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RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 5:12:40 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

So in the end Firm's entire argument boils down to the No True Scotsman fallacy.

He defines christians in such a way to exclude all the self identified christians who disagree with him on this subject.

You wish to place all Christians in the block "homophobes", regardless of the fact that the great majority of practicing Christians do not qualify, and despite the fact that there are thousands of years of history which points in exactly the opposite direction.

In response to your "true scotsman" claim, I'd say that any Christian who claims that specific bible passage "require" them to fear and hate homosexuals is mistaken, but can learn and be redeemed.  A mistaken Christian, but a Christian nonetheless.

After all, all things are possible in Christ, ya know.

Although ... no one has actually pointed out a passage, or any denomination's claim that the bible requires them to fear and hate homosexuals, or to be "homophobes", either.

I don't suspect your mind to change, however.  You don't appear to be any different, or any more tolerant or understanding of people than the most rabid homophobe is of homosexuality.  Just that your target is different.

Firm


Where do I claim all christians are homophobes? Look back very carefully over my posts. Where do I make any claim about the beliefs of any or all christians in regards homsexuals?

You are simply putting words in my mouth to fulfill your beliefs about me. Confirmation bias perhaps?

My point is and has been that you dismiss the 2 passages other christians use to condemn homosexuals and deny that any christian considers those passages relevant. You definitely engage in the No True Scotsman fallacy in this passage:
quote:

Seeking justifications for our actions is a human characteristic that does not change over time, but the message of love that the Christ gave to Christians is directly counter to "homophobia" or any other type of hate.

and here:
quote:

No, the old Testament doesn't count.

We are talking about Christianity, not Judaism.


Now that you are hopefully finished making shit up about other people and their beliefs perhaps we can have a rational discussion of the effect christianity has had on the acceptance of homosexuals in western culture. We could start with comparing and contrasting the treatment of homosexuals in greco roman culture pre and post christian conversion.

But probably you'll continue to insult me and make up outright lies about me.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 5:20:49 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

~ FR ~

I pointed out in another thread that the definition of religion includes:

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons

Which, of course, effectively defines as a "religion" virtually anything "a group of persons" wants to say is one. Similarly, if we are going to define as a "Christian" virtually anybody who says he is one, then that word too is rendered devoid of meaning. And in truth, it largely is anyway. Christianity is not a monolithic entity. There are a multitude of Christian denominations, and they differ on just about everything imaginable.

Now, I am all for roundly criticizing those who lift passages out of context, ignoring their wider textual, theological, and historical context in order to justify whatever hateful bit of business they're on about. But to use that as a club to bash a religion as a whole, be it Christianity or Islam, seems to me to say more about the speaker than it does about anything else.

K.

Another poster feeling a tad defensive about his professed religion. Reread what I've wriiten more carefully. You will find that I simply arguied that Leviticus was relevant to christians or it would not be in christian bibles. That doesn't mean I think the literal reading of the verses in question out of context should guide modern christians. A closer look at the context and the original Hebrew yields a very different interpretation than "homosexual sex is a capital crime."

But of course you were too busy trying to avoid being lumped in with hateful bigots like Hagee, Parsley and Robertson to consider that I had not tried to lump all christians anywhere. This shows more about you than it does me.

It's actually kind of sad. I suggest a long period of self reflection.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 5:32:52 PM   
odysseyIndeed


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/30/2009
Status: offline 		~ FR ~

If it is religion(specifically Christianity) that is a/the cause of homophobia because of those passages rather than already prejudiced people picking verses and using them out of context to try to justify their discrimination, why aren't all of the other sorts of people mentioned in the verse(liars, adulterers, thieves, etc.) just as discriminated against?


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 5:38:53 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Where do I claim all christians are homophobes? Look back very carefully over my posts. Where do I make any claim about the beliefs of any or all christians in regards homsexuals?

You are simply putting words in my mouth to fulfill your beliefs about me. Confirmation bias perhaps?

So, you don't believe that Christianity encourages "homophobia"?

Who knew ... we are arguing the same side!

Firm




_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 5:50:00 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Where do I claim all christians are homophobes? Look back very carefully over my posts. Where do I make any claim about the beliefs of any or all christians in regards homsexuals?

You are simply putting words in my mouth to fulfill your beliefs about me. Confirmation bias perhaps?

So, you don't believe that Christianity encourages "homophobia"?

Who knew ... we are arguing the same side!

