RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage

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HypnoPants -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 1:45:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: strangedesire You do realize that practicing therapists have a lot more schooling than you, and generally go through residencies where they work under the supervision of others, right? Working effectively as a therapist takes a lot more than the basic university psychology classes and some research on "how to talk to people with depression." Even when I worked as a counselor, we did a lot of work on ethics, a lot of work on setting professional boundaries, and received huge amounts of supervision as we learned to effectively communicate in a therapeutic way. BTW, a Psychologist is someone with a PhD and some professional licensing besides. I strongly suggest that you take that word out of your profile before you get yourself in legal trouble. ... ugh, thank you for enlighteningly useless off-topic trolling.

MistressA25 -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 1:58:10 PM)
I agree with LadyPact on this issue. If you receive the punishment and turn around and get a reward because the Master is feeling bad about giving the punishment then in turn she would expect that same reward each and every time. You might as well have given her the reward in the first place instead of the punishment.

LadyPact -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 2:21:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoPants You misunderstood her, she was talking about people going off on every other topic other than the very first post in the topic. No, I don't believe I did. From what she wrote, it was easy to see that the incorrect communication was clearly yours to begin with, along with adding information to the topic that may or may not have been relevant, which she chose to take out on others. In doing so, she decided to label a group of people as trolls. The very people who were trying to help (and some that I happen to respect a great deal from their prior participation on these boards) with your question in the first place. In the future, the two of you might benefit from a discussion on what is and is not acceptable between the two of you when it comes to posting issues about your dynamic on the boards. If you don't want the surrounding circumstances (such as mental health) to be discussed, it may be in your best interest not to bring them into the topic in the first place. On female Dominants understanding the way women think, that's a yes and no thing. We are women, but most of us don't have the same mindset as a submissive. Some of the folks who replied on this thread are in dynamics with female submissives, which may make them more qualified than someone like Me who has never added a female to her household. What you had here wasn't anything that related to a gender issue and My answers on this thread wouldn't have changed if I owned a girl instead of a boy.

VaguelyCurious -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 2:29:06 PM)
FR OP, if you go on a forum and find that you consider a majority of the regular posters on a given thread to be trolls, it may not be the forum for you. Not all forums are for everyone-no shame in that. But if you accuse every single person who disagrees with you or says something you don't want to hear of being a troll then you come across as a troll yourself.

tiggerspoohbear -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 2:33:26 PM)
Thank you LadyP and VC for being so much more polite than I would have been at the continued and misconstrued use of the word "troll" by the OP and his sub. [:)]

MistressA25 -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 2:42:47 PM)
yeah because I would have been much uglier than that

BonesFromAsh -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 5:26:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoPants ah, I figured being a question of training... I'd ask a mistress, being as they'd understand a question of training and of the female psyche, dominant or submissive, they'd still know the female psyche better than I. Again, you use double-talk. You asked a question concerning punishment. You then proceeded to give background as to the reason for the punishment. None of this involved the "female psyche". You failed to see that you yourself forgot the basis of the question which, as you say, was concerning punishment. As for "trolls" and trolling... What is a troll?.... quote: The term derives from "trolling", a style of fishing which involves trailing bait through a likely spot hoping for a bite. The troll posts a message, often in response to an honest question, that is intended to upset, disrupt or simply insult the group. Usually, it will fail, as the troll rarely bothers to match the tone or style of the group, and usually its ignorance shows. My original response, found in post #18 was given in regards to the inconsistencies found in statements you made and a suggestion to seek real professional help for your partner. You chose to share information that added to the bigger picture, which I addressed in subsequent posts. I was only working with what you provided. While there have been folks who have chosen to reply to your original question, excluding the information given concerning your partner's issues, others, myself included, felt the extra information contributed to the bigger picture that went beyond "harsh punishment" and whether or not massaging afterwards was acceptable. Again...I'm only working with what you provided. That being said, my advice in regards to your question of punishment..... Inconsistency is ineffective...regardless of whether you're training a child, an employee, a dog or a submissive partner.

