two (or more) human beings involved in the relationship were equal in value.


So we agree....no?

So, I hereby disagree with your disagreement....heh


Hulk head hurt!! Too much thinking!!! Raaarrrrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhh!!!
 
lol owned.....yes, I think we agree. Again, I was in too much of a hurry to get ready for work, and did not give as careful a reading as I should have before posting. I see a lot of common ground  between us in your "yin and yang" analogy too.... so, forgive this tired Texan, and as I stated to Celeste, I have a great deal of respect for ya'll.
 
Level



feastie -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 7:02:47 PM)

M/s, D/s, vanilla, chocolate...whatever the heck you classify your relationship as, the bottom line is that indeed, it takes the two of you to act as the other half to make the equation work.  Symbiosis is exactly what it is, in any form.  If you'll take a good look at the yin and yang...they are...equal.  Each fulfills his or her own part, destiny, role, place to make the relationship work.  Certainly, one may be better at some things than the other, but it works in reverse too. 

Think about it this way...

If you were less, would you be more to your partner?  Would you be all?

Giving up your personal power does not make you equal or inferior to your partner.  It just makes you opposite.



truesub4u -> RE: equals? (4/24/2006 8:25:33 PM)

This is one of those threads I've ran in outta of all day long. Not being sure on how to respond to it. Then Level said something that caught my attention. And it made me think of my idiot ex husband (he was one of my vanilla ex mistakes that I use to drive big 18's with) We had been married about 4 days... week tops.... I had been driving truck about 5 more years than he. Well we was waiting for a load outside of Bakersfield.... at TA truck stop off the GrapeVine out there. Were we discussing a load board information.... and what loads to possibly take outta California. When this man turned and looked at me... telling me to shut up. Every person in the room stood their stunded. After picking my jaw up off the ground... I asked him what the hell his problem was. And he had the balls to look at me... and tell me... that I was his wife... nothing more... and that he would never be able to consider me an equal. Well after we all got through laughing....I left him sitting there as I laughed my way down the road driving our truck to our next loading point. I've not seen him sense. Divorced through the mail system.

Now the reason behind me telling this.... is because it's not a fact of being equal ..... it's a fact of knowing simply when not to make that stupid statement to someone. Male and or female. Thinking this ...... and voicing it... are really two different things here. I believe in it being what you think you are an equal in ... and what not. It's not about who has control... who has power.... no one can say who has all that... and who doesn't. It's all in dynamics of what relationship.

Now I know me... being the strong headed stubborn bitch that I am... if one approaches me... tells me i'll never be equal.... after I get done laughing.... depending on my mood... they will find out they're not equal to anything either... not even dog shit. I don't have to be equal.... but I damn straight will be respected.... and treated as a human being. I may be a submissive... but i'm not going to let someone tell me I can't be me..... telling someone they're not an equal... is to me... trying to tell someone.. they will never be worth anything.. to anyone... even themselves.... how are you suppose to encourage a sub/slave to grow... if they'll never be equal to anything or anyone?

and no I do not think i'm going off topic with this either..... I understand that the discussion is based on the whole D/s M/s structure...... and a Dom and or Master may be higher in the community than a sub and or slave... but damn... trying to say who is and is not an equal.... as people..... humans.... Ok, exmaple of what i'm refering to... being unowned... and ummmm.... let's ee.... Level... yeah I'll use Level... he's a Dom/Master (which I do not know) For him to approach me... and right off the bat.. try to make me feel... i'm not an equal.. to the MAN who is approaching WOMAN.. to TALK to.. well hell.. hope he finds that the pier is shorter than he though and will be all wet before he knows it. Now after the fact..a few e-mails.... chats... . he shows and it's established... that he is a Dom/Master... and I a submissive/slave.... he respectfully states that he feels a submissive should not be equal to him... then let the discussion begin.... and see what cards land where. He'l either come out ahead... or have to start all over again with someone else.

It's not what everyone else decides is right or wrong..... it's what he and I would decide after the discussion is over. ( Hope it wasn't too painful Level...LOL)

Ok.. I'm done ranting somewhat... I just think the whole discussion on equals... is damn near as bad as sub/slave. It's all in how the ones involved decide it should be.



ExistentialSteel -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 2:30:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: feastie
Giving up your personal power does not make you equal or inferior to your partner.  It just makes you opposite.


Yeah, that is it. We are talking about two different things.



