RE: More Teabagger Craziness (Full Version)

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mnottertail -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:08:15 AM)

OH FOR FUCKS SAKE WILBUR. Like you dont have a PHd in absolute falsehoods, delusional rhetoric and snark.  And if you say something is right, then everyone of any intelligence should think and do exactly the opposite to enjoy a peaceful and verdant world. 




Lucylastic -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:10:00 AM)

talk about reliable willbur:) of course you think he is right, LMAO thats a given.
however.snark no more, Im off to enjoy my day...
pot kettle.carry on


Ron.... nice:)




willbeurdaddy -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:13:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

talk about reliable willbur:) of course you think he is right, LMAO thats a given.
however.snark no more, Im off to enjoy my day...
pot kettle.carry on


Ron.... nice:)


Concession accepted.




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:15:01 AM)

"You`re just repeating Reaganomic myths that little bush "de-bunked" in the worst most visceral ways possible.They are dead now.

It`s democrats that are restoring confidence in capitalism and fixing the mess you tea-bagger/GOP/neo-con losers left us with.

Back on-topic......"

That is what you said, right?  Are you out of your MIND?  You can't be this historically inaccurate and get away with it, my friend.  Remember what I said to everyone about making "Bumper Sticker Arguments" that cause smart people to spend hours to refute them?  Well here we go again.  Pay attention, liberals, here is a thumbnail history of the MORTGAGE MELTDOWN CRISIS:

In 1977, Jimmy Carter signed into law the Community Redevelopment Act.  It was more of the same social engineering that the evil and hopelessly corrupt Lyndon Baines Johnson screwed around with.  Fannie Mae was instructed that 33% of the paper it backed had to be for low income people that NEVER could have gotten a mortgage.  So 33% of the paper was bad, undervalued, over leveraged paper.  Got it?  That is a pretty simple concept to understand.  It NEVER should have been done.  Would you want 1/3 of your portfolio to be bad paper?  Of course you wouldn't unless you are a FOOL.

This situation lasted throughout the Carter Administration, both terms for Reagan and H.W. Bush's administration as well.  It was a disaster waiting to happen but it took a real piece of dung to push it over the top; William Jefferson Clinton.  Under Clinton, Mario Cuomo was the head of H.U.D. and the corrupt Gilibrand was his under secretary.  Clinton wanted 50%.....that's FIFTY PERCENT.....of the paper that Fannie Mae backed to be bad and they used the Justice Department to lean on banks to write bad paper.

(Back in law school, a professor told me during the H.W. Bush Administration that the Community Redevelopment Act would eventually blow up in our faces and that was back in 1989!)

The perfect storm was brewing and the cherry on top was the repeal----done by William Jefferson Clinton---of the Glass Steagal Act.  What Glass Steagal essentially said was that banks can't act like brokerage firms or insurance companies and insurance companies can't act like banks or brokerage firms and brokerage firms can't act like banks or insurance companies.  Remember when we were children and we learned about division of labor?  Ok...Glass Steagal was division of labor for the finance world.  Once Glass Steagal was repealed, we were doomed.  The mortgage meltdown is a DIRECT result of the repeal of Glass Steagal.  With Glass Steagal repealed, Wall St., doing what Wall St. does, began bundling mortgages into derivatives and other investment vehicles.  Was Wall St. "BAD" for doing that?  FUCK NO....THE GOVERNMENT WAS BAD FOR ALLOWING THEM TO DO SO.  Let me explain...Wall St. does what Wall St. is supposed to do; they come up with investment vehicles and schemes that allow people to become super rich.......or super poor.  A tree exists in nature.  A stock, a bond, a put, a call, a future, an option DOES NOT.  These are all investment vehicles created by man that carry risk.  The risk was diminished by the smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart men that drafted the Glass Steagal Act back in the 1930's. 

