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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:13:05 PM   
lockedaway


Posts: 1720
Joined: 3/15/2007
Status: offline 		"Modern liberals, on the other hand:

A US "liberal" today generally believes in: multiculturalism, increased government control, group versus individual rights, the hatred of Christianity, anti-free market, and a distaste of Western culture, institutions and history among other things.

Firms "

Hear, Hear!!! But you left a few things out.  Modern liberals believe that American exceptionalism is a myth, that the sexual education of our young is best left up to teachers, that America is a sinister place that needs to be apologized for around the globe.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:20:27 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Really? We ended welfare? Hmmm... seems like I saw something about that, just here recently...

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/oct/04/local/la-me-welfare-20101004

You're full of shit, Animu, and so is your premise. Your "proofs" consist of sales pitch and spin. You have your nifty little artificial 30 year line, but you don't seem to want to talk about what the economy looked like when the country elected Reagan to start your cycle.

You've been called on moving goalposts, you were called on saying 'nothing was big enough,' before you even said it, and now you are falling back to a position of nothing but pathos, with images of the Great Depression.

You want to talk about giant public works projects? Great. Why don't you start by telling us all about the price of high schools in Los Angeles, or maybe why LA has no intention of ever connecting the subway boondoggle to the airport? Is it those baa-aaad Republicans running the city? Oh. Here's a good one. Why not tell us all about how much California has already borrowed and spent on high speed rail, without digging a foot of roadbed? Those conservatives sure have a lock on Sacramento, don't they?

Maybe your gripe isn't with conservatives at all here, Animu. Maybe you are projecting your anger over the incompetence of the liberals.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:22:49 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex





Looking at the graphic, what is the one expense that has increased out of proportion to all the other?

Taxes. From $9,288 (24%) in 1973 to $22,374 (33%) in 2003.

It is the only expense category that went up, except for the new category of "Daycare" that did not exist in 1973.

I theorize that the wife had to take a job in order to pay the increased taxes, and thereby also had to pay the additional child care cost.

The total tax burden (direct and indirect) would therefore be $22,374 (taxes) plus $9,670 (Daycare) for a total of $32,044 or roughly 47% of what the family earned.

This would still leave the family with a second car, and the insurance to cover it.

So, the proximate cause of the income gap between 1973 and now is ... increased taxes.

Firm

I suppose the fact that when income goes up, the taxpayer moves into a higher tax bracket, has absolutely nothing to do with it, right? I doubt you could be any more disingenuous.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:25:26 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex

Firm-
What you are writing is the broad philosophical underpinnings of conservatism; and as far as that goes, they are fine and well meaning.

But the American conservative movement has specific policy goals- the four I named above are the mainstay of the movement. I could list others, like the cultural issues, or add more economic ones, but the main domestic policy of the conservative movement are those four.

So the question remains- what wasn't tried, that would make things different?

What will the conservatives do to restore the American middle class?

Smart money will be on anything that rhymes with "Ax Butts".


Taxes are the fuel that feeds governmental growth and power, and conversely subtracts from the individual's sovereignty and rights.

If you basically agree with the points that I posted above about the goals of modern American conservatism, then the question is what must we do to achieve them, and what are the ideological/moral principles that differ between your beliefs, and those of conservatives?

Let's start at the higher levels, and see if we can get agreement on the basis of actions, and then follow that with how to express those beliefs in programs and policies.

Firm


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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:27:55 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

]I suppose the fact that when income goes up, the taxpayer moves into a higher tax bracket, has absolutely nothing to do with it, right? I doubt you could be any more disingenuous.




Think about what you said for a minute, owner.

I'll wait.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:31:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AnimusRex



Smart money will be on anything that rhymes with "Ax Butts".


Well, Obama's CBO said that retaining the Bush tax cuts would increase GDP by 1.5-1.7% over letting them expire. (Funny how Dems say tax cuts dont work, but a large number of them dont want any of the tax cuts to expire. "You dont raise taxes in a recession" is the line, but they actually know tax cuts DO work. Even Obamas former advisor said so).

And you do know that letting the Bush tax cut rates remain except for the two top brackets and letting the other Bush tax provisions expire is still a big tax increase for those earning over $50,000, dont you?

I will bet you any amount you like (if its held in escrow by someone we both agree to) that if any of the Bush tax cut provisions are allowed to expire unemployment will be over 10% sometime before mid 2011, and if they all are retained and the AMT is fixed as Obama promised, the Dow will be over 11,999 sometime before the end of the year. If the Dow reaches 11,500 but not 12,000 its a push, less than 11,500 you win.

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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:33:00 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Modern liberals, on the other hand:

A US "liberal" today generally believes in: multiculturalism, increased government control, group versus individual rights, the hatred of Christianity, anti-free market, and a distaste of Western culture, institutions and history among other things.

Firms


You actually believe this tripe, don't you?


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:36:11 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Modern liberals, on the other hand:

A US "liberal" today generally believes in: multiculturalism, increased government control, group versus individual rights, the hatred of Christianity, anti-free market, and a distaste of Western culture, institutions and history among other things.

Firms


You actually believe this tripe, don't you?



didnt your mother teach you to sit quietly when adults are talking?

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:40:11 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Modern liberals, on the other hand:

A US "liberal" today generally believes in: multiculturalism, increased government control, group versus individual rights, the hatred of Christianity, anti-free market, and a distaste of Western culture, institutions and history among other things.

Firms


You actually believe this tripe, don't you?



didnt your mother teach you to sit quietly when adults are talking?
Is that what your mother made you do when she was negotiating prices with her tricks?