Level -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 4:10:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

For him to approach me... and right off the bat.. try to make me feel... i'm not an equal.. to the MAN who is approaching WOMAN.. to TALK to.. well hell.. hope he finds that the pier is shorter than he though and will be all wet before he knows it. Now after the fact..a few e-mails.... chats... . he shows and it's established... that he is a Dom/Master... and I a submissive/slave.... he respectfully states that he feels a submissive should not be equal to him... then let the discussion begin.... and see what cards land where. He'l either come out ahead... or have to start all over again with someone else.

It's not what everyone else decides is right or wrong..... it's what he and I would decide after the discussion is over. ( Hope it wasn't too painful Level...LOL)

Ok.. I'm done ranting somewhat... I just think the whole discussion on equals... is damn near as bad as sub/slave. It's all in how the ones involved decide it should be.



Not painful at all, true [;)]. I enjoyed seeing your thoughts, and I would not be one to come off as superior to another, or I would hope not. I have my way of doing things, and that's not it. As for what I am.... began as "submissive" a very long time ago, then bottom, then switch (which is still valid), then dominant... and ever closer to desiring to own another... I think all that will be decided in the next couple of years for me, and I may turn away from this all together.... which does not mean I stop being what I am. How's that for a cryptic cliff-hanger? lol....
 
Level



bandit25 -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 4:14:15 AM)

Level, what an interesting post.  I like the way you described the changes you went through and are continuing to go through.



Level -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 5:07:11 AM)

Thank you, bandit. It's hard to put into words, at least for me. It's like a quickening (not sure if that's the correct word).... everything gets clearer and does so faster as time goes on.....
 
Level



truesub4u -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 5:42:57 AM)

Level... I didn't know you was a Highlander!... [;)]



petcerina -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 5:57:12 AM)

i might be called a fake for what i'm about to say, but thankfully i'm strong enough in my submission to know i'm not. 

For me, right now in the relationship that i have with my Master (which is still new compared to some), it is the illusion of power exchange.  Anything that Master asks me to do, i double check it.  Most things have become so automatic, the check in my own head is instantaneous and unconciously made.  However, Master likes the fact that i keep Him in reality and occasionally He'll come up with something and i'll look at Him with a smile and say, "You know W/we can't do that," and He'll smile back and say,  "I know I just like to think about it and scare you a bit."  i have a mind of my own.  Just because i have given control over to Him, doesn't mean if He suggests something i'm not sure about that i'm not going to ask questions.  It could very well be that after my questions are answered, i do ask He asks, but for me this is my mental check.  i'm not a robot, nor does He want me to be.

i believe that subs/slaves and Doms/Masters are equal.  They have different responsibilities, each of which can be trying at times.  These different responsibilities enhance the relationship.  He meets my needs, and i meet His.  The yin-yan is definately the best way to put it.  After all, if they aren't unequal before they collar you, the fact that you choose to give them thier power shouldn't make you less or more than they are.



Celeste43 -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 7:01:18 AM)

I am of equal value in the relationship. I have to have power to give to him. But he doesn't want someone who is incapable of giving him advice when he asks for it, is incompetent at tasks he needs done, etc. If I was of lesser worth, value, ability then that would reflect badly on him that the only person he would feel capable of dominating would be someone so incompetent.



murmur -> RE: equals? (4/25/2006 2:18:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: murmur

wow...i'm still takinga lots of little notes here!!! [:D]

First of all, i want to thank every each of you for posting. It confused me a lot sometimes, but it helped me clear out my questions and the new ones who made themselves known while reading the posts. (another thread sometimes, maybe? [;)])
I knew that doms and subs werent *equals* by their position towards each others, but the way those doms were talking about it, they were qualifying subs as inferior as *human beings* only because their nature was to surrender. That's what troubled me the most.

I guess it just puts me in a reflexion state about what i really want out of a D/s....if (lol) what i want IS a D/s...i'll keep read the forums, maybe i'll find it [:)] 
But you all helped me (and for sure, a lot of others) so much, i cant thank you enough for that...

thanks !!!!!!!


I don't blame you for feeling that way, but there are many dom/mes that dont feel subs are inferior, tools, employees, or of "lesser station" because they chose to respect and follow what they say, and it is a choice.

If you decide you want to make that choice just make sure you submit to someone that does not in any way shape or form feel this makes you "beneath" them. It is not only possible to find such a One, it is likely if you are selective.

On edit I wanted to say if it makes you satisfied and happy to serve in a way which you feel that you do not seek being an "equal" then that is what makes you happy and satisfies you, nothing wrong with that, whatever floats people's boats and makes them happy. We all have one life to live and should live it the way that gives us peace and joy


thanks for the advice [:)] There is after all no *better* ways to follow that road. Just finding the road who feel right for ya and all that, right?
but this topic is beginning to get tricky (jumps so as not to be burned...or am i already?)
getting away on tiptoes, la la la la....



mechbot972007 -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 10:40:00 AM)

i enjoy the view from the bottom..it was the last choice that i had made....your talking about two Doms thats equal...even two subs are not equal...
Respectfully
chris



Reasonable -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 10:41:08 AM)

Equals in ability-but not in authority.