During George W. Bush's administration (George W. Bush was NO conservative, by the way!), he warned in 17 different speeches and press conferences that Fannie Mae was going bust.  Unscrupulous pieces of garbage that were getting paid by Fannie Mae to be cheerleaders came out and said everything was fine.  One of those cheerleading, morally corrupt pieces of skunk dung was Barney Frank of Massachusetts.  Another was Chris Dodd of Massachusetts.  And another.........ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......another was a young senator from Illinois named Barrack Hussein Obama.  GOOGLE IT...LIBERALS!!!!!  All of the facts are right at your fingertips!  Google Mortgage Meltdown New York Times and look for an article that came out in 2007 or 2008 which was a brilliant and detailed exposition of the mortgage crisis.

Now...who were some of the big offenders?  Goldman Sachs for one.  They were selling the derivatives but they were also taking positions against them because it was so obvious it was going to fail.  Another person who took positions against the sale of derivatives was.............................Christine Gilibrand.  OH...you can google that too.

Don't talk shit to me about the Democrats trying to restructure capitalism.  Peddle that stupidity elsewhere.  When the government took over General Motors, the government told the bond holders that "you will get 20-25 cents on the dollar".  The government had no right to do that.  The bond holders actually OWN GM.  The bondholders are the most secured creditors.  But that didn't matter to Obama.  Two hundred years of law went out the window in the government takeover of GM.  I'm going to say something that the liberal population reading this is not going to understand.  But try.  You people want socialism.  Well...we have it. :) :) :) :)  We have socialism for the super rich. Look at Bear Sterns, Merill Lynch, AIG, Bank of America.  These organizations suffered HUGE losses but no one actually paid for them.  We did...the taxpayers.  People who worked for these companies, never left their desks.  The name may have changed on the door or on the marquis down in the lobby, but little else.  Their debt, their risky behavior..................................................was socialized.  Ok?  Stay with me.  The people at the bottom of the income scale.  The forty some percent that do not pay taxes, their tax burden has been...........................................socialized.  Yes, there is capitalism in this country but it is for the people that make between $75,000.00 and $1,000,000.00 per year.  The rest enjoy socialism.

As far as your drivel about Paladino, he got the affairs confused.  Mario didn't have the affair, his wife did.  So what.  Politics is ugly and it is going to get a lot uglier because pigs are being dragged away from their troughs.  That is life, sporto.  As far as Glenn Beck is concerned, have you ever watched his program?  It is pretty fucking frightening.  You wanna know why?  It is because a huge amount of his program is based on U.S. history and constitutional analysis.  When you see where this country has drifted as opposed to the ideals on which it was founded....it is pretty terrifying.





SL4V3M4YB3 -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:25:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

OH FOR FUCKS SAKE WILBUR. Like you dont have a PHd in absolute falsehoods, delusional rhetoric and snark. And if you say something is right, then everyone of any intelligence should think and do exactly the opposite to enjoy a peaceful and verdant world.



Only PhD's written on litmus paper are valid and if the Ph document turn a funny colour it is clearly not written in a neutral manor.

I have a PhD in metaphysical PhD's, in which I investigate if metaphysical PhD's are just as valid as physical ones. My findings so far are that since nobody reads them it doesn't matter one bit...

"Hi dear have you read this PhD entitled: 'Social housing increase modelled using a weighted average quad polar algorithm technique' I can't put it down."




RacerJim -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:28:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

"You`re just repeating Reaganomic myths that little bush "de-bunked" in the worst most visceral ways possible.They are dead now.

It`s democrats that are restoring confidence in capitalism and fixing the mess you tea-bagger/GOP/neo-con losers left us with.

Back on-topic......"

That is what you said, right?  Are you out of your MIND?  You can't be this historically inaccurate and get away with it, my friend.  Remember what I said to everyone about making "Bumper Sticker Arguments" that cause smart people to spend hours to refute them?  Well here we go again.  Pay attention, liberals, here is a thumbnail history of the MORTGAGE MELTDOWN CRISIS:

In 1977, Jimmy Carter signed into law the Community Redevelopment Act.  It was more of the same social engineering that the evil and hopelessly corrupt Lyndon Baines Johnson screwed around with.  Fannie Mae was instructed that 33% of the paper it backed had to be for low income people that NEVER could have gotten a mortgage.  So 33% of the paper was bad, undervalued, over leveraged paper.  Got it?  That is a pretty simple concept to understand.  It NEVER should have been done.  Would you want 1/3 of your portfolio to be bad paper?  Of course you wouldn't unless you are a FOOL.