Actually I would argue that the Christian Bible provides amunition for both those who hate homosexuals and for those who support homosexuals. I reject your lies and No True Scotsman claims.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 5:59:05 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Where do I claim all christians are homophobes? Look back very carefully over my posts. Where do I make any claim about the beliefs of any or all christians in regards homsexuals?

You are simply putting words in my mouth to fulfill your beliefs about me. Confirmation bias perhaps?

So, you don't believe that Christianity encourages "homophobia"?

Who knew ... we are arguing the same side!

Actually I would argue that the Christian Bible provides amunition for both those who hate homosexuals and for those who support homosexuals. I reject your lies and No True Scotsman claims.

I feel sorry for you, DomKen.

I hope you get better and that everything turns out OK for you.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 6:02:38 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Another poster feeling a tad defensive about his professed religion. Reread what I've wriiten more carefully. You will find that I simply arguied...

Well since you seem convinced that my post was referring to you, I accept your judgment. Who would know better?

However, I do have a quibble. Where have I professed Christianity as my religion? Now, you have given me occasion in the past to point out this annoying tendency of yours to assume that any idea which arises in that twisted imagination of yours must of necessity be the truth. But I would greatly appreciate it if you would at least make an effort to draw the line at posting outright lies when trying to justify the paranoid notions that afflict you.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/10/2010 6:14:12 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 6:38:26 PM   
dcnovice


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Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline 		FR

I wonder if I'm the only gay person reading this thread and curious what other queer folk think of it.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 7:55:55 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

You wish to place all Christians in the block "homophobes", regardless of the fact that the great majority of practicing Christians do not qualify, and despite the fact that there are thousands of years of history which points in exactly the opposite direction.

In response to your "true scotsman" claim, I'd say that any Christian who claims that specific bible passage "require" them to fear and hate homosexuals is mistaken, but can learn and be redeemed.  A mistaken Christian, but a Christian nonetheless.

After all, all things are possible in Christ, ya know.

Although ... no one has actually pointed out a passage, or any denomination's claim that the bible requires them to fear and hate homosexuals, or to be "homophobes", either.

I don't suspect your mind to change, however.  You don't appear to be any different, or any more tolerant or understanding of people than the most rabid homophobe is of homosexuality.  Just that your target is different.




What an absolutely amazing and nonsensical rationalization.

"... no one has actually pointed out a passage, or any denomination's claim that the bible requires them to fear and hate homosexuals, or to be "homophobes", either."

No Firm, it just denounces homosexuality in the harshest and most prejudicial terms.

But of course that would not influence anyone to discriminate against gays.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 9:01:25 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Another poster feeling a tad defensive about his professed religion. Reread what I've wriiten more carefully. You will find that I simply arguied...

Well since you seem convinced that my post was referring to you, I accept your judgment. Who would know better?

However, I do have a quibble. Where have I professed Christianity as my religion? Now, you have given me occasion in the past to point out this annoying tendency of yours to assume that any idea which arises in that twisted imagination of yours must of necessity be the truth. But I would greatly appreciate it if you would at least make an effort to draw the line at posting outright lies when trying to justify the paranoid notions that afflict you.

K.

Shall I post all the many times you've defended christianity in a very personal manner? If it wasn't personal why do you spend so much time and effort writing in favor of it?:

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 9:03:41 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Where do I claim all christians are homophobes? Look back very carefully over my posts. Where do I make any claim about the beliefs of any or all christians in regards homsexuals?

You are simply putting words in my mouth to fulfill your beliefs about me. Confirmation bias perhaps?

So, you don't believe that Christianity encourages "homophobia"?

Who knew ... we are arguing the same side!

Actually I would argue that the Christian Bible provides amunition for both those who hate homosexuals and for those who support homosexuals. I reject your lies and No True Scotsman claims.

I feel sorry for you, DomKen.

I hope you get better and that everything turns out OK for you.

Firm


I do not need or want your sympathy. Personally I hope you grow up one day and realize how pathetic your passive agressive behavior is.

Although you could make some headway and apologize for simply making up lies about me.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 10:16:35 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

FR

I wonder if I'm the only gay person reading this thread and curious what other queer folk think of it.


Your posts are always welcome, dc.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to dcnovice)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/10/2010 10:29:32 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Shall I post all the many times you've defended christianity in a very personal manner? If it wasn't personal why do you spend so much time and effort writing in favor of it?:

Yeah, I've been wondering why he's so prone to hurling insults and ridicule.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 12:48:53 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Shall I post all the many times you've defended christianity in a very personal manner? If it wasn't personal why do you spend so much time and effort writing in favor of it?:

I have no interest in listening to an irrelevant catalog of all the pathological ways you jumped from one manufactured conclusion to another.