Padriag -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 12:48:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: murmur

After talking with a fews doms here and there...i've been wondering....
I wish to have people's honest answers here...
I personnaly thinks that submissive and dominants should be equals, dont you think? or that, when one choose to become one *beneath* the other, it doesnt mean he becomes *really* beneath him, but only in this state because he chooses so. therefore, the equal thingy is still there.
But i've been talking and asking lots of questions...and a lots of doms would answer me to my question as if :
yeah, you and me are equals right now. but if you were on my collar or if you would be my sub, you would have to answer to my demands and therefore, be beneath me.

but but but...what does that mean?? i believe in the yin and yan thing in a D/s relationship, the *you complete me* thing...not the beneath me thing...or is there differences? is there exceptions?
is a slave *less* worthy then her master only because she surrenders her whole being to him?
personnally, i dont think so!
but, where is the lign here? is *there* a lign?
Does the terms submission means inferiority? or the opposite, as in, dominance = superiority? for a lot of doms, it does seems so....

What do you think?



Interesting question, some interesting answers.  Here's another.

No, they are not and never will be equal.  Ever.  Equality is a myth, its bullshit, a pretty concept cooked up by PC socialist to make everyone feel better.  Its a pretty unhealthy concept at that.

Now before anyone flames me, let's do two things.

First lets define exactly what kind of equality we're talking about here.

Are we refering to equal in authority?  Well obviously they aren't equal in that regard or how else is there any power exchange.

Are we talking equal in ability?  Some may say yes... let's test that theory.  I can type approximately 120 wpm... can all of you?  No... guess we aren't all equal in ability then.  So much for that one.

Are we equal in value?  Hmm... this is a prickly one.  Let me ask you this... on what basis do you value someone?  For example... I'm a total stranger to most of you, so who would you value more, me or say... one of your parents?  If I was trapped in a burning building with one of your parents, and you could only save one of us, who would you choose.  I'm guessing about 99% of you said your parent, congrats, you value your parent more than me... so we ain't equal in value then are we.

What about value based on achievement, how useful someone is?  I help support my parents, my grandmother as well as taking care of myself, I do not depend on any form of welfare, I contribute to my community (several of them), I founded my own business.  Does that make me more valueable than say some drunk bum on the street who doesn't work, lives on welfare, and refuses to get a job?

Before you can answer the question, are we equal... you first have to answer how you determine value.  The myth of Equality is this, it avoids assigning any form of value based on any form of merit by avoiding the basic question... how do we value a person?  Instead of assigning some form of value fairly based on some form of merit, it instead proposes the ideal that all humans are inherantly of equal value... just cause... no reason, no basis, just cause... and leaves it at that.  Which means that drunk bum or that wife abuser is just as valuable a human being as say... me... someone who works hard, does his best for his family and his community and tries to make something of himself... now don't that just seem wrong?

Some one said equal doesn't mean the same... actually... that's exactly what it means.  Webster's defines equal as being "the same measure, quantity, amount, or number as another; LIKE; identical quality, nature or status;"  The only way we can all be equal is if we were all identical, which obviously we aren't.

Now this isn't the same as say being equal before the law.  Which simply means that (at least in theory) the law applies to us all equally regardless of our individual differences.  In other words, we aren't really equal, but despite that the law is supposed to treat us all the same anyway... we call it being fair.  Neat little concept, doesn't really work that way, but its a neat little concept.

Now the second thing I'd like you to do before you flame me is read an essay I wrote some time back on equality.  An if you still feel like flaming me after that... well.. have at it... I didn't come her to win a popularity contest.

Here's the essay http://www.bardicheart.com/Essays/equality.html



domtimothy46176 -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 12:52:18 PM)

When toy and I were newly joined, we discussed the issue of equality within the context of our agreement.  She, like some other submissive personalities that have weighed in, could not reconcile the idea of being equal and also being owned.  I, on the other hand, recognized immediately that there is an equality inherent in a relationship where each partner is a necessary component in the fulfillment of the other.  For the sake of expediency in finding common linguistic ground, we have termed ourselves equal in value within the relationship, which is inherently true.
This concept of equality of value most completely enbodies the reality of our particular relationship.  Although most, if not all, of the authority has been vested in me, I cannot rule unless she serves and she cannot meaningfully belong if I will not accept the responsibility of ownership. 
Timothy



Reasonable -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 1:08:13 PM)

You know Padraig,

I think a lot of this has to do with feelings of validation. While I certainly agree that the pc socialist/communist phrase "we are all equal" is bs...........ability and value will always differ from individual to individual-and are always in some state of flux. We are not static entities. But if we are crippled by a neurotic need for outside and self validation- this often screeches to a halt. Better simply to say to oneself.......

