RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (Full Version)

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barelynangel -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 8:03:53 PM)

Within the concept of M/s -- not any other concept as i don't have experience with any other -- to me don't tell me you love me, show me you own me exists.  I need to love, i have no choice but to utterly love the man who masters me.  How can i do anything else, for in his mastery he has reached into the very core of me and grasped it as his.  However, i don't want or need to hear about HIS love because for me, his ownership is the "love" i need from him.  To me, if that ownership is lessened or the mastery is removed to the point my needs are no longer fed, then to me, the concept that for many would probably deem love -- is null and void.

I do believe that on many levels with regard to slavery, for many men -- not all but many men, loving a slave does in fact alter their relationship and the authority.  It may not be a complete break down of the authority but the motivation i guess you can say is different and for many love then does circumvent the ownership.  And in that difference for many men, may in fact cause a struggle in them and, therefore, cause a breakdown in the control and mastery.

But then again, i also don't believe slavery is something many men want to hold their women in IF love is the motive to being in a relationship with her.  Men nowadays simply are not taught that ownership can trump love and that is okay.  Ownership is not something our men are taught so for many they need to tie it up with love because that's what we are taught is acceptable for having relationships.  And for many people in our society -- love is taught as guilt.  The "if you love me..." concept breeds guilt which is harmful to ownership.

For many, while authority can be maintained, i think once love enters the picture and he feels the need to express love, for MANY (not all) their ethics and morals are then brought into question by themselves and many times they start to question their authority.  If i love her how dare i treat her this way, especially with all the DV concepts that roll around our society. 

It takes a strong man to be capable of getting over the guilt of love when they are striving for mastery and ownership.  Is it possible for some -- yes, but is it easy -- no.   However, the rest just go on existing happily in love.  So while the authority may be altered or diminished, does it matter.  It depends on the couple. 

In the end, talk is cheap.  Which is why my motto is -- don't tell me you love me, show me you own me.  For others, it simply could be love = ownership, or even others love=love.

angel



WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 8:39:24 PM)

Since Master doesn't have an account, I'll answer for him. Though since slaves aren't allowed to reply (har har...), I'll be sure to ask for a bunch of spankings from him since I'm being a bad girl.

Master wouldn't want to own something he didn't love. In part, his love of me is what makes him want to lead me and guide me and own me. I earn his love by serving him, by obeying him, by showing him how much I love him by groveling at his feet.

The more he's fallen in love with me, the more authoritative he's become with me, making sure I always meet his expectations and live up to his standards, making sure that he always lives up to my standards and keeping me happy, keeping the life in our relationship so that neither of us get 'lazy' or 'comfy' and letting our relationship slide.

So yes. If anything, the love makes his authority that much more.



Twoshoes -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 8:40:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jujubeeMB
And then the other part, about the rabid craving for one true way...maybe everyone should be sent an email when they join CM that just explains that there is no one true way, and this isn't some super selective elite club that you have to follow the rules or you'll get kicked out.

Forsooth![8D]

(Sorry. [:)])
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
I ask this because, at heart, I'm a kind leader. I'm quite aware that from time to time, obedience MUST be blind without , authority must be stamped without tolerance of delay but on the whole, I wish to lead with transparency and with caring; I'm not a dictator. So - what have your experiences been, striking a balance between being in love with your slave, and being a Master?


What exactly is your worry? That your partner will lose respect for you? That you wouldn't want to hurt them? That you would suddenly have less expectations? All three are unlikely unless you suddenly become another person.
If you actually are a kind-hearted person, I doubt someone desiring nothing but a cold, visceral attitude would have chosen you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
time to time, obedience MUST be blind without

Your purely sexual fantasies and interactions do not need to define your overall attitude toward someone. From "time to time" you can do whatever you (and your partner) want.

IMO, you don't necessarily need 'authority' to lead people if they like you enough, especially if you are a kind leader as you claim. There isn't really a "best" way to lead; people have different personalities and respond best to different approaches.

quote:


quote:

ORIGINAL:pyroaquatic
My compassion and generosity have been terribly eroded and I will live my life gaining leverage over everything.


