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RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 6:40:16 AM   
BonesFromAsh


Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Take away that website called 'taken in hand' and interpret it without that bias.
To me it doesn't so much talk about D/s or BDSM. It talks more about an emotional and intellectual connection that governs a whole life. I don't see that as a negative thing because for every yin there is a yang. I don't see it as unhealthy but then I don't see D/s or BDSM as unhealthy either. I think there are many overlaps of D/s and taken in hand. The combination often work well and there most certainly doesn't need to be any religious involvement for a taken in hand relationship to flourish.



I'll admit, I was one who connected the concept of 'taken in hand' with the website. My apologies to the OP for that derailment.

allthatjaz,

The bolded portion of your post above and this excerpt from your previous post...

quote:


Being taken in hand helped me to look inwardly at my low self worth. Being taken in hand allowed me to see how much worth we had as a couple and being taken in hand has made me seriously consider the real values of life.


...reminds me of a scene from an old movie based on the novel "Dragon Seed" by Pearl S. Buck. In it, there's a line that speaks strongly to me...

quote:


Woman is the root, Man the tree. The tree is only as strong as its roots.


I feel that when a woman (or man, depending on who's doing the taking) is 'taken in hand' it means the focus is taken away from that of the individual and placed on the couple as a cohesive partnership. In a way, both partners are 'taken in hand' in order to bring the best out of each other for the good of the relationship.

Then again...maybe that way of thinking is too egalitarian for some people in regards to a D/s dynamic.


(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 6:43:41 AM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: usemetopleaseyou


quote:

angel's post beautifully stated how I think.  If the man is in charge, you have a TiH relationship, and if you simply extend that to kink, you get maleDom D/s.


So what's femaleDom D/s then?


I would say that the view from a FemDom perspective is an entirely different concept altogether from what some people's ideas are, concerning " the natural order of things".  

There's something out there for everyone, and this is good.



_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 6:57:48 AM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: usemetopleaseyou


quote:

angel's post beautifully stated how I think.  If the man is in charge, you have a TiH relationship, and if you simply extend that to kink, you get maleDom D/s.


So what's femaleDom D/s then?


Um, flip the genders.


_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 7:04:30 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		usemetoplsu,

I don't include dynamics i don't understand into explanations i give when i am speaking about a certain type of relationship -- such as TiH.  I speak of what i know.

I suggest you find out from people who are femaleDom D/s whether they feel they fit within the overall concept of TiH.  If they do, they will explain why, if they don't, they will explain why.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to LadyRian)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 7:17:47 AM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

Greetings allthatjaz,

The concept of being taken in hand isn't merely relegated to the philosophies espoused on the site, which I've read over the years. I found a similar ideology of offering deference to the male entity when participating with The Submissive Wife Project. There are many women who consciously choose to live in subjection to their husbands or partners that don't ascribe to BDSM or any of the varied strains we've come to know. For some, it is merely the natural order and a way of being that they're trying to embrace and reconcile on many occasions. Although deference may be affiliated with kink for some practitioners, that isn't the case for other persons. I learned a great deal from the women and found their perspectives very refreshing.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



I had contacted The Submissive Wife Project, as well. (Back when I was a wife.) I believe I spoke with somebody over the phone about it and yes, I found the privacy of it to be very comforting. I forget why it didn't work out for me - it was quite awhile ago. Something about what I was looking for was not quite what could be found through them - but they were very polite and reassuring to me. Though that didn't work out for me, I know I went away from there with a positive feeling for what they were doing.


(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 10:32:29 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline 		I find Taken In Hand to be enormously sexist, since I don't personally believe that being dominant or submissive has anything to do with gender, and the folks over there seem to think that the only thing wrong with modern day relationships is that women aren't shutting up and listening to men. I checked them out when I was still trying to figure out what the hell it was that wasn't working for me in vanilla relationships, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.

