RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme?

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DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 7:49:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 I don't care about should; I care about results. That makes sense, Red, but if I read Elan, DMF and Nick correctly, then it isn't a result if you feel like you're throwing away too big a portion of your soul in order to get it. That'll vary a lot from one man to another. Ah, values dissonance. The curse of culture. The problem is that we're using simple words for a very complicated subject. Attraction is not easy, by design. And our heads get filled with wrong rights and right wrongs practically from the moment we find out that some people don't have wangs. Ultimately, do whatever you like. If it works. If it doesn't, try something else, until... you die. That's pretty much the only endgame that matters.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 7:55:37 PM)
Peon, actually I despise toadies and sycophants, that's why I DIDN'T say so. (loving the sarcasm, though! subtly played!) Toadyism, that false fawning that so many men dump on femdoms, is one of the many reasons most submissive men ick me out. Eeeeh. When I was in college the first time, there was this guy who was always fawning, complimenting, kissing my hand... and I was always beautiful, no matter how horrid I looked or felt. Well, I was a lovely young thing, but really? After tromping across campus in foot deep snow, alternately sweating and freezing, with major hat hair? Offer to brush my hair for me, do NOT tell me how great I look. He was sincere, though, I will give him that. Genuinely a kind hearted person. If I were domineering, rather than dominant, he would have been perfect! I would be a divorcee with two children and an escalade... ah, might-have-beens! [:D] I can honestly see how a certain sort of woman would totally swoon for DMF. He's the sort of man that I would have nothing to do with, but that's cool. [;)] Not saying that he's the bad seed or anything, just that men who do that hot/cold/maybe/maybenot routine seem untrustworthy to me. They might be good for hot excitement, but would it be worth the mindfuck? To ME, hell no! But he's not gunning for my type, anyway!

naughtynick81 -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 8:55:01 PM)
LadyNTrainer quote: It's also interesting that you're not supposed to eat potatoes with your hands, but you can eat corn on the cob with your hands. It's not entirely a practical thing either; in many cultures grains like rice and other mashed root vegetables like poi are eaten with the fingers, and it can be done quite neatly. There are generally a long list of arbitrary social constructs in most cultures, some of which make sense and some of which don't. They can often be tracked back to historical customs which may or may not be currently applicable. What they all have in common is that they are accepted or expected social contracts that everyone is expected to live up to by default, unless special circumstances are negotiated. It is considered "ill mannered" if you fail to live up to a given culture's default social contracts, which may include things like "a man asks for and pays for dates with a woman" or "grains and mashed root vegetables are never touched with the fingers, only with these specific utensils". Special circumstances can be invoked that change the default, like Sadie Hawkins events, going Dutch, or ethnic food such as sushi where rice is picked up by hand and eaten. But in the absence of special circumstances or pre-negotiation, it is generally a surprise if someone does not abide by the default social rules. EVERY culture's manners and arbitrary customs are, for the most part, irrational. But failing to recognize that people will be upset if you neither adhere to the social default nor warn them in advance that you are not doing so is equally irrational. I don't really know what you are trying to get at in that post. But anyway, the way I see it, if you expect or think people are obligated to give you shit for free, I find that ill mannered in my books. Men don’t owe women anything, just like women always aggressively claim that women don’t owe men anything. I find that perfectly fair.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 9:09:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Sorry, bu I do believe that in a certain environment you behave according to your environment, so bad table manners and chewing with an open mouth or speaking while your mouth is full with food is not a monkey's dance for me but simply appalling bad manners, there is no rational or practical value to behave disgusting and force your disgusting behavior on others. As I mentioned, I carefully follow every culture's weird taboos when I am inside that culture. I simply don't regard American table manners or dating etiquette or any other social custom as being inherently more correct or valuable than, say, ancient Hawaiian ritual taboos about footwear. They're something I have to do to avoid upsetting the people who are entrenched in that culture. Your definition of "disgusting" manners is defined by your culture; it is not universal, nor is it any sort of objective truth. quote: I grew up with "My freedom ends where I infringe the freedom of another person" Let's suppose I am quietly eating mashed potatoes with my fingers at my own table in a restaurant, from my own plate, using a three-finger scoop method that is approved of by other cultures around the world for taking soft food. In what way is this infringing on any other person's freedom? I can think of several countries in which it would be the norm, and the American eating with a fork is the one who is likely to be stared at for their lack of civilized manners. What is the dynamic here, other than a cultural group expecting irrational conformity in personal habits as a show of "respect"? I'll reiterate that I don't do this. I put on a nearly perfect act of table manners and human civilization when I am dining in public, and as a consequence I rarely eat much or particularly enjoy the food. Acting is a tiresome job, and so is catering to other people's weird taboos and fetishes. What annoys me most is that most people won't admit that their own idea of "good manners" is no different and no more objectively correct than any primitive society's list of taboos.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 9:18:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DMFParadox fucking with women gets their attention. Teasing them. Saying something nice, then qualifying it, that gets attention. If you do compliment a woman you don't already know, you have to somehow make them doubt your sincerity. Overplay your hand. Make them think you're not really interested. Turn it into a joke - not a mean one, but just one that's friendly and gives you an out. Makes you unattainable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are advocating that intimate relationships should be based not on honesty, clear communication and personal transparency, but on deception and game playing? I have no idea what world you live in, but it's not one I'd even want to visit. I value my personal integrity too much to engage in deception or manipulation, especially in personal relationships. People who lack that basic integrity are not worth my time and energy. Or anyone else's, IMO.