Ironically, compassion and generosity are two excellent ways to influence people. People will willingly die for ideals and not for anything less. Power out of fear only lasts until you turn your back. Many a Diplomacy game have I lost to fearful allies. Many have I won by attempting to lose. Granted, most of us can only inspire a tiny amount of love, respect, trust or even "this guy isn't too bad after a few drinks", but it'll go further and more naturally than "leverage" over weakness or desperation - emotional, monetary or physical.

Respect and trust is often what works for leaders. However, it's the love that's to die for. Not necessarily cuddly snuggle-bunny love. It could be the kind you'd feel for your fellow soldiers as you get killed unceremoniously.

Edit: labelled quotes.



SorceressJ -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 8:48:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Since Master doesn't have an account, I'll answer for him. Though since slaves aren't allowed to reply (har har...), I'll be sure to ask for a bunch of spankings from him since I'm being a bad girl.

Master wouldn't want to own something he didn't love. In part, his love of me is what makes him want to lead me and guide me and own me. I earn his love by serving him, by obeying him, by showing him how much I love him by groveling at his feet.

The more he's fallen in love with me, the more authoritative he's become with me, making sure I always meet his expectations and live up to his standards, making sure that he always lives up to my standards and keeping me happy, keeping the life in our relationship so that neither of us get 'lazy' or 'comfy' and letting our relationship slide.

So yes. If anything, the love makes his authority that much more.



<-- not a Master/Mistress, but still..
{{{THIS}}}



WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 8:52:23 PM)

SorceressJ, you're makin' me blush! -hides face-



SorceressJ -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 8:57:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

SorceressJ, you're makin' me blush! -hides face-



..then my work here is done. Don't hide the face though, little sister; you'z too pretty and stuff.
No srsly, I totally understand where you're coming from on this; I am blessed enough to have a Man like this also.

[image]local://upfiles/1044097/9B7139F07C164C2EBE5357DB44687BED.jpg[/image]



lizi -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/18/2010 9:00:30 PM)

OP, you're not the Dom of me! [:D] Thanks sexyred for the great concept, I really don't like being told what to do, well, unless, er, yeah...ok, unless it's from my sweetie pie- him I'd listen to.

The love thing hasn't interfered with our relationship; he's pretty hard on me at the times he thinks he should be, which is mainly when he wants something better from me, or when he thinks something will improve my life/his life/our life together, or when he just feels like wailing on my tushie for fun. I can't see that anything has changed from the time we've been together in like to the time when that developed into love. We still do the same stuff in the same ways and it's working pretty darned well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Hi, this question is ONLY to Masters, not mistresses or slaves, please (although if I've PM'ed you this link, then you're here by prior invitation regardless of status and so I DEFINITELY want your considered opinion). I've "Asked a Slave" a similar question and the results were pretty uninformative, so with that refinement in mind, here goes!



Oh, my goodness, some people are responding now to select threads by invitation...! And regardless of status! Weeee! Let the fun begin, I want to see what the real responses will be like. Much better than my paltry attempt I'm sure!

Yo....Steven! Come on in! The water's fine. Plus I get to see your handsome picture again  [:)]



Jaybeee -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 12:13:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrokenSaint

It's a fine line. But there are so many variables involved, depending on how one looks at love in general, and the particulars of a specific love.

Can it lead to a loss of control? Sure. I'd figure that how likely that is to happen is more a function of the discipline one keeps over themselves rather than on another.

I haven't had much difficulty in that area. I tend towards an almost unhealthy amount of introspection and analysis of my own actions, makes it difficult to lose myself in most things. Allows for a kind of disconnect gap between actions and emotions, for lack of a better word. You may also find some insight from the gorean concept of a love slave as well.