(in reply to Kaliko)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 12:25:41 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

I had contacted The Submissive Wife Project, as well. (Back when I was a wife.) I believe I spoke with somebody over the phone about it and yes, I found the privacy of it to be very comforting. I forget why it didn't work out for me - it was quite awhile ago. Something about what I was looking for was not quite what could be found through them - but they were very polite and reassuring to me. Though that didn't work out for me, I know I went away from there with a positive feeling for what they were doing.


Greetings Kaliko,

I discovered the Project through another site I used to frequent in the past. The diverse membership and supportive environment were aspects that always resonated with me. The degree of participation is dependent on the individual, though my specific program was more intensive. Upon return I will play a different role and look forward to sharing a unique perspective which I hope others find beneficial.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 1:15:52 PM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline 		I can't say anything about it other than the concept of Male supremacy doesn't resonate with me, at all.  But that's just  me.  I believe a woman has complete freedom of choice, in anything and everything she does, and if she chooses TiH, or Submissive Wife, I would hope against hope that it's her own choice.  Why, as a Feminist and Dominant do I feel this way? Because the the submissive submits of their own free will, male or female. Choice = freedom.
Even choosing not to choose, or choosing to turn the power of choice over to another is still  ultimately the individual's choice.

< Message edited by LadyRian -- 10/10/2010 1:16:18 PM >

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/10/2010 2:57:09 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I agree that the site is sexist in its assumptions that men 1.  should lead 2.  are capable of leading. 

On the other hand, I find that many women really want the man to lead in their relationship/marriage, and the woman is frustrated because it is she who is doing the leading, and most of the physical and emotional work in the relationship.  Male leadership seems to be in a deep recession.

As I said in a previous post, TIH was not my end point but it was the beginning, and in that sense, I think it can be very helpful to others in pointing out that there are different ways of having a relationship. 

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/11/2010 3:39:30 AM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

I feel that when a woman (or man, depending on who's doing the taking) is 'taken in hand' it means the focus is taken away from that of the individual and placed on the couple as a cohesive partnership. In a way, both partners are 'taken in hand' in order to bring the best out of each other for the good of the relationship.

Then again...maybe that way of thinking is too egalitarian for some people in regards to a D/s dynamic.



I can relate very much to this. I don't see myself submitting to my partner but I do see myself strongly supporting him, having the utmost respect and admiration for him and very much wanting to keep all of his needs satisfied. He inspired that in me and it was that inspiration that gave our relationship room to grow.
If a Master was to spend a week in our household, he would be commenting on what a wonderful slave I was because what he would witness is a household where the man wants for nothing and yet I'm not a slave and I don't even consider myself subservient. I couldn't be with a man that made demands (apart from sex ) and set me silly tasks to reiterate his dominance but I am more than happy to absolutely comply to good and meaningful leadership. In return I see the benefits. I see a contented and successful man.


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(in reply to BonesFromAsh)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/11/2010 9:42:34 AM   
leadership527


Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline 		You're perfectly content to comply with good and meaningful leadership that produces tangible results.
You reject silly tasks used to prop up some pretend dom's failing ego.
You put those two things together to conclude you are neither slave or even sub.

One day I'd love to get a crisp definition... or even a gestalt that held it all nicely... that described this "dominance" thing that is used in BDSM-land. Whatever it is, it's sure as hell not what I think of. When I think of dominance... real dominance... the kind that REALLY gets things done out in the REAL world... it generally comes part & parcel with "good & meaningful leadership".




_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to allthatjaz)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 7:21:06 AM   
toxic66


Posts: 47
Joined: 5/14/2004
Status: offline
quote:


ORIGINAL: hematitan
That's actually a lot of the problem I have with it -- the implication I see sometimes that it's not so much about individual relationships and personalities but about some natural authority that all men (and husbands) have over women (and wives). It implies that it's something that should be natural for everyone, including people who prefer vanilla or egalitarian relationships, dominant women, submissive men, gay and lesbian couples, and people like me who just don't see their kink as being connected to their gender in the first place.


