Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (Full Version)

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peacefulplace -> Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:15:24 AM)

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/us/09religion.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

How responsible are religious leaders (of all stripes) for discrimination against (and, in some cases around the world, the execution of) homosexuals? If people did not have their selective reading of their religious texts behind them, how would they justify their prejudice against gays? Is a religious text, which is really only a collection of myths, proper justification for denying fundamental human rights to another?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:21:48 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/09/us/09religion.html?_r=1&ref=todayspaper

How responsible are religious leaders (of all stripes) for discrimination against (and, in some cases around the world, the execution of) homosexuals? If people did not have their selective reading of their religious texts behind them, how would they justify their prejudice against gays? Is a religious text, which is really only a collection of myths, proper justification for denying fundamental human rights to another?


Well, first, perhaps it is the fact that some people discriminate, and then find validation for it in a written text?

Second, your comment "Is a religious text, which is really only a collection of myths" exposes your own belief system, which, after all, is only a "collection of myths/assumptions/theories" as well.

Third, what is your theory about the origin of "human rights"?  Where do they come from?

Firm



rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:30:07 AM)

As I see it, the majority of homophobia results from religious beliefs.

The only thing thing I disagree with you on is that it results from selective reading of religious texts.

Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say.





peacefulplace -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:34:28 AM)

If someone finds comfort and a sense of morality in religious texts, then so be it. However, there is but the tiniest shred of proof that anything in those texts can be verified by factual evidence. There is also an amazing similarity among Christian texts to Greek myths; among Hindu texts to Christian ones, and so on. Therefore, it is all mythology. However, since one purpose of mythology is to teach morality, I have no problem with people gleaning the lessons of life they can from these texts.

For me, the origin of human rights does not come from anything other than common sense: All people deserve the right to free expression, freedom from fear from expressing that, and freedom to live their lives without being beaten and sodomized simply for being who they are.*

*Simplified version because I know many (including me) sometimes bypass the longer explanations.



rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:38:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


Well, first, perhaps it is the fact that some people discriminate, and then find validation for it in a written text?


So you are trying to say that the discrimination exists and people find reasons to justify it?

Meanwhile, you completely discount the idea that the reverse may be true.

More confirmation bias nonsense.

quote:


Second, your comment "Is a religious text, which is really only a collection of myths" exposes your own belief system, which, after all, is only a "collection of myths/assumptions/theories" as well.


I truly love this argument that not believing in something is really a belief system.

Talk about pretzel logic.

quote:


Third, what is your theory about the origin of "human rights"?  Where do they come from


Well, obviously they come from God.



peacefulplace -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:39:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

As I see it, the majority of homophobia results from religious beliefs.

The only thing thing I disagree with you on is that it results from selective reading of religious texts.

Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say.





Yes, there is supposed to be no denying what they say, but, as the NYTimes article pointed out, no mainstream religion in the U.S. uses that tired "children of Ham" story to justify slavery anymore, now, do they? It's a selective reading. Otherwise, you could also sell your daughter into slavery if you needed money, according to the Old Testament.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:44:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

Second, your comment "Is a religious text, which is really only a collection of myths" exposes your own belief system, which, after all, is only a "collection of myths/assumptions/theories" as well.


I truly love this argument that not believing in something is really a belief system.

Talk about pretzel logic.

As humans, we all have belief systems.  Otherwise, we could not function.


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

Third, what is your theory about the origin of "human rights"?  Where do they come from


Well, obviously they come from God.

Care to elaborate?

Seeing as you diss religion at every opportunity, I find it unlikely that this particular comment of yours is anything other than a sarcastic reply, with no intent to actually answer, only to belittle and insult.

Firm

efs



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:50:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

If someone finds comfort and a sense of morality in religious texts, then so be it. However, there is but the tiniest shred of proof that anything in those texts can be verified by factual evidence.

There is a great amount of historical evidence for many events in the Christian bible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

There is also an amazing similarity among Christian texts to Greek myths; among Hindu texts to Christian ones, and so on.

True.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

Therefore, it is all mythology.

This does not follow, logically.


quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

However, since one purpose of mythology is to teach morality, I have no problem with people gleaning the lessons of life they can from these texts.

For me, the origin of human rights does not come from anything other than common sense: All people deserve the right to free expression, freedom from fear from expressing that, and freedom to live their lives without being beaten and sodomized simply for being who they are.*

Ahhh!

"Common sense" is the basis of all morality?

What, exactly, is "common sense"?

Firm



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:51:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

As I see it, the majority of homophobia results from religious beliefs.

The only thing thing I disagree with you on is that it results from selective reading of religious texts.

Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say.





Perhaps reading the following might shed some light...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominational_positions_on_homosexuality

Slavery was once a "right" now its not even a thought... except among us kinksters.

Birth control was once against religion... now its not even given a second thought.

Its called "enlightenment". There are many things written about in the Bible and other religious texts that, now, have no place in society. Homosexuality is just another one.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:53:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say.

As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you.

I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals.

Firm



LadyPact -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:55:41 AM)

Posts like this tend to confuse Me.  Isn't choice of faith also supposed to be a fundamental human right?



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 10:58:23 AM)

Yes, it definitely is. I do not advocate telling anyone that they must chose a faith. I also do not support anyone who feels those few who have a louder voice speak for all people of faith.



rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:00:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

As I see it, the majority of homophobia results from religious beliefs.

The only thing thing I disagree with you on is that it results from selective reading of religious texts.

Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say.





Yes, there is supposed to be no denying what they say, but, as the NYTimes article pointed out, no mainstream religion in the U.S. uses that tired "children of Ham" story to justify slavery anymore, now, do they? It's a selective reading. Otherwise, you could also sell your daughter into slavery if you needed money, according to the Old Testament.


Yes, I see what you mean about selective reading but what I was referring to is the fundamentalists' literal interpretations, and there is nothing selective there.

You were talking about the broad picture and I was only talking about the specific issue.



kdsub -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:04:33 AM)

Just me but I believe homophobia has its roots not in religion but in survival of the race. Otherwise there was a time when a homosexual was a threat to small groups of people that depended on each other for survival.

Every member of this group was needed to produce offspring to further the group and increase their chances of survival. There was also less likelihood of more than one homosexual in a small group and this clash of sexualities caused tension that could also affect survival.

Over time the distain for this undesirable trait became part of our nature and naturally became part of our religions and we are still trying to overcome it.

Butch



FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:06:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, I see what you mean about selective reading but what I was referring to is the fundamentalists' literal interpretations, and there is nothing selective there.

You were talking about the broad picture and I was only talking about the specific issue.


Interesting comment.

Can you give me some examples of the "fundamentalist's literal interpretations" that you are thinking about?

Please, the exact biblical text, and the specific "fundamentalists" denomination you mean. Preferably with a link to their official website showing this "non-selective" interpretation.

Firm



rulemylife -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:11:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Those texts are pretty specific and there is no denying what they say.

As far as Christian sacred text, I'd have to disagree with you.

I've read the bible, and found nothing that condones "discrimination" against homosexuals.

Firm


No shit?

You're really going to make me do this?

It's pretty straightforward but I have no doubt you'll find some way to parse words and claim it really doesn't say what it says:


1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New International Version)

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

(1 Corinthians 6:9-10 - Passage Lookup)





FirmhandKY -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:15:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Just me but I believe homophobia has its roots not in religion but in survival of the race. Otherwise there was a time when a homosexual was a threat to small groups of people that depended on each other for survival.

Every member of this group was needed to produce offspring to further the group and increase their chances of survival. There was also less likelihood of more than one homosexual in a small group and this clash of sexualities caused tension that could also affect survival.

Over time the distain for this undesirable trait became part of our nature and naturally became part of our religions and we are still trying to overcome it.


Damn well thought out post, Butch.

I'll add to it, if you don't mind?

There is evidence that homosexuality is a result of the lack of the correct type and amount of hormones during the in utero growth of the brain.

This likely means that the price we paid for a larger, more complex brain was an occasional dysfunction when it came to the evolutionary purpose of sexual orientation.

In other words, the "other things" that the homo sapiens sapiens brain contributed to our survival and reproduction outweighed the occasional lapse in the hormonal wash that controlled sexual orientation.

Firm



peacefulplace -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:18:52 AM)

I am not interested in only the rights of homosexuals in the United States. In the ISLAMIC REPUBLIC of Iran, for example, you will be executed for being homosexual. Some crazy mullah has determined that this is to be so. Why is it okay for anyone to excute a homosexual in the name of god?



tazzygirl -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:18:52 AM)

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version) ~which is what most christian religions use~

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Note, it states nothing about homosexuality...

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (New American Standard Bible)

9Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.

now we get into the homosexuals.

another version

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (English Standard Version)

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous[a] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived:(A) neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Your source. The problem comes in with interpretation. Anything can be added, changed or inserted to "clarify" meaning. That doesnt make it accurate.



kdsub -> RE: Religion's Relationship to Homophobia (10/9/2010 11:20:53 AM)

Thanks Firm and common sense should tell us there has to be a reason besides choice in homosexuality.

Butch



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