I am a unique organism,better at some things than others......and worse at some things than others....but this is unimportant, so long as I undertake positive and ongoing actions, that will improve my lot in life.......

The most common form which others use to assign value to individuals is a communal-rather than individual one. How well does this individual contribute to those around them-as well as to themselves?

I think that relationships are based more on differences than commonalities, overall. Again,it's a contribution thing.....Whether those differences mesh in a complimentary and pleasing manner is always the tough part.

I think that many people believe that D/s simplifies these things,makes them more controllable with structure and communication. However,this is overly simplistic in it's views. Any system that deals with dynamic flux must also have the same ability to adapt as the participants grow.

While consistency is neccesary-the ability to make changes based on sound judgements and continuing assessments are of extreme importance as well.

So there must be a balance between the rigidity of a rough structure-balanced with a competent governance of ongoing change in the participants.

It's a delicate balancing act,and I think it requieres a degree of intelligence to pull it off-and the ability to be empathic and sensitive as well.

The less that is taken for granted-the less mistakes are made.[;)]



Padriag -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 2:01:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasonable

You know Padraig,

I think a lot of this has to do with feelings of validation.


Well basically, yes.  It stems from an unrealistic expectation.  Follow me on this.

Some time ago I came up with this little aphorism.  "All disappointment in life flows directly from an unrealistic expectation."  In other words, we get disappointed when we expect something that we really shouldn't have.  For example being disappointed with a Christmas gift is unrealistic because its a gift and you don't have any control over what someone chooses to give you.  If you change the expectation to simply accept a gift, whatever it may be, as a symbol of affection and thought on the part of the giver then regardless what the gift is you are never disappointed.

I think I've already shown that the notion of "human equality" is a myth, but its one being perpetuated which means society... that is us, are being set up with an unrealistic expectation which goes something like this.

A person is taught that everyone is equal in value regardless of anything else.  Then they run into someone who is a better athelete or better at business or what have you and they are face to face with the reality that no, in fact, we are not all equal.  But the person has the expectation of being equal... so they become disappointed and from that comes resentment, anger, hostility, a tendency to try to dimnish others, etc.  That is, we don't hate someone for being rich, we hate them because we are not and that realization that in some way we are not equal to them, that disappointment, offends us.  All very bad for society.

Now suppose we change that expectation... we accept that we are not all equal, but we all have the option of trying to be our personal best.  The fact that someone else may be a better athelete, or accountant, or investor, or what have you does not dimnish us in any way... we are who we are and our worth lies not in being equal to others, but in what we do with our own lives.  Now we have no need to diminish others, to have resentment for anothers success because it does not threaten us.  We have no unrealistic expectation that somehow we are all equal even though some try harder than others, some are more talented than others.  If we don't expect to be equal to those who are in fact better than us at various things, then we are not disappointed when we discover that reality.  Because we didn't expect it, we aren't threatened by it.

And thus... what matters it if a master and slave are not equal in a relationship, one or the other is not dimnished for it.  Each finds their value not in equality, but in their own achievement at being who they are.

Which is really just a long winded way of getting round too...

Be the best dominant or submissive or master or slave you can be, because that's where your value as a person comes from, in being your personal best.  Whether someone else is over you or beneath you or more skilled or less talented doesn't affect your value, it doesn't change who you are.  It isn't about whether you are equal to, or even if you are better than, others... its about what have you done with what you have.

I like what Emerson said, "Make the most of yourself, for that is all there is of you."



juliaoceania -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 2:08:23 PM)

You say equality is some sort of socialistic ideal and by that standard our forefathers in the USA were wrong, we are not all inherently created equal? In our humanity we are all equal... i could really care if you call me a socialist.. but we are all equal according to the law... now it can be debated whether or not some people are treated better than others, but according to what this country is founded on we are all equal at birth. I do not care if you can crap in three different colors and 5 different flavors, you have no more value inherently than anyone else.

You bring up the individual value we assign people, well I am sure your loved ones would grab you out of a burning building rather than me, but I still do not think that makes your humanity of anymore value than anyone elses. By your standard a dom can be of very inferior value to his own sub if she is better loved at large than he, contributes more to society, and more people would risk life and limb for her than for her dom.

