quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Source

quote:

The redemption theory is an American conspiracy theory created by Roger Elvick and marketed as a tax evasion and fraud scheme. The theory claims that when the United States government abandoned the gold standard in 1933, it pledged its citizens as collateral so it could borrow money. According to Elvick, the government creates a fictitious person (straw man) corresponding to each newborn citizen with bank accounts initially holding $630,000. The theory further holds that through obscure procedures under the Uniform Commercial Code, a citizen can "reclaim" the straw man and write checks against its accounts.[1] Its adherents sometimes call themselves "Sovereign Citizens". source

quote:

The Posse Comitatus (from the Latin phrase meaning "force of the county") is a loosely organized far right social movement that opposes the United States federal government and believes in localism. There is no single national group, and local units are autonomous. source

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

There is at least one poster on these forums that will say it is not. He is not alone, it is estimated that the movement in question has about 300,000 followers.

Now to the fun stuff...

However, since the Constitution replaced the Articles of Confederation (source,) and was adopted by all the states, the United States Government has been the legitimate government of the nation, regardless of what some people might want you to believe.

Did the people or the People vote on it? 

Who voted on it again? 

First, there was a clear cut statement of purpose in the Constitution:

quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Source

A few points that were highlighted from the source are:

Domestic Tranquility
One of the concerns of the Framers was that the government prior to that under the Constitution was unable, by force or persuasion, to quell rebellion or quarrels amongst the states. The government watched in horror as Shay's Rebellion transpired just before the Convention, and some states had very nearly gone to war with each other over territory (such as between Pennsylvania and Connecticut over Wilkes-Barre). One of the main goals of the Convention, then, was to ensure the federal government had powers to squash rebellion and to smooth tensions between E-states.

Welfare
welfare n. 1. health, happiness, or prosperity; well-being.

I am sure for the sake of accuracy you pulled these definitions out of websters 1828, shrouds, or any other vintage dictionary of the times to INSURE that the definitions are correctly presented?  you did that right? 

Welfare in today's context also means organized efforts on the part of public or private organizations to benefit the poor, or simply public assistance. This is not the meaning of the word as used in the Constitution.

There is a movement in the United States today, collectively known as the Sovereign Citizen movement. It is founded in the Redemption theory and Posse Comitatus Movement of the 1970's.

Theres that citizen thing again LOL  You cant seem to get it through your head that a sovereign citizen is the same thing as saying a free slave.

quote:

The redemption theory is an American conspiracy theory created by Roger Elvick and marketed as a tax evasion and fraud scheme. The theory claims that when the United States government abandoned the gold standard in 1933, it pledged its citizens as collateral so it could borrow money. According to Elvick, the government creates a fictitious person (straw man) corresponding to each newborn citizen with bank accounts initially holding $630,000. The theory further holds that through obscure procedures under the Uniform Commercial Code, a citizen can "reclaim" the straw man and write checks against its accounts.[1] Its adherents sometimes call themselves "Sovereign Citizens". source

Yeh there is a supreme court case and hjr 192 and pub law 73 somehting and title 31 something and title 50 comes into it and so forth and so on.

quote:

The Posse Comitatus (from the Latin phrase meaning "force of the county") is a loosely organized far right social movement that opposes the United States federal government and believes in localism. There is no single national group, and local units are autonomous. source

Well that sounds like the family as the first form of government under God and the next tier would be the county if you want to go according to english establishments of boundary system of territory granted to a count.

I think it would be an interesting debate, considering that the tea party is also saying that some government agencies have overstepped the authority of the Federal Government, these agencies being the EPA, Department of Education, OSHA, to name three of the top runners.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



Legitimate in what respect exactly?

Have you ever read and performed any sort of comparative analysis between the "United States of America", the "United States" and the "East-India Company"?

If you havent you all should.  I think you will find it lets say enlightening.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

a constitutor does not mean one who creates a constitution, and blacks law does not intimate it does in any way shape or form.


look up idiot (and imbicile) in blacks law. thats what you are.  (it will say something in there along the lines of 'one who does not understand the law and is ever unlikely to')

they were considering your legal acumen when the penned it 0.

quote:

16th Amendment Amendment XVI

The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

a constitutor does not mean one who creates a constitution, and blacks law does not intimate it does in any way shape or form.


look up idiot (and imbicile) in blacks law. thats what you are.  (it will say something in there along the lines of 'one who does not understand the law and is ever unlikely to')

they were considering your legal acumen when the penned it 0.

quote:

Constitution legal definition:

The fundamental law, written or unwritten, that establishes the character of a government by defining the basic principles to which a society must conform; by describing the organization of the government and regulation, distribution, and limitations on the functions of different government departments; and by prescribing the extent and manner of the exercise of its sovereign powers.

A legislative charter by which a government or group derives its authority to act.