I'll be sure to check that out. I salute your compartmentalisation between feelings and action, it's something you can always improve, but never perfect, and you clearly do it better than most, myself included. If you were IN love though, do you think it would remain intact? I think that's the acid test.

On a peripheral note, I've seen a few guys who ARE given to deep introspection make screw-ups in action; it's the difference between poor judgement, and good, that does it. I don't think introspection per se is a bad thing, and quite the opposite for most men as we could use more to correct the general imbalance.



Jaybeee -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 12:32:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shadow-tiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

Do you see any conflict between how much love/affection you can lavish on a slave, and your dominance over her? If you are IN love, do you think there's a point at which too much lovey-dovey stuff, if it starts to cut into the 'stern' times, will lead to a loss of authority? This actually hasn't been my experience in the two relationships I've had since I dropped the whole societal bs about me wanting to be in an "equal" partnership; I've led and so far, I'd gotten the mix correct. But I can't say I was IN love either time; I get the feeling all the rules will be tossed out the window when I'm head over heels.

Alright, I'll come into this fresh from the OP. For me love is an integral part of a relationship, especially if I'm going to take someone as a slave. In a sense for me, the way I interact with someone is an expression of my feelings. Or to put it simply, if I don't love or feel affection for my girl, I'm not going to have much interest in how she serves me. I'm guessing your worry is that you won't want to be stern, demanding, perhaps downright mean if you're in love.


Hi ST,

I think I should have been more emphatic about the difference between loving a slave, and being IN love with her. You proved to yourself that you can love her and that that love only enhanced your mastery over her - but what about when you were IN love with her? Now, I'd imagine if she were also in love with you, none of this would have mattered. But when that initial coup de foudre wore off, did you find you'd let your dominance slip? Did she notice? That's what I'm wondering, for my own purposes.

quote:

Believe me, it's so much more fun that way! Because if you're pissed, it hits home that much more. So many things that can be shared when you get really close to someone. Although closeness doesn't imply love, for me they can be one and the same. Whether or not the rules change when you fall head over heels is dependent on what you really want deep down. You might find yourself being a bit more gentle, less demanding. You might find you're more so, but for different reasons. How will you know unless you try?


By asking those Masters who've been there before me!! :)

quote:

quote:

I ask this because, at heart, I'm a kind leader. I'm quite aware that from time to time, obedience MUST be blind without , authority must be stamped without tolerance of delay but on the whole, I wish to lead with transparency and with caring; I'm not a dictator.

See this right here I have to disagree with. I don't do blind obedience ever, it just doesn't ring true for me. Well alright, there might be a certain type of play where that comes in, but never in day to day life. And authority doesn't need to be wielded like a hammer, as being gentle, a little subtle and nothing but kind may achieve the same result without the submissive realizing it.


My view is that transparency, as a rule, IS the rule because you love your slave. You want her reassured, deep down, that the policies that govern your actions are driven by principles that she firmly agrees with. However...every so often (and whether you do it every month, or every year will vary from Master to Master), you order her to do something that may seem arbitrary, pointless or even contrary to her own good, precisely because you are honing her obedience.




WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 1:21:51 AM)

I suppose, Jaybee, that my Master's reasoning - while in my words was still HIS reasoning - is not worth reading? Or merely not worth replying to as it was said by a slave?

Not being rude, just curious to know. Not to mention curious to know whether the subs/slaves who did reply very well thought out remarks were listened to as well.



Jaybeee -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 3:58:11 AM)

Big bear cuddles to you, J !! :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UniqueRaven

Honestly, I see this as - like so many things - up to the two involved in the relationship, and their compatibility.

I did have this situation with my previous Master. Over the years, he came to love me so much and placed me on a pedestal, that he was no longer able to control, guide, and "Master" me - which is a fundamental need of mine.


See, this is PRECISELY my fear J - when I find "She Who Satisfies Me in All Ways Bar One", I am going to be utterly besotted. I can only hope she feels equally smitten, and the whole master/slave dynamic can be momentarily and intermittently suspended as need be. I'll be fawning over her, kissing her toes for hours on end (and I'm not even a "foot"-man!), letting her cry happy tears on my shoulder and vice versa, wanting to spend every second of the weekend with her, etc etc.

