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RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/7/2010 8:30:27 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Okkkkkay,

This is again an extract from the Federalist papers:

(I realize, as a Canadian, that you may not be familiar with them, but they are pretty much required reading for anyone who wishes to understand the origins and reasons behind our original Constitution, but ... what-the-hell ... rml doesn't understand them either, and he's a citizen ...)

It is a misfortune incident to republican government, though in a less degree than to other governments, that those who administer it may forget their obligations to their constituents, and prove unfaithful to their important trust. In this point of view, a senate, as a second branch of the legislative assembly, distinct from, and dividing the power with, a first, must be in all cases a salutary check on the government. It doubles the security to the people, by requiring the concurrence of two distinct bodies in schemes of usurpation or perfidy, where the ambition or corruption of one would otherwise be sufficient.

Does this sound like it is "the people" that were not trusted, or that a second legislative house would act as a check on politicians who might forget that their place was to represent "the people"?

It's called "checks and balances", not "we don't trust the unwashed scum who are the public".


So you are just re-posting the same thing you did earlier while completely ignoring the point I raised and trying to discredit her opinion because she is not American.


I thought perhaps you just missed reading it the first time.

Ignorance can be corrected through education, if one has an open mind.

I addressed your point originally.  I addressed your point again.

Willful blindness is not something that can be so easily remedied, unfortunately.

You are one of the willful blind, and I have done my peaceful best.

I suspect that the method required to educate you will be more personally painful than simply words on the internet.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/7/2010 8:32:30 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: playfulotter

I saw a funny bumper sticker yesterday afternoon on a car that was in front of me....

"Tea parties are for little girls with imaginary friends"



(in reply to playfulotter)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/7/2010 8:35:00 PM   
cuckoldmepls


Posts: 855
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline 		Sounds like someone is in panic mode watching the tea party movement grow like wildfire. Well don't get your panties in a bunch. Eventually the tea party will peter out, but right now, Congress is leaning so far to the radical left, that no one is concerned about electing truly conservative people who would actually abide by the Constitution.

I don't know what the 17th amendment is, but tea partiers do, and I'm not the least bit concerned about people who would abide by the Constitution. What concerns me more, are the people who have ignored the constitution ever since the 1913 federal act was passed, which authorized a private agency to coin our money, which is specifically forbidden in the constitution. Only the federal government themselves have the power to coin money.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/7/2010 9:01:13 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Another advantage accruing from this ingredient in the constitution of the Senate is, the additional impediment it must prove against improper acts of legislation. No law or resolution can now be passed without the concurrence, first, of a majority of the people, and then, of a majority of the States.




really?

Hey firm....

when was the last time you voted for a constitutional amendment?

How about your mom and dad?

grandma and grandpa?

I know  Great grandma and great grandpa,

No ok then

great great great grandma and grand pa did though right?

hmmmm?

how can this be?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/7/2010 9:17:00 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

I don't hate the Constitution, Joe Miller does.  He's the one who wants to change it.  As it currently exists, we the people vote for our Senators.  He wants to change that.  Is there some part of the story that was especially confusing for you?

The Constitution allows for amendments as times change.  That's what happened in 1913.  Miller and the teahadists want to go back and undo that (and who knows what else).  If we went back to the way the Founders started, we would have slavery.  And only property-owning white men would vote - and even then they couldn't vote for president or their senators.    Do you really want to go back to 1789?    Be careful what you wish for.



people had freedom in 1789.

Now that may not fit your idea of freedom because the people simply were not educated back then to understand how to use that freedom.

Women voting?  women had dowerys back then why would they care?  Women voting added to the tax base.  In those days the people got to openly choose (consent) to be governed at least until 1861+ when the feds restricted 10 I believe southern states from sufferage to unlawfully pass the 14th amendment. 

1913 is when the federal reserve was put in. oh joy!  All the 14th did is take the physical chains off the blacks and put the invisible debt chains on everyone who was not in the big club.

this is proven and your congress knows all about it in 1967 discussion and its all in the congressional record.