This situation lasted throughout the Carter Administration, both terms for Reagan and H.W. Bush's administration as well.  It was a disaster waiting to happen but it took a real piece of dung to push it over the top; William Jefferson Clinton.  Under Clinton, Mario Cuomo was the head of H.U.D. and the corrupt Gilibrand was his under secretary.  Clinton wanted 50%.....that's FIFTY PERCENT.....of the paper that Fannie Mae backed to be bad and they used the Justice Department to lean on banks to write bad paper.

(Back in law school, a professor told me during the H.W. Bush Administration that the Community Redevelopment Act would eventually blow up in our faces and that was back in 1989!)

The perfect storm was brewing and the cherry on top was the repeal----done by William Jefferson Clinton---of the Glass Steagal Act.  What Glass Steagal essentially said was that banks can't act like brokerage firms or insurance companies and insurance companies can't act like banks or brokerage firms and brokerage firms can't act like banks or insurance companies.  Remember when we were children and we learned about division of labor?  Ok...Glass Steagal was division of labor for the finance world.  Once Glass Steagal was repealed, we were doomed.  The mortgage meltdown is a DIRECT result of the repeal of Glass Steagal.  With Glass Steagal repealed, Wall St., doing what Wall St. does, began bundling mortgages into derivatives and other investment vehicles.  Was Wall St. "BAD" for doing that?  FUCK NO....THE GOVERNMENT WAS BAD FOR ALLOWING THEM TO DO SO.  Let me explain...Wall St. does what Wall St. is supposed to do; they come up with investment vehicles and schemes that allow people to become super rich.......or super poor.  A tree exists in nature.  A stock, a bond, a put, a call, a future, an option DOES NOT.  These are all investment vehicles created by man that carry risk.  The risk was diminished by the smart, smart, smart, smart, smart, smart men that drafted the Glass Steagal Act back in the 1930's. 

During George W. Bush's administration (George W. Bush was NO conservative, by the way!), he warned in 17 different speeches and press conferences that Fannie Mae was going bust.  Unscrupulous pieces of garbage that were getting paid by Fannie Mae to be cheerleaders came out and said everything was fine.  One of those cheerleading, morally corrupt pieces of skunk dung was Barney Frank of Massachusetts.  Another was Chris Dodd of Massachusetts.  And another.........ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.......another was a young senator from Illinois named Barrack Hussein Obama.  GOOGLE IT...LIBERALS!!!!!  All of the facts are right at your fingertips!  Google Mortgage Meltdown New York Times and look for an article that came out in 2007 or 2008 which was a brilliant and detailed exposition of the mortgage crisis.

Now...who were some of the big offenders?  Goldman Sachs for one.  They were selling the derivatives but they were also taking positions against them because it was so obvious it was going to fail.  Another person who took positions against the sale of derivatives was.............................Christine Gilibrand.  OH...you can google that too.

Don't talk shit to me about the Democrats trying to restructure capitalism.  Peddle that stupidity elsewhere.  When the government took over General Motors, the government told the bond holders that "you will get 20-25 cents on the dollar".  The government had no right to do that.  The bond holders actually OWN GM.  The bondholders are the most secured creditors.  But that didn't matter to Obama.  Two hundred years of law went out the window in the government takeover of GM.  I'm going to say something that the liberal population reading this is not going to understand.  But try.  You people want socialism.  Well...we have it. :) :) :) :)  We have socialism for the super rich. Look at Bear Sterns, Merill Lynch, AIG, Bank of America.  These organizations suffered HUGE losses but no one actually paid for them.  We did...the taxpayers.  People who worked for these companies, never left their desks.  The name may have changed on the door or on the marquis down in the lobby, but little else.  Their debt, their risky behavior..................................................was socialized.  Ok?  Stay with me.  The people at the bottom of the income scale.  The forty some percent that do not pay taxes, their tax burden has been...........................................socialized.  Yes, there is capitalism in this country but it is for the people that make between $75,000.00 and $1,000,000.00 per year.  The rest enjoy socialism.

