RE: The need to be rude?!? (Full Version)

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WyldHrt -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 12:59:44 AM)

quote:

Don't talk to me about Pots and Kettles when your cookware yourself.

If you say so. That said, I don't make excuses for my posts.
quote:

Have I ever said it was okay? As a matter of fact I've said the opposite...the difference being that I know that it's wrong and that I'm giving people what I and others get while others are choosing to tuck tail and run.

Yeah, thread after thread there's always a 'difference' that keeps your nastiness from being the same as other people's nastiness. In this case, you supposedly support samboct's premise that people should be polite on one hand, while posting nasty personal attacks on someone who said nothing offensive on the other. Funny, that.
quote:

I realize the futility in things but I don't always do them for the same reasons.

Your reasons are your own, but that doesn't make your habit of jumping into threads (particularly when certain users who seem to push your buttons are participating) with rude posts and personal attacks any more acceptable.

Justify it any way you like, but your recent posts have provided samboct with a nice example of exactly why so many women don't answer cmail from men who do not interest us.
Thanks.




barelynangel -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 6:00:42 AM)

You know folks, this thread is 9 pages long and sometimes you just have to know when to get over it.  Sam, it seems your biggest beef is people don't respond to what you deem are polite and conduscively written to "warrant" a response simply because YOU put time into doing so.

Let's take that a step farther -- you post here on a public message board with a MUCH larger audience than the one person you send a message to off the discussion board.  Do you think its impolite that everyone and their mother who has read your posts hasn't responded to same?  Do you think that just because you decided to grace people with your opinions, words, and time in posting that they are required to respond to you because well hell you are sooo important?  I don't think even you can be that arrogant to believe everyone MUST respond to your posts here.

Its the same way on the other side except your playing field is MUCH smaller.  Its a hit or miss concept.  Some people will read your post and decide to respond just as they do here or they may think despite the greatness you think was in your message that its NOT WORTH THEIR TIME to respond to you.  You may put great stock in your greatness and such but that doesn't mean anonymous nicknames on a message board is going to see the awe of lightness because you deemed it interesting to message them.

GET OVER IT.  Seriously, its a free, online, anonymous personals site.  See people responding to you as a BONUS not a expectancy.  Get over the "its not polite."  If you can't get this then perhaps you shouldn't be on a free, online, anonymous, personals' site because it is harmful to you due to how it disheartens you because people aren't doing what YOU want them to do because well gee, you think you are this great guy.   The problem you are having isn't about politeness, its about arrogance.  Yours.  You arrogantly think that your mails, your time, and your decision to message someone is SOO GREAT a thing that it deserves a response from anyone who you decide to bother with your mails.  Its arrogance because you believe that they should see your post as something worthy.  You will do much better on websites such as this if you simply realize that not everyone will think you are as great as you believe you are and not everyone will think that they are privileged to get a message from you and not everyone will care about the time it took for you to construct the email you sent them and many will decides they have more important things to do than respond to you.

Here's the biggest thing to learn -- DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.  DON'T start saying well how rude or how impolite or i did this and they didn't do that etc.   Its an anonymous personals website, if you take every non-response or bad response or a response that doesn't live up to your expectations you WILL get disheartened.  Remember, on this site until you actually GET TO KNOW someone, you are not really REAL.  So its not hard for a stranger to pass you by even if they give your mail a look see.  I mean do you read and respond to every advertisement that comes your way?  Or do you sometimes look at it and toss it aside as not important?

Despite you knowing you are a real person, online until people can put more than just a nickname to you, you aren't really real -- you are just some typewritten nickname online who sent some type written words to them.  MAYBE your messages may strike a cord in them wherein they WANT to respond, but more often then not -- it won't.   That's okay.

Please get over this ohhhh its not polite stuff.  This isn't saying that being polite is bad but polite is arbitrary in nature and you can't force your definition on everyone else because you aren't getting the results you want.  To me, your concept of polite is really on many levels nauseating.  Why?  Because you use the concept to whine about how people should do this and that and the other because that is what YOU want.  It reminds me of the concept of how people use passive aggressiveness and that to me is not polite at all but irritating.  Ohh i wanna tell you fuck you but i don't want to say those ugly words so i will still say fuck you but will do so in a way people hopefully won't see i am actually saying fuck you.  Got its utterly ewww lol. 