If you want freedom you need to go back at least to the AOC to some extent and better is the DOI....after that forget it.  Its a down hill ride and now you got people like lucky wants to completely bypass the states altogether.  (not that its not already in place to do so)

btw the constitution isnt for you its for them.  they are UNDER it not you.  You are the grantor of the trust!

Its no different than any other CORPORATE charter ;)





< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/7/2010 9:20:19 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/7/2010 10:19:04 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		final thought on the matter there is NO separation in government that is an illusion.

yeh yeh I know you got all these different names there has to be right? wrong.

where in the constitution does it say that the people who work for us in government get to interpret the constitution for the people?

yeh yeh the judicial but what power does the gubmint have over the people?  I cannot find anywhere that the gubmint has any power over people.  (just citizens)  and citizens = persons.
and persons = masks.

meaning if you put on a firemen hat then you are a fireman "operating" in the person of the same in service to the gubmint and later you put on the judges hat you "operating" in the person of the same in service to the gubmint as a trustee via the SACRED oath taken to the people to uphold said trust.

who needs religion right?

that is the mask. = person in the gubmint LABORING UNDER the constitution.

A sub corporation to kingy boys United States of America Corporation.  13 freemen plantation owners who swore friendship toward each other.

and they created the corporation called the United States!  Not united States or united states but United States to take care of the business between the plantations.

You know We The People.  NOT We the people and they eventually made a dolla and on each one they tell us about the IN GOD WE TRUST

so here we are never made one amendment to the sacred cow that we are not a party to in the first place. LOL

How many of you all got to vote on the amendments of your states?  Hmmm?

Let see separation?
Sure ok.
We get to go to the polls but like every country in the world have so much voter/ballot electronic fraud that they can put in who ever they want.
the president appoints the judges
you do not interpret your own constitution they have to work under they do.  Its common practice for the employees to judge the contract made by the employers and owners.
the legislature created and set up the courts and made the rules, article 3 courts are non existant, common law is all but extinct except fot the very few who understand how to invoke it and that is where YOUR RIGHTS are enforced NOWHERE else!
ALL courts are under the APA and title 50 and and you the american?  Well you are the enemy of the state.

Oh dont cry, you gave up your freedom for licenses and privileges to do unlawful things under the United States corporation.

You are RE-presented not presented.  When you hire an attorney and you tell him to enter certain paperwork into court and he refuses to tough luck charlie you signed over your rights to the "person" who is SPEAKING FOR YOU!

try it go to court and try it!  The only way out is to fire the attorney on the spot!  Then you can enter your paperwork, like suing the judge that he would never do because he knows he cuts his own throat if he does!

There is NO separation its an illusion easiy provable with very little homework and common sense impartial approach.

Its a great world and even better gubmint!






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 10/7/2010 10:26:04 PM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:08:07 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I am all for the repeal of the 17th.
It is clear to anyone who can call himself a student of American history that the federal government is much much more powerful, vis a vis the States, than the founders intended. This imbalance could be rectified in part by the suggested repeal. The most immediate effect might well be an end to unfunded mandates......
There is no downside other than the hurt feelings of those who do not understand the concept of representative democracy.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:13:01 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I am all for the repeal of the 17th.
It is clear to anyone who can call himself a student of American history that the federal government is much much more powerful, vis a vis the States, than the founders intended. This imbalance could be rectified in part by the suggested repeal. The most immediate effect might well be an end to unfunded mandates......
There is no downside other than the hurt feelings of those who do not understand the concept of representative democracy.


So let me try and understand this pretzel logic.

Taking the the vote away from the voters constitutes representative democracy?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:20:30 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

So you are just re-posting the same thing you did earlier while completely ignoring the point I raised and trying to discredit her opinion because she is not American.


I thought perhaps you just missed reading it the first time.

Ignorance can be corrected through education, if one has an open mind.

I addressed your point originally.  I addressed your point again.

Willful blindness is not something that can be so easily remedied, unfortunately.

You are one of the willful blind, and I have done my peaceful best.

I suspect that the method required to educate you will be more personally painful than simply words on the internet.

Firm


Good job Firmy!!