NONE of which I apologise for - I'll be enamoured, and that's what happens when you've fallen in love. Nor will I be doing any of this worrying when I actually DO fall in love; I only hope in advance that I will have fallen for a gal good enough to see I'm loony over her, that's all, and is willing to remember how dominant I was just after we first started out, overlook my unmasterful, vanilla gushing for a few weeks, perhaps months, until the initial love "high" wears off, and I go into that deep, enduring, caring mode that ought to last a lifetime. Though even that is going to be spiked by occasional random, "Pack your bikini, we're leaving NOW!" trips to her favourite holiday spot or flowers. I read in the

quote:

So this did cause so stress between us, and ultimately contributed to our eventual separation. I need that firm hand, that strong support, and someone to provide that structure - structure that allows me to simply relax, be myself as a slave, and exist fully in his service.


This is it, I'm curious as to what what a "firm hand" entails, about what the rules concern (as opposed to what the rules are), and most crucially, whether I could maintain even a semblance of holding her to them when I'm madly in love. If you ask my opinion, examples of these should be listed in the Owner's Manual for every gal. :) In any case, I still hold out hope for a happy medium, even if it's just, "Ok, you'll only have to be on this pedestal for a month, then down you come".

:)

quote:

So what does that mean for me? I can serve anyone. I can - I am capable of it. However, the best reason (for me), and the only reason I will serve someone again at this stage in my life is because I adore my Owner/Master, and have the other aspects of the Owner/property relationship in addition to simply service. So in that case, yes, I am seeking love - I want it - but I need a man who needs to be an Owner like I need to be a slave. And then when we're both in that authentic place of simply being ourselves in the power exchange and the structure, then love simply is just there - and isn't a worry or a concern.


I think in your case J, you've proved that it's better to be an unowned slave, than to settle for an average Owner. So in that regard you don't need a Master as such, but when a guy comes along hoping to win your heart and obedience, you need him to want each as much as he wants the other. Where we differ, if we differ at all on the matter, is that I believe love truly will overwhelm all barriers - I can convince her I'll return to my usual masterful self, and if she ever needs a reminder, she could always hint, "Master, with all respect, perhaps now would be a good time to order me to get you a beer".

[:D]

quote:

Truly, worrying about love in an M/s relationship is just the same as worrying about protocol, or structure, or rituals, or anything else. You do what works for you and your slave - and don't worry about what falls by the wayside, as it's part of being human in an authentic, loving, relationship.


It's a sweet thought, I do hope that'll be the case.



CaringandReal -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 4:25:23 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Within the concept of M/s -- not any other concept as i don't have experience with any other -- to me don't tell me you love me, show me you own me exists.  I need to love, i have no choice but to utterly love the man who masters me.  How can i do anything else, for in his mastery he has reached into the very core of me and grasped it as his.  However, i don't want or need to hear about HIS love because for me, his ownership is the "love" i need from him.  To me, if that ownership is lessened or the mastery is removed to the point my needs are no longer fed, then to me, the concept that for many would probably deem love -- is null and void.

I do believe that on many levels with regard to slavery, for many men -- not all but many men, loving a slave does in fact alter their relationship and the authority.  It may not be a complete break down of the authority but the motivation i guess you can say is different and for many love then does circumvent the ownership.  And in that difference for many men, may in fact cause a struggle in them and, therefore, cause a breakdown in the control and mastery.