You will find yourself much less disheartened on a website like this if you don't take every non-response or mean respone etc personally.  Just as the ladies who are complaining about the emails they don't like or want etc shouldn't. 

Take personally those people you come to enjoy, take personally messages from people you start getting to know.  The rest is simply advertising flying by you just as it does offline. 

angel



samboct -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 6:52:19 AM)

Angel

You've missed my point completely.

1) I'd be arrogant if I expected everyone to say "YES!" to a missive of mine. I'll stick with the offer of a drink at a party- if you're at a party, and everyone ignores you- leave.
2) What this thread is making me think long and hard about is how workable this site really is for someone with my goals, to whit: a desire to meet someone with similar interests (defined broadly) who'd like to enjoy some companionship (short or long term) with a reasonable gent with some kinky tastes. Right now- I don't see how this site can work for someone like me.
3) It's one thing to be picked out of a pool of men who are considered reasonable guys. Given the ratio of men to women (and I'm using 3:1) the odds aren't great, but I've had some degree of success in the past.
4) It's an entirely different situation is you're trying to be picked out as a reasonable guy from a bunch of stalkers. First off, it can't be done. There can be the illusion of control on the part of the women who think they can do so- but it's like viewing a bunch of murderers and saying you can figure out who did it by looking at them. Yes, some men are unsavory and will be rejected out of hand. But the pool of men being considered will have individuals that know how to camouflage themselves well enough to be picked. In fact, they'll probably be picked before a guy like me- I don't have that kind of charm. And the facts back me up- that so many women here are complaining that the men that they responded to were really creeps. Well, since I don't get picked that often, that means that the creeps are getting picked ahead of me. And this is why- from my perspective-the site becomes unworkable. Or if not unworkable- then the odds are stacked even higher against guys like me. This is just a simple calculus of where I should spend my time in order to achieve my goals. Am I being self centered? Yup. But I'm damned if I see what hanging around a site where there is some significant chance that I'll be considered a stalker does anybody any good.
5) To Peon's classification scheme....I think that's probably not a bad model of how women operate at a party or a social situation in real life- or hell, maybe another dating site. The problem is that on this site, the response is the same regardless of classification, i.e. no response. It's only if the woman considers you interesting enough to overcome the fear barrier that she'll respond. And on this site, the fear barrier is set so high that in practice, most men can't clear it. So you're left with a site where people say they want to meet others, but they provide no incentive for the reasonable guys to stick around and are left with the creeps.

From my perspective- I think its time to start looking elsewhere.


Sam



PeonForHer -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 6:57:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Get over the "its not polite." 


I don't think that's going to work. 

This is because men who act in a decent sort of way assume that everyone - women, and men - will act the same way.  I do actually believe that decent men understand thuggish men perhaps even less than women do, in many ways.   We don't mix with that sort of man and we don't generally see the results of their thuggishness towards women because that usually happens behind closed doors.

Regarding CM and messaging: I think the sad truth of it is a good man won't generally understand that a woman's ignored his polite, friendly first-contact just because his message has come after a long string of one-liners or nasty messages, or because her polite rejection of the last man has led to an aggressive response from him. 
























Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 7:01:57 AM)

Your welcome but you haven't the slightest clue what your talking about.

I have in fact said many times that what I do is the same wrong as the next and have went on to explain why...Justification usually means that you don't see what your doing as wrong because you've made it okay in your mind..Which I have not, genius.

As a matter of fact, most of you have never gotten me at all. You imply that I'm reacting out of anger and in most cases you couldn't be further from the truth but your quickness to judge and self-surefooted attitudes won't allow you to see what's really happening. I'm okay with that because I'll continue to do what I do for the reasons that I do..Each reason being possibly slightly different than the next for each individual.

Shit we could go further..Most of you have (the regulars)tagged me with numerous nasty titles when you yourselves have acted in the same ways.