We all have different abilities, strengths and weaknesses. Dom/mes are not perfect, better than, more valuable than a sub/slave. Those of you who put a capital letter in front of your name and assume some superiority are only ledgends in your own mind and those who serve you, without them you are pretty much nothing by your own self definition if you believe someone's service to you automatically makes you superior.



Reasonable -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 2:58:14 PM)

Reasonable wrote:

quote:

I am a unique organism,better at some things than others......and worse at some things than others....but this is unimportant, so long as I undertake positive and ongoing actions, that will improve my lot in life.......


So we are in basic agreement on this  one premise...........

Padraig wrote:

quote:

Now suppose we change that expectation... we accept that we are not all equal, but we all have the option of trying to be our personal best.  The fact that someone else may be a better athelete, or accountant, or investor, or what have you does not dimnish us in any way... we are who we are and our worth lies not in being equal to others, but in what we do with our own lives.  Now we have no need to diminish others, to have resentment for anothers success because it does not threaten us.


You can see this feeling of dissapointment in the fable of equality being expressed hundreds of times a day here. I find it sad that so many waste so much misguided effort on such useless cognitive processes. If they simply moved beyond the need, and accepted that not all of what our prevailing culture inculcates them with will ALWAYS be of value-there would be a lot less grief ,overall.

But therin lies the difference between people like us Padraig-and the "herd".

We question, and find out our own answers-the others simply blindly take what the pc world teaches them, as truth.[&:]




Padriag -> RE: equals? (4/29/2006 3:23:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reasonable
So we are in basic agreement on this  one premise...........

Ayup [:)]

quote:

Padraig wrote:

quote:

Now suppose we change that expectation... we accept that we are not all equal, but we all have the option of trying to be our personal best.  The fact that someone else may be a better athelete, or accountant, or investor, or what have you does not dimnish us in any way... we are who we are and our worth lies not in being equal to others, but in what we do with our own lives.  Now we have no need to diminish others, to have resentment for anothers success because it does not threaten us.


You can see this feeling of dissapointment in the fable of equality being expressed hundreds of times a day here. I find it sad that so many waste so much misguided effort on such useless cognitive processes. If they simply moved beyond the need, and accepted that not all of what our prevailing culture inculcates them with will ALWAYS be of value-there would be a lot less grief ,overall.

But therin lies the difference between people like us Padraig-and the "herd".

We question and find out own answers-the others simply blindly take what the pc world teaches them, as truth.[&:]

True, but therein also lies a responsibility.  Most people in life aren't going to do the kind of truth seeking you or I or some others might, the Plato's and Nietzsches of the world will always be exceptions.  Frankly a lot of people just don't have the time, ability or resources for it... just the way it is.  The fact that we can puts some responsibility on us to educate... and the best way to educate is by example.

There are people smarter than me in this world, I'm not equal to them and so far as intelligence goes they are superior to me.  But it doesn't bother me.  Some of them do more with their intellect than I do... some do less.  Me, I do what I can do and that's all that matters.

There are people with far better educations than I have, I never got to go to a big college, I'm largely self educated, I've spent a lot of money buying books I might have gotten to read for free at a major college... those people who had those formal educations, who had the benefit of curriculums much better developed than anything I could come up with for myself are superior to me in that way.  That's okay, I did the best I could with what I had and that's alright.  I don't resent those people for it in the least... and when I have the chance I learn from them.

Six years ago I had a slave, she was also my fiance'.  She was one of those people who was smarter than me.  She was far better educated, had been to the best schools, studied across Europe, had a lot of advantages.  Artistically she was so incredibly talented she made me look like an artistic dud... and most folks consider me a fairly good artist (I used to make my living as a painter).  She could sing, play eight different musical instruments (I'm still struggling to learn one), spoke seven languages fluently, etc.  I tend to measure value by merit... and by my reckoning she was superior to me in almost every way.  I loved her for it, among other reasons.  Perhaps most of all because she was a better person than me, more humane, more kind, more generous, more noble.  She helped me be a better person.  I was her Master... I was her inferior... and it didn't make a bit of difference to the fact I loved her til the day she died.  What did matter was we were two people both trying to be the best we could be.

I know some will flame me for challenging the notion of universal equality.  I don't resent them for it either.  I understand it, I realize that I've kicked them in the mind, discomforted them and for that they are not prepared to forgive me.  S'kay, no real harm done. 

The lesson I'd like to teach, the example I hope I set is that it doesn't matter who is better, above or beneath... it doesn't matter if we are equal or not... it matters only what you do with yourself.  Are you making the most of yourself?



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