As far as your drivel about Paladino, he got the affairs confused.  Mario didn't have the affair, his wife did.  So what.  Politics is ugly and it is going to get a lot uglier because pigs are being dragged away from their troughs.  That is life, sporto.  As far as Glenn Beck is concerned, have you ever watched his program?  It is pretty fucking frightening.  You wanna know why?  It is because a huge amount of his program is based on U.S. history and constitutional analysis.  When you see where this country has drifted as opposed to the ideals on which it was founded....it is pretty terrifying.



BIG DITTO THAT!




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:29:59 AM)

OK, your post is catnip to my wonkish nose...
First off- When you lower taxes revenue goes up?
Seriously? Google me this- oh hell, let me pull it off my favorites list:
http://capitalgainsandgames.com/blog/andrew-samwick/1883/go-find-me-peak-laffer-curve
This link is to Andrew Samwick, writing on Bruce Bartlett's website Capital Games and Gains.
Who is Bruce Bartlett? Why none other than one of Ronald Reagan's economists, and one of the principal authors of Supply Side economics, which put forward the theory that, yep you guessed it, when tax rates go down, revenue goes up.


You said that, right? When tax rates go up, people stop hiring.  Can you admit that?  When tax rates go up, people leave the country.  Can you admit that?  Bloomberg said "if you tax them, they will leave" can you admit that?  Our corporate tax rates are the highest in the world which is why we are hemorrhaging business and industry all over the globe.  Can you admit that?  If you increase taxes during a recession, you will create a depression.  Does your wonkish nose understand that?  If you lower taxes, the people become wealthy.  Look at Greece.  Greece is a country with the richest people in the world and the most bankrupt government.  Am I advocating for us to be like Greece?  No, there should be a ten percent flat tax that everyone................EEEVVVVERRRRYYOOONNE.....pays. That is the honest way to do it.  But with the democrats running the show, we are going to get a Value Added Tax which will break the back of every American.  Go get all the rim jobs you want but I would really appreciate it if you would get them in FRANCE!   




mnottertail -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:34:35 AM)

You said that, right? When tax rates go up, people stop hiring.  Can you admit that? 
 
Since those rates are not up, why are people not hiring?  Can you admit that?
 
When tax rates go up, people leave the country.  Can you admit that? 
we are awaiting wilburs count on the doctors in puerto rico even as you type your asswipe. We expect nothing credible to be coming from that quarter either.
 
 
Bloomberg said "if you tax them, they will leave" can you admit that? 
Dunno what Bloomberg said, but it seems innocuous enough.
 
 
Our corporate tax rates are the highest in the world which is why we are hemorrhaging business and industry all over the globe.  Can you admit that? 
 
No, actual individual tax rates are some of the lowest in the globe and our actual corporate tax rates are about middling in the globe.
 
Can you admit that your horseshit is unfounded? Can you admit that?




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:46:40 AM)

quote:

You said that, right? When tax rates go up, people stop hiring. Can you admit that?

Since those rates are not up, why are people not hiring? Can you admit that?

When tax rates go up, people leave the country. Can you admit that?
we are awaiting wilburs count on the doctors in puerto rico even as you type your asswipe. We expect nothing credible to be coming from that quarter either.


Bloomberg said "if you tax them, they will leave" can you admit that?
Dunno what Bloomberg said, but it seems innocuous enough.


Our corporate tax rates are the highest in the world which is why we are hemorrhaging business and industry all over the globe. Can you admit that?

No, actual individual tax rates are some of the lowest in the globe and our actual corporate tax rates are about middling in the globe.

Can you admit that your horseshit is unfounded? Can you admit that?


More stupid dishonesty.  That is why liberals are becoming so hated.  U.S. corporate tax rates are the highest in the word. See http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/26506.html...and there are plenty of other sites.