This is as always is more than slightly amusing to me..but please keep it up.[:D]



Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 7:05:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Get over the "its not polite." 


I don't think that's going to work. 

This is because men who act in a decent sort of way assume that everyone - women, and men - will act the same way.  I do actually believe that decent men understand thuggish men perhaps even less than women do, in many ways.   We don't mix with that sort of man and we don't generally see the results of their thuggishness towards women because that usually happens behind closed doors.

Regarding CM and messaging: I think the sad truth of it is a good man won't generally understand that a woman's ignored his polite, friendly first-contact just because his message has come after a long string of one-liners or nasty messages, or because her polite rejection of the last man has led to an aggressive response from him. 


The thuggish man understands it but it's still illogical.



Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 7:15:23 AM)

quote:

It's an entirely different situation is you're trying to be picked out as a reasonable guy from a bunch of stalkers. First off, it can't be done.

I'm gonna have to disagree here Sam. I've had excellent experiences meeting women on CM.(For the most part..needed to add that :>)

Just wanted to add: You may be asking yourself...How is this possible? Well I'm not usually a dick to women..Just these women lol. (and Men) :>

I do understand where your coming from and it isn't easy to find a compatible mate..most want totally different things than I do when it comes to the relationship part. More of them seem to want the illusion of slavery and the underlying being sex, sex and more sex. Hook up beat my ass and I'll call you on Tuesday Master.

I do get my share of ignores..Even though I classify it as rude...I don't take it personal.I look at it as a plus.



angelikaJ -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 7:21:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Your welcome but you haven't the slightest clue what your talking about.

I have in fact said many times that what I do is the same wrong as the next and have went on to explain why...Justification usually means that you don't see what your doing as wrong because you've made it okay in your mind..Which I have not, genius.

As a matter of fact, most of you have never gotten me at all. You imply that I'm reacting out of anger and in most cases you couldn't be further from the truth but your quickness to judge and self-surefooted attitudes won't allow you to see what's really happening. I'm okay with that because I'll continue to do what I do for the reasons that I do..Each reason being possibly slightly different than the next for each individual.

Shit we could go further..Most of you have (the regulars)tagged me with numerous nasty titles when you yourselves have acted in the same ways.

This is as always is more than slightly amusing to me..but please keep it up.[:D]


Glad I will undoutably give you another reason to be amused.

So the fact that you have your own reasons makes your behavior ok.... ?

By the way, does it really matter why you go off and attack certain people, Icarys?

If it is wrong, then why do you persist on doing it?

Is there some higher good you are trying to fulfill, or some sort of inner healing...?
In any case, your own reasons.... your agenda-.

My view of interactions on the forums is much more simplistic than yours:
Is it true (to the best of my knowledge) and is it kind?
I don't do either perfectly and when I don't, more often than not I go back and apologise.

I can live with mine. I'm glad you can live with yours.

I'm grateful I don't have to walk in your shoes.

I wish you peace.



Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 7:30:46 AM)

Thank you. I wish you peace as well.



Bella1965 -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 7:57:40 AM)

G'morning all:



quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
....that doesn't live up to your expectations.....


Sam, here's the part of this entire thread you're missing. (Which I've only skimmed.) You have no right to expect a bunch of strangers to perform or conform according to your dictates. Forget that is is the internet. Forget this is a BDSM site. Leave that all behind. Accept the fact that people are individuals and will act as they will.

To me, courtesy is the lubrication that makes society as a whole work more smoothly. This doesn't mean I expect it from strangers. I do give strangers the benefit of the doubt until they prove me wrong. My point is this. Your personal morals/ethics are your own. Only you can hold to them. Do not unrealistically expect others to follow the same codes. For those "special" people? There are functions such as block, hide other user's profile, ignore, etc. that will enable peace of mind here.

To the OP? Employ the search function and the features I mentioned above. You may not be new to the lifestyle but are you new to using your senses? I think not. This topic has been done, done, and done ad nauseuam. Nine pages, mon dieu.



Stay safe, play nice & share your toys w/ others...


