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A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 8:38:15 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		With Republican control of the House looking very likely after the election, and a big question looming before the courts regarding the individual mandate, Obamacare will probably soon need some trauma center and ICU insurance of it's own.

Healthcare is a huge issue, and it directly touches the lives of every one of us. If we are going to make it a Right in the United States, the way to do that is not with a massive bill rammed down the throats of Americans. We need a discussion as big as the issue, on the biggest stage we can find. The founders gave us that stage in Article 5, the instructions for amending the Constitution.

I'm of two minds about the healthcare debate. I see the benefits, I understand the need. But I have been to the DMV. I have waited in, and walked through, and spent some hard hours around hospitals where all the low skill staff are the products of welfare-to-work programs, and not a very good product, either. I've seen the video, from a gov't-run hospital, of the janitor mopping the waiting room, working right around the woman who was screaming as she died on the floor. I'm just not convinced that what we have is worse than the inevitable consequences of placing our government in charge. We could address a lot of problems with nothing near that draconian.

So what do you think? Isn't our healthcare worth the biggest venue our system has? Imagine the sort of national conversation we might get just trying to pass something through Congress with a 2/3rds majority! Then, again, in the legislatures or conventions in the various states! That is, literally, the American way.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 9/25/2010 8:42:18 AM >

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RE: A healthcare rights amendment - 9/25/2010 8:42:25 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
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Status: offline 		They will fix it by privatizing it.

Oh and US citizens do not have unalienable rights.  Their rights are in the form of government sponsored privileges and immunities in the form of licenses contracts and trusts.

This was all "offered" as a result or based in the 14th amendment which we long since have proof right off of the congressional records it is fraud.

Just another way to tap and drain the credit of the nation.

Contracting with the beast is the heartbreak hotel. 

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< Message edited by Real0ne -- 9/25/2010 8:51:20 AM >

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 8:54:42 AM   
rulemylife


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Status: offline 		So, to put  it in simpler terms without all the excess verbiage, you are trying to step up the requirements for a piece of legislation you don't like.



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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 8:58:29 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Afraid to put it to the People. Your response is noted.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:03:17 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		I rather doubt thats a republican gameplan.  First, their plank is revoke it (no ratification by states there).  And it has been discussed for over 50 years, and nobody has legislated healthcare reform (and there certainly is no impetus for the republicans to do so, nor to craft legislation thru caucus).

But yeah, I would be in favor of healthcare reform. 

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:13:41 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Afraid to put it to the People. Your response is noted.


So shall we do that with every piece of legislation or just the ones you don't approve of?

Isn't that why we elect representatives?



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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:31:53 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		I'll suggest you have another attempt with the "excess verbiage" up there, RML.

I'll also suggest that I nailed your position in my previous reply, and you will now make every effort to talk about something else, and do it in bad faith.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:32:45 AM   
flcouple2009


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Status: offline 		"A new AP poll finds that Americans who think the law should have done more outnumber those who think the government should stay out of health care by 2-to-1"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100925/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_poll

Do you think anything the Republicans and Tea Party come up with is going to be anywhere near making that segment of the population happy?

The Republicans keep goofing up by adding up all of the people who are unhappy with the current bill.  Ignoring the fact that many of the people they are counting are unhappy because they want a single payer system.

< Message edited by flcouple2009 -- 9/25/2010 9:33:32 AM >

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:49:56 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		So we agree that what we have right now is far from settling the matter, right Flco?

Would you then agree that such a massive government intervention should be debated and fully discussed, rather than presented as a partisan fait accompli?

The assumption here is that Obamacare will not stand, and what happens to the healthcare discussion after that.

I think the most compelling reason for the Article 5 approach is that it will produce an outcome the overwhelming majority will accept.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:55:35 AM   
joether


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Status: offline 		Yes, the 'people' are all so knowledgable and wise on the concept of health care. More then half do not understand the current Health Care bill, even though that's been in effect for over six months (and published on the web). They didn't understand the process for creating the bill, nor did they bother to sit down with the Presiden'ts original idea and go with it. They didn't ignore Republicans, when they should have. And finally, didn't think it was 'that big of a problem' during the years proceeding it, when it was growing at an alarming rate.

Now, Republicans want to make it an Amendment? No, I'm with Realone, they'll privatize (arrr matey!!!....pirate-ize!!!) it. They'll try to get rid of the health care bill, rather then try to fix it. After that, the whole health care bill will be 'caught in committee' for the next decade. And Republicans will give you the same lies, they've been giving us for a decade, just with health care. When they finally do, get around to doing something about it, it'll be a win fall, for corporations, not private citizens. It'll look something like a bailout, but for private insurance/hospitals.