The tax rates have not gone up and people are not hiring.  No fucking shit.  Congress just left without addressing taxes.  What idiot moron would hire anyone without knowing what their tax burden is going to be so they can lay them off shortly thereafter? 

I don't know about doctors going to Puerto Rico...maybe they are.  I don't know what benefit that would have because Puerto Rico is a U.S. territory.  BUT I DO KNOW that U.S. doctors are banning together and building private hospitals in Costa Rica and Dominican Republic because I know two docs in my area that are part of it!  And, I have to say, it is a brilliant plan on their part.

My horseshit isn't unfounded.  You write the same factless, unchecked crap that you have always written. :)




mnottertail -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 9:51:43 AM)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

pwned!!!!




willbeurdaddy -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:09:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway


My horseshit isn't unfounded.  You write the same factless, unchecked crap that you have always written. :)




Which is why he's on my ignore list. He's a total waste of time, a troll posing as someone who thinks and researches, just another Rule without the over the top nonsense.




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:12:45 AM)

You are so correct, Wilbur.  The guy is a total waste of time.  His response to my last post about the U.S. having the highest corporate taxes completely proved my statement true.  Federal corporate taxes as high as 35% with State taxes as high as 12% added to it together with property taxes.  It is a wonder that anyone can do business in this country at all anymore.




DomKen -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:12:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway
In 1977, Jimmy Carter signed into law the Community Redevelopment Act.  It was more of the same social engineering that the evil and hopelessly corrupt Lyndon Baines Johnson screwed around with.  Fannie Mae was instructed that 33% of the paper it backed had to be for low income people that NEVER could have gotten a mortgage.  So 33% of the paper was bad, undervalued, over leveraged paper.  Got it?  That is a pretty simple concept to understand.  It NEVER should have been done.  Would you want 1/3 of your portfolio to be bad paper?  Of course you wouldn't unless you are a FOOL.

This is a silly lie.

If those mortgages made under the CRA were the ones being defaulted then we should have had an ongoing default crisis for the last 33 years. Obviously we have not had massive foreclosures going on for 33 years.

What really happened was in the early part of this decade the deregulation of the banking industry encouraged companies to get into the sub prime mortgage business and those lenders pursued increasingly bad loans as a way to expand their businesses.




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:19:35 AM)

"This is a silly lie.

If those mortgages made under the CRA were the ones being defaulted then we should have had an ongoing default crisis for the last 33 years. Obviously we have not had massive foreclosures going on for 33 years.

What really happened was in the early part of this decade the deregulation of the banking industry encouraged companies to get into the sub prime mortgage business and those lenders pursued increasingly bad loans as a way to expand their businesses."

 
This is what you said, right, DomKen?????  My first response is "wow..."  Ok...look...the reason why you haven't had a continuing mortgage crises since the 70's is because the Glass Steagal Act had not been repealled.  Did you even read my post?  C'mon...tell me.  You can't have an educated discussion unless you read what the other guy says.  We weren't bundling anonymous packages of mortgages until Glass Steagal was repealled.  Do you understand that?  Now look...really...I am giving you erstwhile advice.  Google the New York Times article on the mortgage meltdown.  You consider yourself a bright guy...right?  You need to reeeeaaad it.
 
Ken, if the facts show that I am 100% accurate.  How does that change your views?  Are you still going to be a raving liberal or are you going to start REALLY examining what conservatism means?  In a word, my friend, conservatism is "common fucking sense".  Don't spend money you don't have.  Don't tolerate other people breaching the social contract by willfully and purposefully not supporting themselves.  Right?  Can you agree with me on those two very simple precepts? 




AnimusRex -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:20:46 AM)

OK, the problem with your argument is that you assume that businesses base their hiring decisions solely on tax rates.
But take my business for example- we are a medium sized architectural/ engineering firm, doing about $23M in business a year.