[:D]


Bella



Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 8:18:33 AM)

I would imagine that Sam has enough sense to see that about people but I think your missing a bigger point or at the very least your choosing your point as higher on the totem pole.

Almost every single person that's an adult knows that Sam's idea of what courtesy is..is well accepted. We're not some totally different group of human beings.

I say that most people know Sam is correct and act accordingly online as they do offline when it comes to manners. I can't prove this but I pretty damn sure I'm right.

People have adopted different ideas of this because it's online and as he has stated..Probably because they wouldn't have the same ramifications as if they were to act that way in public. Face to face....They get brave/er then.

For as much as people want to say they are no different online as off..Well it's just a bunch of bullshit as far as I'm concerned. To add: If I can't trust a person to see truths like that..plain common sense logical truths..then I have to wonder about their personal ability in seeing truths within their own lives.



samboct -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 8:20:20 AM)

Hi Bella

We're talking past each other- I'll try again. Look- its not that my dictates aren't being followed- like Peon points out as well- it's the dictates of any reasonable guy.

I'll throw out another analogy-

Given who I am, and who my friends are-we don't frequent biker bars. Don't like the amount of drinking, the amount of macho posturing, fighting etc. I'm also not really interested in biker chicks- because the kind of woman that would like that kind of a guy- well she's not going to like me- and I'm probably not going to be too crazy about her- we have different values. Does this mean that I think biker bars should be shut down? Hell no- lots of people like them- I'm just not one of them. Doesn't make them wrong, just makes them not to my taste. I'm happier in a restaurant drinking a glass of wine or a good scotch.

If I'm making the discovery that this site is the dating equivalent of a biker bar- then I'm going to go look elsewhere. If the women on this site are happy with the guys that they're meeting- fine. All I'm saying is that a reasonable guy is likely going to go someplace else when the women he meets are looking at him like he's a creep.

In short- women in this site have the right to act however they please- but don't be surprised when it gets overrun by creeps after you've chased off all the reasonable guys. To expect anything else is just wishful thinking...


Sam



LadyPact -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 8:32:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I don't think that's going to work. 

This is because men who act in a decent sort of way assume that everyone - women, and men - will act the same way.  I do actually believe that decent men understand thuggish men perhaps even less than women do, in many ways.   We don't mix with that sort of man and we don't generally see the results of their thuggishness towards women because that usually happens behind closed doors.

Regarding CM and messaging: I think the sad truth of it is a good man won't generally understand that a woman's ignored his polite, friendly first-contact just because his message has come after a long string of one-liners or nasty messages, or because her polite rejection of the last man has led to an aggressive response from him. 

I can't really go for this, peon.  I consider you a reasonable man.  I also know this is not the first thread of this type that you've participated on as well as talking with a number of women who have told you about some of the things that come through in email.  Considering that you have this information, are you really telling Me that you don't understand why some women do not answer emails?

This same information that you have isn't a secret.  It's plastered all over the net.  (As I mentioned earlier, it can cross over to the physical world, too.  I'll promise you that I've been with people at munches or gatherings where we'll talk about our internet experience.)  Whether people pay attention to it is another matter, but it really is out there.  Sure, sometimes there are those who will try to make it less than what it is or say 'well, that's not how I behave, so I'm different' but that isn't really how it works.  The whole of the internet experience doesn't start over with every new contact.

I happen to think most reasonable men would have some kind of curiosity about why this happens.  They can either make a hypothesis made of their own conjecture or they can listen to the data available to them.



KatyLied -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 8:37:56 AM)

When oh when will men learn?  No response = not interested.  Not interested in you.  Not interested in listening to you try to sell yourself.  No interested in hearing you whine and humiliate yourself as you beg for my attention.  Not interested in your phone number, im, email.



Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 8:38:16 AM)

It's funny to see and I don't think anyone has hit it home quite yet is..

I've been alive for 40 something years and had a life that probably wasn't to off the beaten path that others have had. Interactions with hundreds of people or more over that time and spent that same life in this society...Now nobody can tell me that what Sam is saying is incorrect in the sense of social rights and wrongs. We've all seen these in society as a whole.