I have never gotten that impression from that site. In most cases they are very explicit in stating that this is what works for them in their relationships. It is the TIH philosophy and what they believe, not what they think everyone should believe. Understanding that the site is dedicated to that lifestyle, then you see why most of the articles are going to be from that philosophical bent. It is not that they are trying to foist it on outside groups. I was really very amazed when I first started reading this thread and saw all the negative responses. Some seemed very judgmental to me. I have gone to that site and read many wonderful posts by many thoughtful people. Are there some that are bad? Sure. But this site has the same problem. There are some people there that are into kink, I have read some articles there talking about BDSM. Also, the charge about Christianity (as though that is a bad thing) is strange as on the site they specifically say that it is not about religion and that there are people of every faith that practice the TIH lifestyle. Besides those two points, I think CaringandReal and Kaliko very eloquently said everything else I was thinking on the matter.

(in reply to DarkSteven)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 8:40:25 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

I find Taken In Hand to be enormously sexist, since I don't personally believe that being dominant or submissive has anything to do with gender, and the folks over there seem to think that the only thing wrong with modern day relationships is that women aren't shutting up and listening to men. I checked them out when I was still trying to figure out what the hell it was that wasn't working for me in vanilla relationships, but I wouldn't recommend them to anyone.


Well with that kinda attichood you can expect a whole helluvvalot of corner time when you're taken in hand lil missy potty-mouth.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 10:56:13 AM   
jujubeeMB


Posts: 723
Joined: 1/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Well with that kinda attichood you can expect a whole helluvvalot of corner time when you're taken in hand lil missy potty-mouth.


Ruh roh! I'm sowwy...are you going to spank me non-erotically?

(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 11:10:33 AM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
are you going to spank me non-erotically?


It is true that the answer to absolutely everything in the 'Taken in Hand' paradigm seems to be more non-erotic "maintenance" spankings.
Important issues magically resolve themselves!!!

< Message edited by Twoshoes -- 10/12/2010 11:11:23 AM >

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 3:21:34 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Firebirdseeking

I agree that the site is sexist in its assumptions that men 1.  should lead 2.  are capable of leading. 

On the other hand, I find that many women really want the man to lead in their relationship/marriage, and the woman is frustrated because it is she who is doing the leading, and most of the physical and emotional work in the relationship.  Male leadership seems to be in a deep recession.
I may catch some brickbats for this but here goes...there may indeed be some women who want the man to lead the relationship but from what I see and read, that statement seems to be one which there is merely one which is being paid heavy lip service by many women.  Even some submissive women. 

How often do we hear stories from submissives who complain about about not just one but many dominants' failure to lead them?  How often do we hear from some submissive who comes on here and celebrates joyously over her newfound dominant only to read six months later that he lost his ability to lead?

Now...to be fair, I am sure that there are dominants out there who do lose their ability to lead.  I am sure there are dominants who, through one horrendous mistake or a series of smaller ones, lead their submissive to conclude that the dominant is not as fully capable of leading as the submissive initially thought.  I am sure that some dominants' style, while entrancing and/or seemingly right at first, turns out not to be a sustainable way...

BUT...how many women, submissive or not, say they want a man to lead and then, when he tries to do so in the same manner and way he has shown all along... with the only difference being that he has agreed to lead and they have agreed to obey and follow... throw up all kinds of obstacles?  "This is not the way to lead me", "this is not the way that I thought a leader of me would be", "this is not going the way I thought it would/should", "I don't agree with that...and that...and that...oh and that"? 

quote:

As I said in a previous post, TIH was not my end point but it was the beginning, and in that sense, I think it can be very helpful to others in pointing out that there are different ways of having a relationship. 

For those who follow it without hypocrisy, based on the Christian principles on which it is supposed to be based, I agree.

(in reply to Firebirdseeking)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 4:02:19 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

BUT...how many women, submissive or not, say they want a man to lead and then, when he tries to do so in the same manner and way he has shown all along... with the only difference being that he has agreed to lead and they have agreed to obey and follow... throw up all kinds of obstacles?  "This is not the way to lead me", "this is not the way that I thought a leader of me would be", "this is not going the way I thought it would/should", "I don't agree with that...and that...and that...oh and that"?
 

