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Condemned to Prison - 10/2/2010 9:51:47 PM   
hlen5


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"It's all over. The punk punched a guard and tried to escape. He's now being moved to the general population. He won't last long." Dark Steven (Joran Van DerSloot thread).

Dark Steven is tacitly expressing a common and true statement about the dog-eat-dog atmosphere in prison. Why are we as a society so apathetic to the survival of the fittest atmosphere in prison? It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?

One definiton of insanity is doing something over and over and expecting a different result. People come out of prison more skilled in crime than when they went in. Are we as a society in any way complicit by just warehousing people in such a violent place?

ETA: Thanks GotSteel!

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 10/2/2010 10:26:55 PM >


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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/2/2010 10:04:24 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Why are we as a society so apathetic to the survival of the fittest atmosphere in prison? It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?



I guess that depends on whether you view prison as a place for rehabilitation or for punishment.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/2/2010 10:07:22 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
One definiton of chaos is doing something over and over and expecting a different result.

The way I've always heard it is the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/2/2010 10:29:05 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Why are we as a society so apathetic to the survival of the fittest atmosphere in prison? It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?



I guess that depends on whether you view prison as a place for rehabilitation or for punishment.


What is the point of prison if not (along with punishment) improving the convict so such a crime wouldn't happen again?


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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/2/2010 11:17:55 PM   
CruelNUnsual


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

"Why are we as a society so apathetic to the survival of the fittest atmosphere in prison? It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?


Sigghhh...again with the rehabilitation. THERE IS NO SUCH THING

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/2/2010 11:21:59 PM   
DCWoody


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There are, especially in the USA, prisoners who're in til they die....or at least until they're old and feeble.
In those cases prison is almost 100% effective, it may be partially punishment and rehabilitation......but the main advantage of prison seems to be prevention.

For short sentences though....doesn't seem the best idea. In the UK there's been talk of scrapping any sentences under 6-months, using other methods. In Portugal they lost prison for drug users (dealers still get raped), just send them to therapy....100% rehab, 0% punishment....

It may be the way to go, to separate those who can be helped from those who should be locked away....

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 3:21:06 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

What is the point of prison if not (along with punishment) improving the convict so such a crime wouldn't happen again?



I know someone who's been in prison.  He's scared that he could go there again, and lives his life so it won't happen.




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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 8:18:16 AM   
littlewonder


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

What is the point of prison if not (along with punishment) improving the convict so such a crime wouldn't happen again?



I know someone who's been in prison.  He's scared that he could go there again, and lives his life so it won't happen.





This.

Most who really want to be rehabilitated will do everything in their power to never return because it scared the living daylights out of them.
Otherwise those who return never can be rehabilitated. They're habitual offenders and nothing you say or do to them will change their mindsets. They're not afraid of prison.


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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 8:21:58 AM   
Termyn8or


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Incarceration, it's pretty much like anything else, you get what you can out of it. If you want, somehow you can find time to read, to better yourself and all that. You could also go to Bubba's car stealing school, the guy they say could steal an army jet, and come out with a useful skill. Of course that depends on how you want the rest of your life. when you walk in there green, what is the first thing that will be discussed ? How you got caught of course. People share information, like in some sort of camp or something.

The thing to realize about going to the joint is that you are in a different venue, but the people are not all that much different. Of course there are the Father rapers, Mother killers and all that, but in there at least you know it. Out here you know nothing. And you are not the only guy there who made a mistake on his tax form now having to join a gang of Father rapes to get by and not be somebody's bitch. There are places like that but you generally don't get there on your first try.

Most likely you'll meet a couple of people you know, then you're pretty good to go.

At the worst you get hooked up with isabella the fella and she wants you to lick her clams. Well half the people in the world have no problem with shit like that anyway, so, so what ?

What gets me about this whole incerceration thing is that it really is the threat, not the act that impels compliance. You are out, in your house, home whatever and you like it there. They are going to put you where it is not your domain, where your word is not law and you can't change shit. Aggravating of course. Thing is, once you get there and get out, 90% of the time you think "that wasn't all that bad". Of course there are times when it is, but not all the time.