Here's the funny part to me..If the above is true and I believe it is then the people that are complaining about guys not responding well when ignored are in fact expecting the standards to change for them. When it doesn't..The guys are responsible.

You can do what you want..You don't have to reply to people but use your fucking heads...You are going to get bad replies if your doing what is seen as rude to a large amount of people..and you are.



samboct -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 8:46:12 AM)

Hi Bella

I dug this out from your journal-

"I wish to be viewed as a human being first, a lady second, and as a dominant last."

I think this is a perfectly reasonable request- heck its one which would lead me to be interested in you.

Turning it around and spelling it out- "I wish to be viewed as a human being first, a guy second, and a submissive last."

Really- is that how you're looking at me when you say it's ok to not respond to a polite email? Because from my perspective, it doesn't come across that way. I'm in agreement with Icarys here- there are two sets of rules being used and that's a problem long term.


Sam



LadyPact -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 9:14:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
Here's the funny part to me..If the above is true and I believe it is then the people that are complaining about guys not responding well when ignored are in fact expecting the standards to change for them. When it doesn't..The guys are responsible.

You can do what you want..You don't have to reply to people but use your fucking heads...You are going to get bad replies if your doing what is seen as rude to a large amount of people..and you are.

I might not have been clear due to My lack of caffeine yet this morning. 

First, let Me say that I am not complaining.  What I have done on this thread is try to  contribute information from My perspective.  As I said in My response to peon, if women don't add this information, then men have no data as to why this happens.  To Me, that's a flawed way to go about this.  The question boils down to "why".  We're telling why.

I'm also a bit hung up on your repeated mention of replies.  In My case, it's not about replies.  It has to do with initial emails.  "Replies" really don't figure in for My case.  I'm not sending out the beginning contact and getting crap in return. 

I do think that people are responsible for what they send in an initial email.  When they sit down to type out that first contact, they are responsible for their actions.  What they say is completely on their decision on how they want to conduct themselves. 

On any internet site of this nature, there is going to be a certain percentage of males who see it as a free fuck site.  Many come here thinking that any woman who has a profile here is going to react the way they have seen in porn or fantasized about after reading erotica.  Call it the nature of the beast if you will, but it is the reality of the experience here.



Icarys -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 9:24:40 AM)

quote:

I do think that people are responsible for what they send in an initial email. When they sit down to type out that first contact, they are responsible for their actions. What they say is completely on their decision on how they want to conduct themselves.

Absolutely..

The only thing I have to say about people sending nasty first emails without seemingly any reason: I agree that some of them will do this because they are just that way..Maybe they hate women..Maybe they see something in the profile that sets them off..Maybe they were rejected by the last one..Maybe their rent is late and they want to take it out on someone..Who the hell knows for sure specifically..Definitely not a good thing.

There's the side Sam has mentioned though...In choosing to not reply..You yourself have been rude to the nice guy.

Neither of those situations are turning out for the good and in the long run..I feel that Sam may be correct..The nice guys may go elsewhere and give up a bit..much like the people who are shutting down there profiles because of the nasty emails.

Then all you'll have left are the tenacious assholes like me...Don't want that do you? [:D]



PeonForHer -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 9:25:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
I don't think that's going to work. 

This is because men who act in a decent sort of way assume that everyone - women, and men - will act the same way.  I do actually believe that decent men understand thuggish men perhaps even less than women do, in many ways.   We don't mix with that sort of man and we don't generally see the results of their thuggishness towards women because that usually happens behind closed doors.

Regarding CM and messaging: I think the sad truth of it is a good man won't generally understand that a woman's ignored his polite, friendly first-contact just because his message has come after a long string of one-liners or nasty messages, or because her polite rejection of the last man has led to an aggressive response from him. 

I can't really go for this, peon.  I consider you a reasonable man.  I also know this is not the first thread of this type that you've participated on as well as talking with a number of women who have told you about some of the things that come through in email.  Considering that you have this information, are you really telling Me that you don't understand why some women do not answer emails?