Greetings CreativeDominant,

It is my belief that many people on both sides of the whip are attempting to pattern themselves after preconceived ideas of what dominance or submission entail rather than seeing the experience as a process of becoming instead. In my opinion it is difficult to state with any measure of confidence that you'll follow an individual without question until you've confronted and surmounted your biggest critic - y.o.u. We have a propensity for talking ourselves into and out of situations merely because the idea of its unfolding is more appealing than the reality that takes place. When we seek to empty the vessel and cease to cling to what is comfortably familiar the seeds of submission begin to bloom. However, if the focus remains on the individual and never expands beyond it, the cycle of disappointment will continue to churn. It's not about you, but two.

Namaste,

~porcelaine


_____________________________

His will; my fate.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 5:30:21 PM   
Twoshoes


Posts: 1218
Joined: 7/27/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant
BUT...how many women, submissive or not, say they want a man to lead and then, when he tries to do so in the same manner and way he has shown all along... with the only difference being that he has agreed to lead and they have agreed to obey and follow... throw up all kinds of obstacles?  "This is not the way to lead me", "this is not the way that I thought a leader of me would be", "this is not going the way I thought it would/should", "I don't agree with that...and that...and that...oh and that"?
 

I don't understand is why some are so willing to assume/lose responsibility.

Deciding which way you're going for a walk is different than making life decisions which will impact a person's sense of fulfillment. If you decide you're moving, your partner leaves their job to accommodate you and then becomes thoroughly dissatisfied with their new one, you're still responsible. "You agreed to listen to me" only works about 2-3 times in any regular situation, why would it be any different in a relationship?

If the hard-disks you decided to ship to Europe for the cheaper labor get damaged, you still have to deal with the fallout, instead of telling your customers: "You gave them to us. Wasn't really our fault. Things happen."

It seems more convenient to let the other person remain responsible for their own fulfillment, but I personally don't fetishize decision-making.

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/12/2010 5:31:34 PM   
LadyRian


Posts: 486
Joined: 9/5/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

BUT...how many women, submissive or not, say they want a man to lead and then, when he tries to do so in the same manner and way he has shown all along... with the only difference being that he has agreed to lead and they have agreed to obey and follow... throw up all kinds of obstacles?  "This is not the way to lead me", "this is not the way that I thought a leader of me would be", "this is not going the way I thought it would/should", "I don't agree with that...and that...and that...oh and that"?
 

Greetings CreativeDominant,

It is my belief that many people on both sides of the whip are attempting to pattern themselves after preconceived ideas of what dominance or submission entail rather than seeing the experience as a process of becoming instead. In my opinion it is difficult to state with any measure of confidence that you'll follow an individual without question until you've confronted and surmounted your biggest critic - y.o.u. We have a propensity for talking ourselves into and out of situations merely because the idea of its unfolding is more appealing than the reality that takes place. When we seek to empty the vessel and cease to cling to what is comfortably familiar the seeds of submission begin to bloom. However, if the focus remains on the individual and never expands beyond it, the cycle of disappointment will continue to churn. It's not about you, but two.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



I agree with what you both are saying here. As a female Dominant, I have encountered the very thing CD is describing, from a male submissive, and the result was the demise of the relationship. Add a little bit of "The Grass Is Greener" syndrome, and then leadership is virtually impossible, a relationship incorporating the dynamic is doomed.


_____________________________

"Dodging bullets since 2010"

(in reply to porcelaine)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: 'Taken in Hand" - 10/13/2010 2:09:14 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Well with that kinda attichood you can expect a whole helluvvalot of corner time when you're taken in hand lil missy potty-mouth.


Ruh roh! I'm sowwy...are you going to spank me non-erotically?


Oh bugger, I'm undone. You can read me like a comic.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to jujubeeMB)
Profile   Post #: 60
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