When you get past the threat of it they can smell it or something. If you look at the happenings in my life in the last few years or decade, whatever, they know they got nothing on me. Cuff me and stuff me, you know what I say ? "So now I don't have to cook, work and pay bills ? Keep me forever". The tactic goes beyond that. Catch a DUI and don't have the bail on a Staurday night, refuse the phone call. Tell them straight out "I have noone to call". You'll be out in a half hour.

Actually the main problem with prison is that it takes too damn long. You get out and don't know what kind of car is what, noplace to stay, people died or moved, everything you had once is gone. Getting out sucks almost as bad as going in.

People who know what they're doing can work the prison system like any other. Fancy a guy who goes in with money, opens a "store", makes money. Then wins a lawsuit against the institution. King of the hill, just like life. Money talks. You think any rehabilitation is going on ?

Rehab is a tweeting butterfly that only lands on trees, and alas all we have is flowers. It's fucking joke, because first of all they don't want to rehab anyone. Might dry you out a bit because drugs and shit are so expensive there, but rehab ? Nope, that is counterproductive.

You see cities and states get money back from the feds to fight crime. Cities and states also get some money back from the fed for every prisoner in the system. So of course the most logical action is to imprison the innocent and let the guilty go free. And with recidivism, you are assured of X amount of repeat customers. Actually it is looking up, because as they incarceate more and more for bullshit, most gain an education on how to fuck the system.

I'm just waiting for the results.

T

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 8:29:53 AM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Why are we as a society so apathetic to the survival of the fittest atmosphere in prison? It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?

In the case you mention, rehabilitation doesn't even factor into the scenario.  You're talking about a person who was completely apathetic regarding the lives he took and had not one scrap of compassion or empathy for the continual suffering of the family.  Now society is supposed to care about rehabilitating him?  In cases like that, the best thing that society can do is keep him locked up for the rest of his days so that he can't take another girl's life.


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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 8:46:53 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Why are we as a society so apathetic to the survival of the fittest atmosphere in prison? It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?



I guess that depends on whether you view prison as a place for rehabilitation or for punishment.

It's always been pretty clear which side the 'States comes down on that one, unfortunately.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 9:08:20 AM   
brokedickdog


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In the US prisons are run privately, and for profit.

There are only a few things on my top shelf of "Things that are WAY too wrong" and that is among them.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 9:42:52 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

It's true, but how can we expect people to be rehabilitated in such a place?


Dead is a good rehab.  I know that if he is dead that he will not suffer from recidivism. 

I am really okay with dead.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 10:09:55 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: CruelNUnsual

Sigghhh...again with the rehabilitation. THERE IS NO SUCH THING


While I won't go as far to agree that rehab is not possible, I will say that it's not a priority.  I'd love to see studies done - what factors make recidivism less likely?  Pushing religion on people, lectures about the hurt convicts inflicted on their victims, treating crime with twelve step programs, pushing inmates to get their GEDs/advanced education, etc.?


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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 10:57:19 AM   
pahunkboy


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I am sorry- but most who are in prison need to be there.



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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 10:59:30 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I guess that depends on whether you view prison as a place for rehabilitation or for punishment.


I guess that depends on whether you view prison as a place for appropriate punishment, or as an arena where societal rules no longer apply, where people may be abused however other inmates and guards please.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 11:01:21 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I am sorry- but most who are in prison need to be there.


The childish need for vengence and self-righteousness costs our society dearly.

Prison costs money. So does crime. Reducing it means we have more for our buck.

I'm not willing to so readily pay for others' pride. People can scream "liberal bleeding heart' 'til the end of time, but it's a bottom line practical matter.

We could use the money saved for crime PREVENTION.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 10/3/2010 11:03:32 AM >

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 11:06:39 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I am sorry- but most who are in prison need to be there.


The childish need for vengence and self-righteousness costs our society dearly.

Prison costs money. So does crime. Reducing it means we have more for our buck.

I'm not willing to so readily pay for others' pride. People can scream "liberal bleeding heart' 'til the end of time, but it's a bottom line practical matter.

We could use the money saved for crime PREVENTION.




Yeah, thats never been tried. What a brilliant idea.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 11:17:07 AM   
pahunkboy


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I wonder if MM is NIMBY when they want to build a half way house in his back yard.

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RE: Condemned to Prison - 10/3/2010 12:10:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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Ridicule away.

Still leaves the problem.

Better yet, keep throwing more money at it.




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