Not at all.  I do understand why some women don't answer emails and, with my little experiment under way now with LadyNTrainer, I'm understanding even more.  Versus Icarys (from what I read of him, anyway):  if I were a woman, I think it actually would be the rational thing to do to ignore cmails much of the time.  I don't have the hide of a rhino and I know that women could say some pretty damaging things to me if they wanted to.

What I'm trying to explain is why good men won't find it easy to understand.   Bear in mind that a) I'm not stupid, b) I was talking to quite a few Dommes (and some femsubs) both here and off the boards for more than a year before c) I finally had some kind of epiphany about what it was all like.  It took that experience of that Domme friend of mine to get kicked, really badly, when she already down, to facilitate my getting some kind of grasp on it.  The vast majority of men using CM won't have had the learning opportunities that I've had . . . . 

I was something of an innocent.   Actually, I think I probably still am, in many ways.  (Hence, partly, my experiment, with LNT's help.)  But I think that many men are - if they're good men.  

My own conclusion - which is slightly depressing but in a somewhat different way to either samboct's or those  of the women writing here -, is that women will continue to get hurt by the crap and good men will continue to leave.  This is unless, somehow, both the women and the men somehow manage to get tougher, the women teach the men better about what it's like for them, and the men become more receptive to that teaching.






















barelynangel -> RE: The need to be rude?!? (10/9/2010 9:47:56 AM)

Peon, people will come and go from this site whether they are the "good," the "bad," or the "ugly."  Its all arbitrary.  To presume all the "good" men are leaving is ludicrous or however the heck you spell it.  On sites like this you have 1000s of people and each person has a concept of what they consider good or bad or ugly.  Therefore, the proportion is not as you seem to want to put it.  As far as i have talked to all the men i have spoken too seem to be "good" men, they just aren't men i am attracted too or interested in.

The concept of "good" is so arbitrary its a concept of individuality.  Its arrogance to believe that only certain criteria defines what is good for a site that has 1000s of people on it.

I think too many people are caught up in this witch hunt concept of people who send mails they don't want.  Get over it, concentrate on what you DO enjoy and if you say you can't then no one can help you because you then to me seem to enjoy the drama.   Its not hard to block and delete -- with the roll over concept its even easier to ignore a message. 

Its up to the individual to decide what they are going to focus on -- the negative stuff they don't like or the positive stuff they do.  Trying to arbitrarily place people you don't like how they message as "not good" men is simply silly and to me is trying to hard.

To some people i am a complete bitch -- does that make me not a good person?  Nope cause to some people i am the bomb.  To others, i am a great friend and to others i am anti social and to others i am someone with a temper and no patience.

I react differently to different people -- the concept of what makes someoen "good" is arbitrary so your statement needs to be re-evaluated by you.

I personally have no problem when people leave the site because they aren't finding what they are seeking or don't want to deal with what they have to with a site with 1000s of people on it all vying for the same thing -- to find what they seek.

Whether its a fuck toy as LP described or a shy, unassuming person simply looking for a friend.  No one here has the ability to decide that what someone is seeking is wrong or shouldn't be on this site OUTSIDE the concepts listed in the TOS -- i.e, rape or beastiality or stuff like that.  Anything else is fair game and unfortunately, people have to deal with people contacting them.  

Maybe the filters can be better and more of them so that people can pick and choose based on what people put in their profile who they want contacting them.  I have been informed that if you friend someone they will not be filtered out by your set filers.

i get its a pain in the ass WE ALL go through  it or some other irritation on the site, whether its a domme or a dom or a sub or a slave.  In the end, some will care some won't and others don't see an issue because in the end its free anonymous, online, personals site -- it shouldn't be that deep of a concept in anyone's life.  People come and go every day.  I do not believe all the GOOD sub guys are leaving, just as i don't believe the reason people leave is due to this issue.

Also, i think what many people need to understand is just because people aren't saying in droves they deal with crap -- if you really look at the people commenting it is NOT a lot based on the number of people on this message board and the site.  But its a very few.  Maybe its just not that serious of issue for many which is why they aren't saying anything -- its not that deep and they simply are able to dismiss it without it becoming a huge deal for them.  That also needs to be taken into consideration.

angel



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