DarkSteven -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 6:41:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious FR OP, if you go on a forum and find that you consider a majority of the regular posters on a given thread to be trolls, it may not be the forum for you. Not all forums are for everyone-no shame in that. But if you accuse every single person who disagrees with you or says something you don't want to hear of being a troll then you come across as a troll yourself. I prefer to call people who disagree with me "fakes". It shows more class.

hausboy -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 6:44:42 PM)
Fair enough... I decided to turn to my favorite text: "The Guide to the Correction of Young Gentlemen" (written in 1924) Now I know you're not a female Domme with a male pupil....but I typed this selection because I thought it had some relevance, particularly in reference to the "after" following a spanking. Maybe it helps--maybe not. always a good read ;-) p. 57 "AFTER A SPANKING" "Once the punishment has been administered, what then takes place should depend on several factors. Firstly, does this end the punishment in toto? With a spanking such is the general rule: in whic case--and assuming the culprit is now in the emotional condition to which you intended to reduce him--you may forgive him. "Slip him off your knees (or release him from whatever position you have placed him), stand him in front of you--still with his trousers, &c, fully lowered--and tell him, in a kindly fashion, that what has just happened was for his own good. Tell him to pull up his trousers--if your mood has been softened by administering the punishment you may do this for him, if you wish--and button up. Then you may kiss him and dismiss him, or (particularly if he is a state of distress) order him to bed for an hour or two to recover. If the spanking has not concluded the overall punishment, then it must be followed by the next stage: writing lines, or a letter of apology, for example, or standing in the corner with the punished zone well displayed. "You may remit a planned extension of an overall penalty if the spanking has had a greater effect than you anticipated--there is always room for mercy--but on no account if you have already verbally committed yourself to it. Mercy is one thing, vacillation another."

littlewonder -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 6:54:24 PM)
I keep reading how you can't see a doc for your depression. I really really don't understand this. Why not? I mean no matter how poor you are you can still see someone other than your Dom but an actual professional. There are docs with sliding scale fees and even some who will see you for free or at least payment plans. I've been dirt broke without even a penny to spare and I've been able to see someone for my depression. If it's because you say you don't have time..make time or die. It's that simple when it comes to your health. Your Dom is not a professional even if he claims to be majoring in it. He'll always have a bias in which he really can't help you.

January -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 6:55:06 PM)
quote: Anyways, I write down anything she does during a depressive attack that may have hurt me physically or mentally... so that we can discuss it at a later date, or to punish her for, etc. Punishments are done ONLY when she's stable enough to handle them. HYPNO. You have got to be kidding! You have no clue what you are doing. You can never, ever train anyone by this technique. It is ineffective and petty. If she's so bad off that you cannot react immediately and calmly, DON'T ever punish her later for it. No wonder this poor girl is depressed. And yes, her depression, or hostility or violent outbursts, or whatever issues she has, has everything to do with the responses you will get. Whether you like it or not. January

angelikaJ -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 7:09:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder I keep reading how you can't see a doc for your depression. I really really don't understand this. Why not? I mean no matter how poor you are you can still see someone other than your Dom but an actual professional. There are docs with sliding scale fees and even some who will see you for free or at least payment plans. I've been dirt broke without even a penny to spare and I've been able to see someone for my depression. If it's because you say you don't have time..make time or die. It's that simple when it comes to your health. Your Dom is not a professional even if he claims to be majoring in it. He'll always have a bias in which he really can't help you. To be fair to her, we know nothing at all about the OP's current living situation. She lives in a place where cost shouldn't be an issue but other things may be getting in the way.

angelikaJ -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 7:14:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: January quote: Anyways, I write down anything she does during a depressive attack that may have hurt me physically or mentally... so that we can discuss it at a later date, or to punish her for, etc. Punishments are done ONLY when she's stable enough to handle them. HYPNO. You have got to be kidding! You have no clue what you are doing. You can never, ever train anyone by this technique. It is ineffective and petty. If she's so bad off that you cannot react immediately and calmly, DON'T ever punish her later for it. No wonder this poor girl is depressed. And yes, her depression, or hostility or violent outbursts, or whatever issues she has, has everything to do with the responses you will get. Whether you like it or not. January This is true, except there are people who use a punishment book system, and there are people who don't live together and delay punishment. But generally speaking, "3 weeks ago on Tuesday, the 13th you did ____ and I am now going to punish you for it" is not very effective. This is yet another reason why I suggested moving away from a punishment dynamic to a positive reinforcement one.