During the health care debate (before the bill was voted on), the Republicans spewed misinformation in greater degrees, then the gallons of water that fall off Niagra Falls. Do you honestly think, they'll be honest with the complexities of health care, to the American people? At least with Obama, it was understood, he was for 30 million Americans who did not, or could not, get health insurance. However, he tried to get Republicans on board, and make the process work for Americans. Unfortunately, Republicans seem to only care about the top 2% of American Incomes in the country. And that 2% already has afforable healthcare; why would they need goverment's help?

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 9:57:50 AM   
Fellow


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Status: offline 		I see the major problem with Obamacare being the cost: the individuals pay more, the businesses pay more and the government pays more. Health care industry is happy, but where the money comes from and where it goes needs clear explanation?
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/Obamacare-is-even-worse-than-critics-thought-960772-103571664.html

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 10:01:50 AM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Jo, I'm not aware of this idea being the next big Republican talking point. It's something I'm tossing out for discussion. I think moving it onto the big platform is the best way to not make it such a partisan dominiated issue.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 10:19:15 AM   
flcouple2009


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Status: offline 		Well then Mr Rich,

So be it we can create an amendment making a single payer system and the majority of America will be happy.

The majority of Americans are interested in moving forward from what we have.  The portion that is unhappy still sees this as a stepping stone toward a single payer system.  There is nothing the Republicans are Tea Party have presented which would be of interest to any of this group.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 10:54:00 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

"A new AP poll finds that Americans who think the law should have done more outnumber those who think the government should stay out of health care by 2-to-1"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100925/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_poll

Do you think anything the Republicans and Tea Party come up with is going to be anywhere near making that segment of the population happy?

The Republicans keep goofing up by adding up all of the people who are unhappy with the current bill.  Ignoring the fact that many of the people they are counting are unhappy because they want a single payer system.

Bingo. I am disappointed because Single-payer was taken off the table to appease the Repubs. There is no reason for there to be a middle-man taking a major slice of health care premiums before providers ever see a dime. None.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 12:44:13 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Single payer has always struck me as the biggest invitation to fraud imaginable, quickly followed by the spiral of increased bureaurocracy and lowered efficiency as we try to plug the endless varieties of holes and scams.


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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 12:53:06 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

That is, literally, the American way.


No, it's not.

The Constitution sets out the guiding principles. The vast body of executive, legislative, and judicial decisions doesn't call for a vast body of Constitutional amendments, as such matters don't change those principles.

If they do, you can challenge them in court.

Have fun.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 1:17:36 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		For something this big, Muse? Do we really want this see-sawing between Presidents and the control of Congress? It gets passed by one administration, who will then see the balance of DC power dramatically altered in response to it, and the new arrivals will probably mis-read the mandate as well.

What we are talking about on this is an instruction from the people, to the government, to recognize a right not previously enumerated.



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 1:47:48 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

"A new AP poll finds that Americans who think the law should have done more outnumber those who think the government should stay out of health care by 2-to-1"

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100925/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_poll

Do you think anything the Republicans and Tea Party come up with is going to be anywhere near making that segment of the population happy?

The Republicans keep goofing up by adding up all of the people who are unhappy with the current bill.  Ignoring the fact that many of the people they are counting are unhappy because they want a single payer system.

Bingo. I am disappointed because Single-payer was taken off the table to appease the Repubs. There is no reason for there to be a middle-man taking a major slice of health care premiums before providers ever see a dime. None.


ROFL. Your typical lack of comprehension. Hint: SINGLE PAYER DOESNT ELIMINATE MIDDLEMEN, IT INTRODUCES THE WORST POSSIBLE MIDDLEMAN.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 9/25/2010 1:59:08 PM >

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 1:54:02 PM   
cadenas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether
Yes, the 'people' are all so knowledgable and wise on the concept of health care. More then half do not understand the current Health Care bill


The people are wise on what matters to them. That health care premiums for the median family far exceeds the tax burden matters to them. That private industry has failed matters to them.

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RE: A Healthcare Rights Amendment - 9/25/2010 2:04:16 PM   
cadenas


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Status: offline 		Well, that's easy enough to debunk. After all, the majority of Americans already has government-run single-payer through either Medicare, the military, or various other programs. Only about a third of Americans are subject to the industrialized health insurance companies.

Guess who has higher administrative costs? By a 10:1 margin, private health insurance companies. Guess where doctor's offices and hospitals nowadays spend a huge amount? Medical billing.

What we currently have is the most inefficient bureaucracy you can possibly have.

And as for fraud: health insurance fraud is CURRENTLY one of the largest crime industries around, medical identity theft amounts to about four times the size of identity theft for other reasons.

There is a simple fix to the fraud problem (and I believe it has actually already been enacted). Private health insurance companies are allowed to drag their feet paying, sometimes for months or years. Permit Medicare to do the same, and the problem goes away because the crooks are interested in quick payment and then disappearing.


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Single payer has always struck me as the biggest invitation to fraud imaginable, quickly followed by the spiral of increased bureaurocracy and lowered efficiency as we try to plug the endless varieties of holes and scams.

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