RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority?

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sexyred1 -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 9:29:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Twoshoes The biggest problem with this thread: the OP deliberately worded it in a way to discourage discussion or even sharing differing opinions. (Despite the words "Community Discussion" being one of the labels at the very top.) Imo, there should just be a new thread about 'love'. After reading this entire thread, I would say that the biggest problem with this thread is the OP. I am amazed that no one else has called the OP on his patronizing and sarcastic words, despite the attempt to throw in a few LOL's. I especially loved the part about not understanding the contradiction of how women of prodigious intellect could want to be enslaved and how many dumb women simply want someone to make decisions for them. You cannot honestly be this dense to not understand the dichotomy and duality of most of our natures. OP, you have insulted women's intelligence, insulted subs/slaves and even insulted thoughtful Doms on this thread. And you did it in the most cowardly way. I prefer to have my sarcasm and condescension served up raw, and not covered in syrup.

Jaybeee -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 9:43:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf There are many types of love, but for purposes of this discussion I will assume you mean the deep, bonding as a mate kind of love. Yes it can be done, but self assessment and control must be used quite often if you wish to maintain a power exchange relationship. After a time it becomes second nature, and you learn the little things that can snare and distract you from guiding the dynamic to one of M/s or whatever. I have a saying that stands true to this day, "I must own my slave more than I love her. The more that I own her, the deeper I can love her." With my property the ownership must come first. I have spoken with other owners in a 24/7 relationship, and most of them have expressed the same thing. I have also known owners to allow the love to control them too much, so that their slave was now in control by utilizing that emotion to get what they wanted. You know, the martial arts have a similar philosophy, "Control in no control", meaning that if you simply stop trying to control, and either act on impulse (vs self-control) or on subtlety/subterfuge (vs outright force), you often achieve GREATER control than. And yes, I agree you must control her as much (if not more) than you love her. I'm starting to understand how the two are intertwined; a good father has no end of love for his daughter, but he rules her. Ubrigens, dein signatur ist brillant !!

Arturas -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 9:57:18 AM)
quote: When he spoke that Love first and Mastery second wouldn't work because it would inevitably lead to a breakdown in control, I simply stated that while that may be what happens for him, it isn't what happens for a lot of people, and it doesn't hurt to see how other people work and tick as well. I understood where he was coming from, that his way didn't apply to me, but I also wanted to know - as I felt by his phrasing - if he felt that that was the only way. Seeing as how he didn't PM me for my Master's email so that Arturas could hear from Master himself, I guess he must have taken my comment as truth - unless he just thought I was lying out my ass. Greetings WolfyMontgomery, I do believe what I said does apply to all Master/slave situations if the Master is to remain unquestionably in charge. I also am sure you did not lie to me; you related your true perceptions and they are real to you and I respect that. I was very interested in your male master's perception on this relationship if he was easily reached because, news flash, men and women are different. When does the male master view their world through his female slave's eyes? I wish you well, Arturas

erebus -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 6:31:20 PM)
An issue that has brought out a lot of discussion. I don't believe love and dominance are mutually exclusive. A parent loves his children, but exercises control. A couple consists of two people. In case of a tie, someone has to break the deadlock. That generally is the Dom/Master/Sir. Followers can love and adore their leader. So back to the original question, the answer is that a man can indeed rule, and still be madly in love with his slave.

WolfyMontgomery -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 6:52:33 PM)
Arturas, He doesn't view the world through my eyes, no, but at the same time, he agrees with what I say otherwise I wouldn't be allowed to post. So my perceptions are the same as his - or at the very least he completely agrees WITH my perceptions. As such, even though men and women are different, obviously Master and I can fully agree with each other on this. As such, news flash, men and women can see eye to eye on topics and allow the woman to speak for the man on certain things. He is unquestionably the one in charge, and it started with love and graduated to Dominance, and then to my giving myself completely to him as his slave. What works and doesn't work for you does not necessarily have to be the same for others. Obviously your philosophy works impeccably in your situation - it works for you, as I'm sure it does for plenty of other people. At the same time though, isn't it a little narrow minded to believe that it is the only way to be, especially when there are so many others who speak of a different way? They can't ALL be wrong, after all, when their philosophies work just as well for them as your philosophy works for you. Also, I gave you a way to contact my Master about it - you won't be able to hear from him on here due to the fact that he does not have an account. But if you PM me I will ask him if I can supply you with his email so that you can ask him yourself, if you so desire.