ElanSubdued -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 7:17:03 PM)
Steven, quote: I prefer to call people who disagree with me "fakes". It shows more class. Oh, man! Zinger! You do know how to land a good one! That's almost criminally funny! :-) Elan.

sexyred1 -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 7:22:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoPants quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: CollarSubGirl My turn to respond :) Now I just wanted to explain, there are certain things right now in my life that do not allow me to go to a psychologist nor a psychiatrist. Hopefully one day soon I will be able to go to one but right now, it is not an option. But we are working through it and it's not the point of this forum. Neither is the fact that I have depression part of this forum. I think that the trollers on here who have changed the topic of this conversation. The point of this forum was asking if giving aftercare after a very very painful and well deserved punishment would help "lock in" the punishment into the slaves mind. Now, I'm going to repost the orignal topic and please don't start talking about my depression like I'm some little child who is being bullied and the whole class needs to talk about it to make them stop. Yes I do thank you for all the advice and it has helped Master and I discuss several things but Master is REALLY REALLY looking for advice to the orginal question. quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoPants The boards are for every permutation of question and topic. No one controls the boards except the mods. The topics are not written in stone and threads often become organic, based on responses. No one is a mind reader here and everyone replies based on information given. So if you want to be upset at anyone, be upset at your guy, since he was one who introduced depression into the mix. You may also want to educate him that calling those who reply to a thread "trolls" when he does not like the answer is not the best way to go. Trolls are usually posting for wanking materials and I can assure you, no one here thinks what he or you wrote is wanking material. You cannot control the content of the boards, nor can you dictate who replies and in what manner. Agreed, trolling such as yours is inevitable. I will be sure to learn from my mistakes. Seriously dude? You have to be the biggest douchebag on the boards these days. Your lack of intelligence, clarity, creativity and class is utterly astounding. I can only hope that you decide not to reproduce.

ElanSubdued -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 7:55:11 PM)
sexyred1, hands SR1 a cool, soothing drink Seems like you could use this. :-) I'm not taking sides. I think the OP has been somewhat misunderstood, but he hasn't helped this much with his backhanded replies and statements about trolls. Some of his replies have been very polite and level-headed though. I think this is a case where a particular issue is triggering both sides. I do understand the issue at hand vis-a-vis depression and ethical counseling, but I'm also guessing the approach the OP is taking isn't quite as bad as it sounds. It's rare that people who have long-term partners don't end up helping one another with depression at some point. This help is usually well-intended, unqualified, and sometimes effective, sometimes ineffective, sometimes harmful, and sometimes harmless. It's a bit of a luck of the draw for sure, but it is a human and caring thing to try and help your partner and I think most of us do this. Though the OP's submissive is young and suffers from depression, she doesn't present herself as a doormat. I'm guessing that if the OP really were treating her badly, she'd be out of there. This assessment, I'll admit, is simply my gut feel hypothesis based on what each has posted. If the submissive really is suffering from clinical depression, it would probably be helpful for her to see a qualified professional who is not her partner. There are usually ways to accomplish this regardless of financial ability. Someone suggested that perhaps something else is preventing the submissive from going and this may well be the submissive herself. To the OP: if you really believe your partner is suffering from clinical depression, I suggest you help her get to a qualified professional for assessment and treatment. (i.e. The person treating your partner shouldn't be you and I advise strongly against using your schooling and BDSM relationship as a substitute for appropriate, outside assessment and treatment.) E.

strangedesire -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 8:14:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HypnoPants ... ugh, thank you for enlighteningly useless off-topic trolling. So useless that you...did what I advised? That's an interesting way to say thank you. Punishment has three forms. The first, which ideally (in my mind) doesn't show up in BDSM at all, is a form of bullying or psychological torture, designed to break the resistance of the target. This is often quite harmful. I don't think that you're doing this, but when I think about punishment, I like to keep it in mind to make sure that I'm not doing it. If my girl doesn't want do what I ask, and I start thinking about beating her into submission, that's a problem with me, not her. The second type is formal/ritual punishment. Some dominants use this for large issues that threaten the relationship, and some submissives find that it helps them let go of guilt for transgressions. In my mind, this kind of punishment is only useful for a behavior that the submissive can choose to correct. It can be a shock to the system, a turning point, but it won't actually fix the problem. You cannot punish someone and expect that it will cause them to refrain from smoking in the future, for example. I think of this more as a way of setting things straight and letting go. Unless a submissive craves the kind of accountability that ritualized punishment offers, punishing them frequently in this way may be a sign that there are bigger problems afoot. The third type of punishment is drawn from the behaviorist model of operant conditioning. Operant conditioning is useful for stopping specific behaviors. (Or creating new ones.) Unlike ritual punishment, it has been scientifically shown to decrease unwanted behaviors. Unfortunately, to be effective, punishment usually must be delivered during or immediately after the behavior. The effects of it can be mitigated if the benefits of continuing the behavior is significantly rewarding, however: rats will endure electric shocks to get to cocaine. This is part of the reason that people are discouraging you from linking your sensual massages to punishment: you're effectively offering a reward for her getting herself into a situation that provoked punishment. A final word on operant conditioning: behaviorist models don't acknowledge that the mind exists - they study only behavior. So the methods within may emotionally scar people. Classic behaviorists don't really care, because they mostly study rats, and rats don't complain too much. For people, cognitive-behavioral models are generally preferred. You've heard of cognitive behavioral therapy, right? If not, please retake abnormal psych and get back to me.