In our business, like any business, you make a profit on the difference between what you pay out, and what you bring in.
So the expenses we pay out- payroll, rent, insurance, electricity, taxes- are all factors that we use to determine how much we have to charge for our services.
Which means that tax rates are just one small component of our calculations. Its true, if tax rates climbed high enough, it would make our services too expensive to be feasible.

But you could say the same thing about rent-or payroll. We pay far, far more in rent and payroll than tax. A modest increase in either of these two factors would dwarf any change in the tax rate.

So the notion that businesses are fleeing (to where? Somallia?) because of corporate income tax rate is nonsense.

But look at it another way- taxes, like rent and payroll, are the price you pay for being in businesses; Taxes- and rent- are much higher in say, Manhattan, New York than in say, Manhattan, Kansas. So why don't all these super dooper smart Wall Street financial firms flee to low tax, low rent Kansas?

Because the benefits of being in high-tax, high-rent New York outweigh the costs- in other words, you pay a lot in taxes to be in New York, but you also get a lot of benefits. For example, you get access to the world's highest concentration of educated financial graduates, access to many other businesses and so on.

This is why rents- AND TAXES- are very low in places like Kansas, and Missisippi; they can't compete for the high wage, high skilled businesses the way New York can.

Back to the point- my business is in a "No Hire" mode; not because of taxes, but because of demand- no one wants to build buildings right now. Even if we were given a tax cut- hell, even if we paid no taxes at all- we still wouldn't hire anyone.
But if demand for our product increased- like say, if a million consumers were given government jobs (hint hint), we would be suddenly back in hiring mode, taxes or no taxes.




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:21:30 AM)

Oh...and Ken...there WAS NO subprime mortgage business until after Glass Steagal was repealled. 




willbeurdaddy -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:22:24 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lockedaway

Ken, if the facts show that I am 100% accurate.  How does that change your views?  Are you still going to be a raving liberal or are you going to start REALLY examining what conservatism means?  In a word, my friend, conservatism is "common fucking sense".  Don't spend money you don't have.  Don't tolerate other people breaching the social contract by willfully and purposefully not supporting themselves.  Right?  Can you agree with me on those two very simple precepts?



Please read the FAQs re posting on this board. The quite clearly state that "Kendoll is never wrong and any post that insinuates he is constitutes a violation of TOS".




AnimusRex -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:24:08 AM)

By the way, you are correct about Glass-Steagal; its repeal led directly to the wild casino gambling of the big banks.
But you are incorrect about CRA- only about 25% of the subprime mortgages were issued by banks operating under CRA rules; most of the subprime action was carried on by institutions that were not covered by CRA.

Given what we know about the mad speculative fever of the marketplace, the notion that banks were forced at gunpoint to issue risky loans is laughable.




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:29:04 AM)

You could not be more wrong.  Taxes are a factor but they are a substantial factor.  When the corporate rate becomes 40% and payroll taxes go up by another 33% and the estate tax goes up to 55% what the hell do you expect people to do OTHER than save their money.  All of this on top of Obama Care being funded next year and the highest deficits in U.S. history.  All of this was done by YOUR president.

You made a very rediculous statement that business is not leaving the U.S.  Do you stand by that?  Almost our entire textile industry is now located in India and Indonesia. 

As far as NYC is concerned, did you know that one of the largest cities in the world is Jersey City which is right across the river from NYC?  Jersey City was a SLUM until NYC raised its sales tax to 14% because NYC defaulted on its short term notes.  The new tax code, decimated NYC for many years and Jersey City continues to grow.

Sorry, pal.  I consider your argument to be fallacious at best.  Oh...and I notice you did not contest my posting on the Mortgage Meltdown.  Have you ever asked yourself why you are a liberal?  Would you please explain to us why you are a liberal and what your left leaning policies are going to acheive and how they are going to benefit the people that work and pay taxes?




lockedaway -> RE: More Teabagger Craziness (10/2/2010 10:31:15 AM)

Just like I told Ken, I will tell you the same thing.  Google the New York Times Article on the mortgage meltdown.  Edify yourself.  If you understand what happened, and it appears that you have a grasp on it, why aren't you more conservative?




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