naughtynick81 -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 10:08:34 PM)
Wouldn't it be nice if the same code of "manners" applied equally to both genders when it came to dating or a man and woman simply meeting up. There would be far less drama. I hate double standards

DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 10:15:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer quote: ORIGINAL: DMFParadox fucking with women gets their attention. Teasing them. Saying something nice, then qualifying it, that gets attention. If you do compliment a woman you don't already know, you have to somehow make them doubt your sincerity. Overplay your hand. Make them think you're not really interested. Turn it into a joke - not a mean one, but just one that's friendly and gives you an out. Makes you unattainable. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you are advocating that intimate relationships should be based not on honesty, clear communication and personal transparency, but on deception and game playing? I have no idea what world you live in, but it's not one I'd even want to visit. I value my personal integrity too much to engage in deception or manipulation, especially in personal relationships. People who lack that basic integrity are not worth my time and energy. Or anyone else's, IMO. Sadly, I am suggesting exactly this. 'Integrity' is a value much like every other: it is in large part dictated by the surrounding culture. Some cultures would state you violate your honor by not killing someone who insulted you; others, by having any kind of sex with someone outside of wedlock. Women have been stoned for less. So have men. But the fundamental traits that encourage survival and fecundity don't change as quickly; and one of them -- you'll hate this -- is to be a good liar. Convincing people that the right hand is empty and they shouldn't bother looking at the left one successfully is a huge advantage in a lot of situations. So guess what? Women select for it. Now ask yourself: what kind of test would suffice to see if a man is a successful and skilled liar? Once you get over that one - if you get over it - I have another suggestion. Somehow, men must balance both being good, reliable providers on the one hand (better for kids), good liars and manipulators on the other hand (better traits to have in kids), and be both faithful enough to a woman so that her children have less competition (better for kids), while also being the kind of man that would successfully attract many women should he be given the chance (Better trait for male children; genetically speaking, a philandering son with good fertility is a jackpot.) Let's say that you're designing a woman that can test for all of these traits, time and time again. You win only if she produces more grandchildren (not children, grandchildren; it takes two generations to measure the results) than the woman next to her. How would you do it? It's no wonder most women are off their rockers. They have to deal with men. :-/

DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 10:36:11 PM)
I should add, most of this is only relevant in the initial stages of attraction. 'Integrity' is essential with someone you're sharing the bills with. And it's nice to not hate the person you're with, so good communication skills can be helpful. But if you don't get past attraction, then none of that really matters, does it? And come to think of it, how often do you hear stories of women bored with hardworking, steady husbands... these stereotypes exist for a reason. God, I can't TELL you how many times I've been hit on by wives and girlfriends, and I hate it with a passion unrestrained. Women that you'd never think would be the cheating type; with kids, without kids, just married a fucking WEEK ago, married for 6 years... Jesus. I can't help but think Women, you have a fucking GOOD MAN and he was probably a friend of mine, what the FUCK are you THINKING?? Every time it happens my opinion of the distaff lowers that much more. Only in understanding some of the root causes for this have I found a measure of acceptance.

WyldHrt -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 10:42:27 PM)
quote: But you can't stand on one emotion too long. Push, then pull; laugh, then get distracted and wander off; wander back, ask something deep, then forget and caveman the girl. Raise a topic, then drop the thread in the middle and start another. The idea is to have so many unanswered questions about you that the girl's brain fries thinking about it. Then get more friendly, but start pulling away if she shit-tests you. Which she will, more often than not. But since her brain is fried, she'll generally make some motion or gesture immediately retracting once you show you're not to be trifled with. At that point, she's just proven she wants you around, and it's game over. Get the number, get the invite, go wherever you want with it. This approach probably would have worked on me... when I was 20 or so. After years of meeting guys who use this 'surefire' technique, I spot the game playing straight off and just walk away. The man who currently holds my interest, and has for quite some time, broke every 'rule' that has been posted here. While we flirted in the beginning (and still do, every chance we get), he made it clear from the get go that he was interested in me, and said right off that I could always talk to him about anything. Devious man that he is, he has gotten into my head a way few in my life ever have by listening and caring. He has always been my friend and has seen me through a ton of crap. He is mannerly and has no problem courting a lady that interests him. He's my friend, I love him.... and just hearing his voice gets me hot, to boot. [:D]

naughtynick81 -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:06:39 PM)
Women playing "hard to get" is basically the norm or else they may think of themselves as someone cheap or too easy. This feeling women have get's exaggerated some or most of the time and it ends up with them putting themselves on this farting pedestal that’s not justifiable to what they have to offer.

DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:10:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: But you can't stand on one emotion too long. Push, then pull; laugh, then get distracted and wander off; wander back, ask something deep, then forget and caveman the girl. Raise a topic, then drop the thread in the middle and start another. The idea is to have so many unanswered questions about you that the girl's brain fries thinking about it. Then get more friendly, but start pulling away if she shit-tests you. Which she will, more often than not. But since her brain is fried, she'll generally make some motion or gesture immediately retracting once you show you're not to be trifled with. At that point, she's just proven she wants you around, and it's game over. Get the number, get the invite, go wherever you want with it. This approach probably would have worked on me... when I was 20 or so. After years of meeting guys who use this 'surefire' technique, I spot the game playing straight off and just walk away. The man who currently holds my interest, and has for quite some time, broke every 'rule' that has been posted here. While we flirted in the beginning (and still do, every chance we get), he made it clear from the get go that he was interested in me, and said right off that I could always talk to him about anything. Devious man that he is, he has gotten into my head a way few in my life ever have by listening and caring. He has always been my friend and has seen me through a ton of crap. He is mannerly and has no problem courting a lady that interests him. He's my friend, I love him.... and just hearing his voice gets me hot, to boot. [:D] Nothing's surefire; sometimes a headache really is a headache. Sometimes, though less often than I'm comfortable with, a marriage vow means something. Sigh... the biggest problem with raising this point in a forum full of women is one that I can't really point out successfully, but I'll try anyway. When this is done right, you don't notice it. It feels natural. Like you've known the guy your whole life. You don't notice that he's deliberately withholding attention, because it feels right. He's not supposed to notice you yet. You don't notice that he just met the crowd of people around him and asked them something inane; you just notice, those people are looking at him like someone important. You notice all the attention he gives your friend as he answers her questions and lightly teases her, and want some of that attention for yourself. When he looks at you and gives you his full attention, it feels like a train hit you, because of all the questions that have been building up in the back of your mind about this guy. If you're insecure and only moderately attractive, then he'll give a compliment that makes you feel like the most important girl in the room... but only after you want one. If you're already aware that you're one of the best looking women in town, then he'll tease you about being like his sister, and you couldn't possibly be date material because you're too wierd. Ok, cool, this guy isn't like all the others hounding you; you can relax and chat with him for a while. It's fun; the threat of 'LIKE ME PLEASE' has been taken off the table. Conversation is more fun and natural. And you will never notice it. If you do, your brain will wipe the thought away if he meets a minimum threshold, you won't even remember shit-testing him about it. One time I asked a girl a few days later if she still thought I was a player because I was too smooth, and she never even remembered thinking that. Sometimes men accidentally fall into the correct pattern with a woman, and scratch their heads trying to figure out how lucky they were. Sometimes they know exactly how premeditated their actions were, but the woman in question simply will not believe it was planned this way. I've done it, taken video and fucking gone line by line as to what I said, why, and the girl's reaction and how I knew what she was thinking, after a complete success, and she simply did not believe it happened the way I said it did. She argued about what she was thinking, she even edited what happened in a discussion afterwords to defend her point until I showed her the damned video again. Fucking waste of time. So... whatever. Women will be what they are. Maybe one day I'll meet one without blinders that isn't past menopause (Old ladies often know the score, but I don't really want to date them), but I'm doubting it more and more the longer I live.

naughtynick81 -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:23:41 PM)
To this point quote: Ok, cool, this guy isn't like all the others hounding you I am not mocking anything you said DMF, but there is a double standard here. What I am wanting to express really has nothing to do with you. Anyway... Say if a man thought most women in general or most women who had interest in him were guilty until proven otherwise for any type of evil. He would be a social outcast for such a attitude. But it seems to be a social norm for women to think negative about most men until proven otherwise. The difference is that its sexism going one way but not sexism going the other direction in a political correct view.

GreedyTop -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:26:54 PM)
quote: Say if a man thought most women in general or most women who had interest in him were guilty until proven otherwise for any type of evil. Like you, ya mean?

naughtynick81 -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:31:43 PM)
Yep, and proud of it as it's acceptable when it's going in the other direction. So why should I be a problem when you are not willing to have a problem or call out on any woman with the same thought process?

WyldHrt -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:38:36 PM)
quote: Sigh... the biggest problem with raising this point in a forum full of women is one that I can't really point out successfully, but I'll try anyway. When this is done right, you don't notice it. It feels natural. Like you've known the guy your whole life. You don't notice that he's deliberately withholding attention, because it feels right. He's not supposed to notice you yet. Yadda yadda Sorry, swing and a miss. I find it rather amusing that you think there is some universal pattern to relationships between people, and seem to assume that all women are cookie cutouts that biologically react the same way to 'the approach'. The fact that you assume all women can be had with some variation of 'the approach' just makes me ill, as some of us have no interest in playing games. It is also revealing that you refer to women as 'girls' when discussing such techniques.

DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:39:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: naughtynick81 To this point quote: Ok, cool, this guy isn't like all the others hounding you I am not mocking anything you said DMF, but there is a double standard here. What I am wanting to express really has nothing to do with you. Anyway... Say if a man thought most women in general or most women who had interest in him were guilty until proven otherwise for any type of evil. He would be a social outcast for such a attitude. But it seems to be a social norm for women to think negative about most men until proven otherwise. The difference is that its sexism going one way but not sexism going the other direction in a political correct view. Totally a double standard. I like it less than you do, probably. But it's not my double standard, and once understood it's useful; so I use it. And yes, I totally agree with the assessment of women's view on men. There's a recent statistic to back this up, courtesy of OkCupid - http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/your-looks-and-online-dating/ That regards how women view male attractiveness. Basically, they have retardedly high standards for attraction, but ignore their own standards anyway... Those same standards apply towards 'correct' male behavior. And they ignore those standards too. In fact, almost across the board there's a huge dissonance between women's stated preferences, and what they actually act upon. Leaving men to assume that none of us are good for them, and they only deal with us out of lack of a better choice; both in the general sense and in specific descriptions of past relationships... current relationships get better treatment. Women aren't quite that hypocritical. Yet. Though it's trending that way; Divorce statistics are at an all-time high... This - that women view most men as unattractive - is not actually the case. It's mostly an issue of bad marketing on the part of men. But when called to form an opinion, it's almost universally the one that American women state as true. Foreign women hate their men less. There's a study on that too, ironically in the CIA factbook. I looked for it but couldn't find it, so I might have been inhaling something, but I'm sure if you dig hard enough you'll find an equivalent statistic. Probably because outside our borders, men are not as pussywhipped and frightened of pissing women off. But that's my opinion, I have no statistics to back that last statement up.

DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:42:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: WyldHrt quote: Sigh... the biggest problem with raising this point in a forum full of women is one that I can't really point out successfully, but I'll try anyway. When this is done right, you don't notice it. It feels natural. Like you've known the guy your whole life. You don't notice that he's deliberately withholding attention, because it feels right. He's not supposed to notice you yet. Yadda yadda Sorry, swing and a miss. I find it rather amusing that you think there is some universal pattern to relationships between people, and seem to assume that all women are cookie cutouts that biologically react the same way to 'the approach'. The fact that you assume all women can be had with some variation of 'the approach' just makes me ill, as some of us have no interest in playing games. It is also revealing that you refer to women as 'girls' when discussing such techniques. Psssh. It's revealing that girls has less letters than women. I knew it'd be a miss, for you. I'm putting it out there for people who are stuck on approaching women and constantly failing. Your opinion hardly matters, though you make a good foil to raise certain points.

GreedyTop -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:45:31 PM)
why do you thinnk her opinion doesn't matter? it is reflected among many women.

WyldHrt -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:52:15 PM)
quote: Psssh. It's revealing that girls has less letters than women. LOL, ok. I think others might have a different opinion of your wording. quote: I knew it'd be a miss, for you. I'm putting it out there for people who are stuck on approaching women and constantly failing. Your opinion hardly matters, though you make a good foil to raise certain points. Way to attempt to marginalize my real life experience and opinion. At least you admitted it.

DMFParadox -> RE: What do it takes to become a pro domme? (10/25/2010 11:56:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop why do you thinnk her opinion doesn't matter? it is reflected among many women. Because: a) stated preferences and actual behavior of women are two very different things, on the average; b) I know from personal experience that a majority of the women I've seduced simply do not connect the dots on their own behavior during the initial stages of attraction. They misdirect their actions in their own minds at practically every turn, for at least the first 2-3 hours of initial contact. After that, their memories seem to re-engage, but during? Jesus, it's like half the human race has Alzheimer's. Or is on some really good drugs. I'm not talking about stupid women or druggies; I'm taking about passionate, educated women with careers and dreams, turn into fucking zombies during that first bit of meeting. High-level-functioning zombies, but seriously, it's just something I can't wrap my head around. How do you not remember acting this way??? Then there's the rest of female-kind; the girlfriends and wives rant I was on earlier. I've never been married, and I've never had a girlfriend cheat on me that I'm aware of. I have had more than a couple score married or otherwise committed women make sincere passes at me, sometimes lying about their status but usually telling me straight up, as if I'd be ok with it. Talk about a double standard, try that one... the same women who'd be outraged at a man cheating. Anyway. Probably didn't answer your question, but I'm burnt out for now. G'night.

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