strangedesire -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/20/2010 8:26:19 PM)
Elan, I do hear what you're saying. My partner and I have both had issues with depression, and we support each other. This is what people do: you look out for the ones you care about. I can't criticize that. I don't think that BDSM is an appropriate tool to treat depression, but my girl will occasionally ask for stress-relief spankings to help with anxiety, so I can't judge. You work with the tools you have. Personally, though, the idea of one person in a relationship training to be a therapist with the express idea of treating the other? It squicks me a lot. It's good to have a therapist AND a significant other AND close friends because it spreads out the support network. Trying to be therapist and significant other in one creates a lot of dependency on one person. I don't want to imply that the OP is abusive, but manufactured dependency is a tool that abusers use, and so I have some strong biases against it, much the way I have biases against a "master" who tries to make his slave give up all her friends. Yes, I think he's probably coming from a good place, but he's going about it poorly, and he doesn't know enough to see that.

ElanSubdued -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/21/2010 12:38:29 AM)
strangedesire, quote: Yes, I think he's probably coming from a good place, but he's going about it poorly, and he doesn't know enough to see that. Possibly correct. I can't say for sure. quote: Punishment has three forms. The first, which ideally (in my mind) doesn't show up in BDSM at all, is a form of bullying or psychological torture, designed to break the resistance of the target. This is often quite harmful. (snip) The second type is formal/ritual punishment. Some dominants use this for large issues that threaten the relationship, and some submissives find that it helps them let go of guilt for transgressions. In my mind, this kind of punishment is only useful for a behavior that the submissive can choose to correct. (snip) The third type of punishment is drawn from the behaviorist model of operant conditioning. Operant conditioning is useful for stopping specific behaviors. (Or creating new ones.) Unlike ritual punishment, it has been scientifically shown to decrease unwanted behaviors. Unfortunately, to be effective, punishment usually must be delivered during or immediately after the behavior. The effects of it can be mitigated if the benefits of continuing the behavior are significantly rewarding... (snip) A final word on operant conditioning: behaviorist models don't acknowledge that the mind exists - they study only behavior. So the methods within may emotionally scar people. Classic behaviorists don't really care, because they mostly study rats, and rats don't complain too much. (snip) For people, cognitive-behavioral models are generally preferred. I'm not a student of psychology, but this information caused me to review these and other forms of punishment, and is seriously, fucking hot... you know... despite the fact it came from a gender variant, socially liberal feminist who likes solving computer problems, natters on about her metaphorical penis, can't dance, plays bad chess, has a key chain dominated by a flash drive (come on... at least show greater sophistication and install the KDE version of Ubunto on that thing!), makes maximum use of three knots (okay, you're gaining ground here), knows what a p-value is (that's a mnemonic euphemism for "penis size" right?), and, in truth, is just an indecisive lesbian. [;)] E.

strangedesire -> RE: Punishment Spanking Then Massage (10/21/2010 9:41:01 AM)
For anyone who wants to do behavior modification, having a good understanding of classical and operant conditioning are essential. I don't have the training that I would consider necessary: I took a course on behaviorist models, but if I wanted to seriously work with someone to change behavior using these models, I'd want to do some postgrad-level work and pick up a few books targeted at teaching educators to deal with autistic and special ed populations. I'm a scientist. I love "fun" punishment, but if I was going to use punishment that the recipient wouldn't enjoy, I'd make damn sure that there was theoretical and/or clinical evidence showing effectiveness. To do otherwise is cruel and leans toward abusive. Next you're going to be telling me that I should build my own GUI. Who has the time? My primary computer is a $300 laptop - as long as it works, I don't put much stock in geekier-than-thou dick waving.

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