This is one of the very few messages I've read on here where, after reading it, I think, "I can't add anything more." Really, you say it all and say it quite clearly. This post expresses not only my attitude but also my experience perfectly. Thanks for representing the slave contingent. ;)

Ok, I will add one thing, but it's only speculation. Perhaps the love getting in the way of ownership issue doesn't start to cause problems until you're well along in the relationship. This could be why some people are expressing denial of this occuring: their relationships may still be "relatively "new? For my last relationship, it didn't start to be a serious issue until about year 10 or 11.



allthatjaz -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 4:45:39 AM)

You need to ask yourself some questions... Does that dominant personality of yours just flow out when your around the right person? or is there an awkward act going on?
The reason S could not get his vanilla relationships to survive is because he is assertive, somewhat demanding and has high expectations of the woman in his life. A vanilla woman may find that overly dominant but that is how he is and not just how he behaves when he is around a submissive.
Acting dominant must be extremely tiresome, exhausting even and I'm sure that's why so many people who portray themselves as dominant end up in lots of short lived relationships. If one can't relax and comfortably show all of their emotions, then in my opinion they are on a hiding to nothing.

Being in love does not change ones personality, it just enhances it.




allthatjaz -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 4:52:44 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Within the concept of M/s -- not any other concept as i don't have experience with any other -- to me don't tell me you love me, show me you own me exists.  I need to love, i have no choice but to utterly love the man who masters me.  How can i do anything else, for in his mastery he has reached into the very core of me and grasped it as his.  However, i don't want or need to hear about HIS love because for me, his ownership is the "love" i need from him.  To me, if that ownership is lessened or the mastery is removed to the point my needs are no longer fed, then to me, the concept that for many would probably deem love -- is null and void.

I do believe that on many levels with regard to slavery, for many men -- not all but many men, loving a slave does in fact alter their relationship and the authority.  It may not be a complete break down of the authority but the motivation i guess you can say is different and for many love then does circumvent the ownership.  And in that difference for many men, may in fact cause a struggle in them and, therefore, cause a breakdown in the control and mastery.



This is one of the very few messages I've read on here where, after reading it, I think, "I can't add anything more." Really, you say it all and say it quite clearly. This post expresses not only my attitude but also my experience perfectly. Thanks for representing the slave contingent. ;)

Ok, I will add one thing, but it's only speculation. Perhaps the love getting in the way of ownership issue doesn't start to cause problems until you're well along in the relationship. This could be why some people are expressing denial of this occuring: their relationships may still be "relatively "new? For my last relationship, it didn't start to be a serious issue until about year 10 or 11.



Actually I find this to be quiet sad.
Some people don't need love but I would never want to be with someone who wanted to live on the fringes of rejection. Some people really do need to feel vulnerable for any of this to work but only some.

To suggest that some people are expressing denial is ludicrous. You can only go on your own experience but you should never tar others with the same brush that tarred you.



barelynangel -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 5:03:55 AM)

Personally, i doubt most people know what love is but what's more i doubt most people know WHY they need it so badly.  I think for many love is an obligation when you are in a committed relationship so they many times need to manufacture it.  Love is something thet HAVE to identify because for many its a concept that must be in place for a committed relationship to be "acceptable."  There are however from what i see in this world an obligation and rules as to how to "do love" and i think that's what hinders the M/s concept for many.  But in the end, i also believe many would choose love over ownership and be content. 

Again, societal influence here as well as a politically correct concept.  In the end it comes down to an individual concept of what is love to them.  Many people would look at my definition and say his love was his ownership.  Maybe, but to me, i was the one who defined it as love.  His whispered words were "I own you."  Not "I love you." 

I always find it odd many times that men especially use I love you as an apology, or when they think the woman wants to hear it.  Many times its verbalized because the actions are showing something different or they feel its appropriate to say it.

I think there is security in believing someone loves you because on many levels it solidifies a relationship.  Many don't see how a relationship can continue without the love being verbalized or, for many, there.  But for me, my security was and is the ownership and mastery.  As you can see OP, many people see it differently but i think on many levels its simply defined differently.

angel 



barelynangel -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 5:16:30 AM)

Allthatjaz, what are you talking about as my post was quoted in that?  If you are talking about my post quoted, who lived on the fringe of rejection?   I was with my Master for almost 8 years and was quite secure in our relationship from the very beginning.  Hell, he owned me, what did i have to feel vulnerable about?  So i am not sure who your response is to or what you deem as "sad." or "living on the edge of rejection" or "vulnerable."  Perhaps you should clarify?