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:44:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Modern liberals, on the other hand:

A US "liberal" today generally believes in: multiculturalism, increased government control, group versus individual rights, the hatred of Christianity, anti-free market, and a distaste of Western culture, institutions and history among other things.

Firms


You actually believe this tripe, don't you?



didnt your mother teach you to sit quietly when adults are talking?
Is that what your mother made you do when she was negotiating prices with her tricks?



A 3rd grade retort from a 3rd grade intellect.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:45:52 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Modern liberals, on the other hand:

A US "liberal" today generally believes in: multiculturalism,
Yes

quote:

increased government control,
No
quote:

group versus individual rights,
No
quote:

the hatred of Christianity,
No
quote:

anti-free market,
No
quote:

and a distaste of Western culture, institutions and history among other things.
No

One out of six is surprisingly bad even for you.

Modern US liberals believe in multiculturalism, reduced government interference in individuals lives, expanded individual rights, religious pluralism, a free market that is constrained by the rights of the individual and an appreciation of all the world's cultures, institutions and history.

Modern US neo-conservatives, you are a prime example, are narrow minded, authoritarian xenophobes with a weird inability to learn the lessons of history.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:50:30 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen




Modern US liberals believe in multiculturalism, reduced government interference in individuals lives, expanded individual rights, religious pluralism, a free market that is constrained by the rights of the individual and an appreciation of all the world's cultures, institutions and history.



I guess the Dems dont represent [your version] of liberalism then, because they sure as hell try as hard as they can to accomplish the opposite.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 9:53:38 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen




Modern US liberals believe in multiculturalism, reduced government interference in individuals lives, expanded individual rights, religious pluralism, a free market that is constrained by the rights of the individual and an appreciation of all the world's cultures, institutions and history.



I guess the Dems dont represent [your version] of liberalism then, because they sure as hell try as hard as they can to accomplish the opposite.

No they aren't perfect but I'll take them over a bunch of people who hate all of the Bill of Rights except the 2nd and the 10th and who applauded the Citizen's United ruling. That's the GOP for those who were asleep for the last 10 years.

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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 10:06:37 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen




Modern US liberals believe in multiculturalism, reduced government interference in individuals lives, expanded individual rights, religious pluralism, a free market that is constrained by the rights of the individual and an appreciation of all the world's cultures, institutions and history.





I guess the Dems dont represent [your version] of liberalism then, because they sure as hell try as hard as they can to accomplish the opposite.

No they aren't perfect but I'll take them over a bunch of people who hate all of the Bill of Rights except the 2nd and the 10th and who applauded the Citizen's United ruling. That's the GOP for those who were asleep for the last 10 years.


We'll see who ignores the Constitution after Blowboy loses control of Congress.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 10:08:03 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Ok, DK, you have the floor.

What do you (and, by extension most liberals) believe as core principles?

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 10:12:46 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Ok, DK, you have the floor.

What do you (and, by extension most liberals) believe as core principles?

Firm


You really do have a problem reading for comprehension. Wake Treasure up and get her to read my previous response to you and explain the parts you don't understand.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 10:27:13 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ok, DK, you have the floor.

What do you (and, by extension most liberals) believe as core principles?


You really do have a problem reading for comprehension. Wake Treasure up and get her to read my previous response to you and explain the parts you don't understand.





_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/7/2010 10:39:48 PM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Ok, DK, you have the floor.

What do you (and, by extension most liberals) believe as core principles?

Firm

Why would Ken (or I) bother? You have already told us what we believe. And there can be no disputing what you know is true. After all, conservatives are always correct about everything, even to the extent of correcting us Progressives when we think we believe something which you know we don't believe.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/8/2010 7:00:28 AM   
THELADY


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Status: offline 		ya know......this bs about the wife working out side the home is the biggest bs of them all. My grand parents and everyone else in the mill town they lived in, all worked outsde the home....both man and woman. it was only my parents generation that the wife often, not always, but often stayed home. I remember a lot of friends moms who worked during that period. I know several moms who stay at home these days too!

a lot of women work today cos they choose to do so, to say we only work to keep our family income up is an insult to a LOT of career women.

the middle class has been thriving, in my parents day (the 50's-60's)they owned small tiny 3 bedroom homes, now they own homes that are 3 times bigger. my parents had one car now they have 2 or more.

Oh AND never has schools been free, they have always been paid for with taxes. the bus's used to be only for kids who lived more than a mile away from school. I remember walking half a mile to school. and we went home for llunch!!!! I was in the 4th grade before I ate lunch at school, dad made another stripe....pay increase, and mom found paying for lunches was preferable to having her day interupted by kids in the middle of the day.

the government did not create the jobs then and they don't create them now. the govt gave away less money to people who did not work, yet the families survived and the middle class kept moving up.

there has been recessions on an average of every 5 years since the great depression, yet the standard of living has continued to rise.

if one looks at history, when a recession occures and the govt interfears the recession is worse. the great depression is a direct result of govt interference and spending.
tax cuts leaves more money in the hands of the people to spend and hire, which leads to recovery.

the progressives (both democrats and republicans) have an unreal idea that the government should support the people, and the only way that can't be done is by taking away from the producers and giving it to the non producers.

hummmm from each according to his ability to pay...to each according to his need.....sound familiar? .....the communist manafesto....where is the utopia that has been created this way?

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
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RE: The Failure of Conservatism - 10/8/2010 7:18:50 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Ok, DK, you have the floor.

What do you (and, by extension most liberals) believe as core principles?

Firm


Either this is irony, or you're tarring a very large group of people with one brush.
I'd hope it's irony, as after a few of the tantrums you've throw on this board when somebody made a generalisation about conservatives, you'd seem a little hypocritical if you've come out with that with a straight face.

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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