You announced to the world that Christianity was my professed religion. That was a lie. You made it up.

If there was a link to a post of mine wherein I had professed Christianity as my religion, you would be shoving it in my face. But there isn't.

You lied. You got caught. Live with it, bozo.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 10/11/2010 1:44:24 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 2:07:57 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Yeah, I've been wondering why he's so prone to hurling insults and ridicule.

Well really, I think it's a matter of perception. For example, I wouldn't think that calling a huckster a huckster was an insult. Or to take another case, calling some poor clown who was foolish enough to publish a claim about me that he couldn't possibly back-up a "bozo." Those seem to me fairly accurate characterizations, although I admit they are not flattering. Now, I do see how a huckster might feel hurt if he actually believed the con he was running, or the clown think himself misjudged if he felt that something he had read somewhere justified making claims that were provably untrue.

But to my thinking, at least, to assume such a thing in either of those cases would be an insult to the fellow's intelligence.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 3:49:08 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Just me but I believe homophobia has its roots not in religion but in survival of the race. Otherwise there was a time when a homosexual was a threat to small groups of people that depended on each other for survival.

Every member of this group was needed to produce offspring to further the group and increase their chances of survival. There was also less likelihood of more than one homosexual in a small group and this clash of sexualities caused tension that could also affect survival.

Over time the distain for this undesirable trait became part of our nature and naturally became part of our religions and we are still trying to overcome it.

This is complete nonsense. If every male on this planet was a homosexual, the females of our species would still get pregnant. In fact if there were no males at all except for one heterosexual, fertile male, thousands of females would still get pregnant.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 5:32:15 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed

~ FR ~

If it is religion(specifically Christianity) that is a/the cause of homophobia because of those passages rather than already prejudiced people picking verses and using them out of context to try to justify their discrimination, why aren't all of the other sorts of people mentioned in the verse(liars, adulterers, thieves, etc.) just as discriminated against?



First, explain how those verses are out of context. They seem pretty clear to me.  I'm not sure how you can interpret the Bible saying homosexuality is an abomination as anything but a condemnation of homosexuality.

Then explain to me how you can equate being a liar or a thief with being a homosexual.



(in reply to odysseyIndeed)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 5:51:03 AM   
odysseyIndeed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed

~ FR ~

If it is religion(specifically Christianity) that is a/the cause of homophobia because of those passages rather than already prejudiced people picking verses and using them out of context to try to justify their discrimination, why aren't all of the other sorts of people mentioned in the verse(liars, adulterers, thieves, etc.) just as discriminated against?



First, explain how those verses are out of context. They seem pretty clear to me.  I'm not sure how you can interpret the Bible saying homosexuality is an abomination as anything but a condemnation of homosexuality.
I asked why every other thing that is mentioned in the same verse as "participating in homosexuality", in the same list that it is placed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,  is not discriminated against if it is simply reading about it in the Bible that is the cause of people becoming prejudiced. You've not answered that.
Then explain to me how you can equate being a liar or a thief with being a homosexual.
I didn't equate them. I listed some of the other things mentioned in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.



(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 6:37:40 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: odysseyIndeed

I asked why every other thing that is mentioned in the same verse as "participating in homosexuality", in the same list that it is placed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10,  is not discriminated against if it is simply reading about it in the Bible that is the cause of people becoming prejudiced. You've not answered that



Because we consider lying socially unacceptable it is not discrimination against liars.

Because we consider theft a crime it is not discrimination against thieves.

So either you are arguing that liars and thieves should not be held accountable or you are arguing that homosexuality fits into the same category.




< Message edited by rulemylife -- 10/11/2010 6:39:19 AM >

(in reply to odysseyIndeed)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia - 10/11/2010 6:56:59 AM   
odysseyIndeed


Posts: 121
Joined: 9/30/2009
Status: offline 		If just reading about it in the Bible caused discrimination to occur, then everyone across the board who did any of the things listed in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 would be discriminated against. People who fornicated couldn't get married, people who have cheated couldn't get housing, people who drink would be victims of hate crimes.

I understand that there are people who do bad things and who are prejudiced and try to use Holy text to justify what they've done and what they believe. I believe those people are prejudiced anyway though and would have been even if they had never read a verse in the Holy text of their choice.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 100
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