It sounds to me like you think LOVE takes away people feeling vulnerable or takes away the fear of rejection and such?  Hell to me, i have seem more bitching, whinging, whining and crying, fighting and arguing about LOVE in relationships even with regard to the dynamics spoken about on boards such as this than i ever have about ownership -- hell who needs that type of stress.  

angel



allthatjaz -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 6:01:30 AM)


What if a Master really did fall in love with you. What if he afraid to tell you because he knew that was the last thing you wanted to hear? Your allowed to love him but the relationship could be in jeopardy if he loved you back. He now has to live with that secret feeling of rejection. You said 'Within the concept of M/s -- not any other concept as i don't have experience with any other'. Why does it have to be another concept? Is it not possible for a Master to love his slave and still be her Master ?






barelynangel -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 6:25:06 AM)

grins who said anything about he didn't love me?   Be careful allthatjaz, you seem to be reading things i never said. 

arches an eyebrow lol a Master AFRAID to tell me he loved me.  Yeah the relationship would be doomed.  Not because of the LOVE but because he allowed the LOVE to control him.  Sorry but your have just proven my point -- love can destroy the M/s concept.  You have hit on the head why love can in fact destroy the ability for the man to BE the master.  hell if he is AFRAID to tell me and "He now has to live with that secret feeling of rejection." he isn't a man who i will respect.   IF he allows love to MAKE him afraid and he LIVES with that SECRET feeling of rejection, then he isn't a Master to me, he is a man who is letting love infringe on WHO HE IS.  No man worth his salt as an alpha man would continue a relationship as a Master wherein he is AFRAID to tell his slave something or is content to live with a SECRET feeling of rejection.

You probably don't realize it but your post here proves why and how LOVE can in fact alter the dynamic in the most negative way IF in fact its going to make the Man afraid and living with a secret that makes him feel rejected.  Your comments about the man being afraid etc proves that love can in fact take away the very foundation that exists when it was simply mastery and ownership.    He would let LOVE control him rather than being the master and owner he was.  Just as much as a Man who knows his slave needs discipline would hestitate before applying same because he LOVES her, or even maintaining control over her because of the guilt that he LOVES her.

Umm go back and READ my post allthatjaz because you obviously haven't read it.  I never ever said that   "Is it not possible for a Master to love his slave and still be her Master ? " 

If a Man who claims to be my Master allows ME to dictate what he can or cannot do with me even if it is he can't tell me he loves me, then he isn't the alpha male i need as a Master.   And this would eat at him based on his fear of telling me and his secret feeling of rejection, until it DOES effect his mastery and ownership of me.   No man can live in that and NOT let it effect him.  Your post shows that love can control the man to the point the very foundation of who he was as an owner disappears for what owner would be afraid to tell his slave anything and what owner would have a secret feeling of rejection based on something he feels he feels for his slave.

angel



Daddysredhead -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 6:34:03 AM)

To SJ: I love that poem. It's the way I feel about DB. Thank you for sharing it. [:)]



barelynangel -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/19/2010 6:38:41 AM)

Its always odd in threads like this because its like people are all aghast when love doesn't play into maintaining the relationship as a whole but the ownership does.  i always wonder why, why are people sometimes so afraid of love not being a motivating factor in maintaining a relationship.

Ownership to me is what is my security, my love, and my needs -- so why should someone like me fuck it all up by requiring love predominantly from the Man who owns me.  Why is that sad as allthatjaz commented on.  Those 8 years of my life were some of my happiest most secure times in my life.  But she indicates it is "sad."

Love is such an arbitrary word, why is it needed -- because its the right politically correct -- not sad concept to have in a committed relationship?

Hell i have seen what many people call "love" even on these boards, and to me it doesn't seem like its all that its cracked up to be and to me, that is sad.

angel



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