The concept of a constitution dates to the city-states of ancient Greece. The philosopher Aristotle (384–322 b.c.), in his work Politics, analyzed over 150 Greek constitutions. He described a constitution as creating the frame upon which the government and laws of a society are built:

quote:

A constitution may be defined as an organization of offices in a state, by which the method of their distribution is fixed, the sovereign authority is determined, and the nature of the end to be pursued by the association and all its members is prescribed. Laws, as distinct from the frame of the constitution, are the rules by which the magistrates should exercise their powers, and should watch and check transgressors.

source

quote:

Sovereign Citizen Movement
Origins: Çirca 1970; fully developed by early 1980s
Ideology: Anti-government, some white supremacist elements
Outreach: Vigilante courts, seminars, shortwave radio, the Internet, "schools of common law"
Notable Episodes: 1996 Montana Freeman standoff; 1997 Republic of Texas standoff Tactics "Paper terrorism," including frivolous lawsuits, frivolous liens, fictitious financial instruments, fictitious automobile-related documents, and misuse of genuine documents such as IRS forms; various frauds and scams. source

quote:

Today, we look at a third threat—the “sovereign citizen” extremist movement. Sovereign citizens are anti-government extremists who believe that even though they physically reside in this country, they are separate or “sovereign” from the United States. As a result, they believe they don’t have to answer to any government authority, including courts, taxing entities, motor vehicle departments, or law enforcement.

This causes all kinds of problems—and crimes. For example, many sovereign citizens don’t pay their taxes. They hold illegal courts that issue warrants for judges and police officers. They clog up the court system with frivolous lawsuits and liens against public officials to harass them. And they use fake money orders, personal checks, and the like at government agencies, banks, and businesses.

That’s just the beginning. Not every action taken in the name of the sovereign citizen ideology is a crime, but the list of illegal actions committed by these groups, cells, and individuals is extensive (and puts them squarely on our radar). In addition to the above, sovereign citizens:

*
Commit murder and physical assault;
*
Threaten judges, law enforcement professionals, and government personnel;
*
Impersonate police officers and diplomats;
*
Use fake currency, passports, license plates, and driver’s licenses; and
*
* Engineer various white-collar scams, including mortgage fraud and so-called "redemption” schemes.

Source

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

When you consider how much money big business is paying in the current election, it would seem that it is about to be bought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I understood what he said perfectly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

There are a few arguments concerning the United States Government, there is the government is too big argument (I tend to agree, since there are multiple agencies responsible for the same general things.)

There is the US government is not big enough, which I disagree with.

There is the argument proposed by a few that the US Government is actually being controlled by outside groups. (One member of these forums insists we are actually under the control of the British royal family) and the NWO is in charge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Otter, considering I have realone on ignore, I was actually hoping that others would enter the debate. I have seen his rantings so often it is not funny.

More like your mouth writes checks your ass cant cash....

The fact he has declared to follow a movement that has gotten the following statements from two different sources that say the same thing.

No such declaration was made!

Of course fortunately for you, you have me on ignore so you dont have to produce any of those checks your ass cant cash!  LMAO

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Real, you have one major problem, your whole fucking movement it flawed.

Movement?  I do research and its not my problem you cannot accept what you see as a result of that research.

Now you can make any claim that you want about history but the bottom line is that you and they simply cannot change enough of it to hide.  Its a smoke and mirrors game and a matter of what you can be suckered into believing as you will very soon find out.

Start by debating the constitutor does anything but create a constitution!

At no time in this country's history was the county government stronger than the federal.

Even before it existed? 

Listen to what you are saying.  ALL government starts with family the smallest governmental unit then the people on your block and then county then state then league of states and so forth and so on.

You do not start with the league of states first to create the family unit.

You ignore the fact that the framers (English Esquires) of the Constitution set up the government,  (business bankruptcy trust) it was ratified by the states (produce the voting records of the people) and that created the Republic in which we now live.

Wrong---we....meaning you live in the democracy.  You do not know what the republic is nor how it can or is supposed to operate.  If you do by all means explain how a republic as designed here is supposed to operate.

produce the voting records of ANY constitutional amendment that the people voted on------Oh you cant?  You mean you cannot produce any of them what so ever?  NOT ONE voting record?  How about for the states? states neither?

You know how it is cant produce the record the record does not exist and when the record does not exist neither does your position.

The government is legitimate, always has been legitimate and will remain the legitimate government until such time as it is either overthrown or the entire country is wiped out. Nothing you can do will change that.

So you stand on your soapbox and claim the government is legitimate because they have not been over thrown as if legitimacy is a function of who has the biggest guns OR is capable of remaining in power.

There are countries in which there is no strong central government, Somalia is a fucking good example.

Obviously they have a dis-functional court system. Countries do not need government at all for the sake peaceful civilians, courts and militias can take of that just ducky.  Only need governments for interface regarding international affairs and to wage war.

Now I will put you back on ignore and forget about your stupid bullshit.