If you can't address the point then just claim you did and the other person is too stupid to understand.

One of your usual tactics.

The last one is new though.

Taking lessons from gator boy in the School of I'm a Badass?



(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:20:56 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Did you miss the part about not understanding the concept?

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:28:10 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Miller flip flops
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/house/the-17th-amendment-resurfaces.html?wprss=thefix

So now the cons will argue how not repealing the 17th is th eright thing to do.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:31:46 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Did you miss the part about not understanding the concept?


No, I didn't.

In fact that was what I responded to.

But you haven't answered.

So let me rephrase the question.

How does taking away the rights of voters promote representative democracy and what do you define as representative democracy?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:35:30 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Representative democracy. We vote for people who represent us.
Repeal the 17th, we vote for people who represent us in Senatorial elections.
Simple concept.
Unfunded mandates= gone.
States rights= restored.
Constitution= some of its original genius restored.
Simple results.

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:42:43 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		so you cant touch the constitution unless you think its a good idea..ok gotcha



_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 6:45:16 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

so you cant touch the constitution unless you think its a good idea


Duh.
That's why they made it hard to do?????

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 7:25:11 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

If you can't address the point then just claim you did and the other person is too stupid to understand.


Perhaps you don't understand the difference between "willful blindness" and "stupid".

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 7:26:35 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

so you cant touch the constitution unless you think its a good idea..ok gotcha


uhh, so ... you are saying that we should only touch the Constitution when it's a bad idea? 

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 7:26:38 AM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SuzanneKneeling

I don't hate the Constitution, Joe Miller does.  He's the one who wants to change it.  As it currently exists, we the people vote for our Senators.  He wants to change that.  Is there some part of the story that was especially confusing for you?

The Constitution allows for amendments as times change.  That's what happened in 1913.  Miller and the teahadists want to go back and undo that (and who knows what else).  If we went back to the way the Founders started, we would have slavery.  And only property-owning white men would vote - and even then they couldn't vote for president or their senators.    Do you really want to go back to 1789?    Be careful what you wish for.


Obama hates the Constitution more than any other politician I've ever known. He's the one who wants to change it from a document of "negative rights" (his words) to a document of "positive rights" (my words). As it current exists, the Constitution severely restricts what the Federal government can do to the States and/or "We the people...". Obama wants to not only change that but, moreover, actually reverse that. Is there some part of that that's confusing for you?

The Constitution does indeed allow for amendments as times change. That's happened more than just in 1913. Obama and his progressive Democratic cohorts in Congress have already ignored/subverted/violated that Constitutional process more than once (and who knows how many more times they want to). No doubt it's too much to ask that you even consider, never mind believe, that Joe Miller speaks for himself and not for the majority of the Tea Party. The majority of the Tea Party do indeed want a Federal government based upon what the Founders started but do not want to go back to 1789 or all the way back to 1776. Be careful what you say about that which you obviously know very little, if anything at all.

(in reply to SuzanneKneeling)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 7:30:27 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

so you cant touch the constitution unless you think its a good idea..ok gotcha


uhh, so ... you are saying that we should only touch the Constitution when it's a bad idea? 

Firm


grins ..of course..
nah, just that six months ago, everyone was saying that Obama is attacking it by wanting to change it, but suddenly its ok  for others to want to amend it.
Im all for a living progressive (not recessive) constitution:)


_____________________________

(•_•)
<) )╯SUCH
/ \

\(•_•)
( (> A NASTY
/ \

(•_•)
<) )> WOMAN
/ \

Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Nutbag teahadist Joe Miller wants to abolish direct... - 10/12/2010 7:36:59 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Representative democracy. We vote for people who represent us.
Repeal the 17th, we vote for people who represent us in Senatorial elections.
Simple concept.
Unfunded mandates= gone.
States rights= restored.
Constitution= some of its original genius restored.
Simple results.


No actually it is not so simple.

What you are saying is that by eliminating direct voting for Senators we are somehow enhancing democracy.

And you are saying that by again using the twisted logic that because we elect those that would then appoint the Senators that this is the true meaning of a representative democracy.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 80
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