DMFParadox -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 7:35:41 PM)
To answer your original question, JB: There's no conflict between love and control. There is a conflict between control vs. lazy loving. By which I mean, allowing your caring to be the primary consideration in your actions. You must be able and willing to walk away; and able and willing to do whatever it takes to get what you want, at the same time. And you have to want something from your subbie that's more than just her high opinion of you. You have to want experiences for your own sake; and for your own reasons. And you must be willing to accept that a submissive will do what you ask because you ask, not because you've loved them enough to earn the right. That's their role, not yours. The way I think of it is like this. As the dominant, you need to have a vision of the big picture. Of where you want things to go, things you want to do, places you want to see. You then need to be able to communicate this vision, possibly even 'sell' it. Get the other person excited about being in your world, doing things your way for your reasons. That is practically the essence of dominance; all the leathery b.s. is just icing compared to this one essential ingredient. And when you've been there and done that, you need to know where you want to go next. You can't be both dominant and aimless. Dominant and loving, sure. But never aimless. Another way of thinking about this is that you need to have a life. Something bigger than just being comfortable. You need to have goals that you work towards. Like, say you want to make a movie, or sail around the world, or sing/perform. And if the other person doesn't fit into that life, and that vision, end the relationship. It's harsh, but generally best for all concerned, and it's usually the case that that person wouldn't work out anyway if you compromised yourself completely for them... and somewhere out there is someone who probably would love the chance to be part of your adventure.

DMFParadox -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/23/2010 7:42:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee You know, the martial arts have a similar philosophy, "Control in no control", meaning that if you simply stop trying to control, and either act on impulse (vs self-control) or on subtlety/subterfuge (vs outright force), you often achieve GREATER control than. This only works if you have training or instincts that you're getting in the way of by trying to manage them; if you don't, then managing your actions is crucial. Acting on impulse is no perfect solution.

Jaybeee -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 12:48:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DMFParadox To answer your original question, JB: There's no conflict between love and control. There is a conflict between control vs. lazy loving. By which I mean, allowing your caring to be the primary consideration in your actions. You must be able and willing to walk away; and able and willing to do whatever it takes to get what you want, at the same time. And you have to want something from your subbie that's more than just her high opinion of you. You have to want experiences for your own sake; and for your own reasons. And you must be willing to accept that a submissive will do what you ask because you ask, not because you've loved them enough to earn the right. That's their role, not yours. The way I think of it is like this. As the dominant, you need to have a vision of the big picture. Of where you want things to go, things you want to do, places you want to see. You then need to be able to communicate this vision, possibly even 'sell' it. Get the other person excited about being in your world, doing things your way for your reasons. That is practically the essence of dominance; all the leathery b.s. is just icing compared to this one essential ingredient. And when you've been there and done that, you need to know where you want to go next. You can't be both dominant and aimless. Dominant and loving, sure. But never aimless. Another way of thinking about this is that you need to have a life. Something bigger than just being comfortable. You need to have goals that you work towards. Like, say you want to make a movie, or sail around the world, or sing/perform. And if the other person doesn't fit into that life, and that vision, end the relationship. It's harsh, but generally best for all concerned, and it's usually the case that that person wouldn't work out anyway if you compromised yourself completely for them... and somewhere out there is someone who probably would love the chance to be part of your adventure. Again, my instincts about your intellect were on the money. Frankly I'm astonished you're not quite 30, you have the salty, Hemingwayesque maturity of the great men of our fathers generation. I have to say, this would be damn good advice for ANY man in ANY relationship, however vanilla. I will disagree on one point; if you're truly in love, as in that first dizzy rush that wears off within a few days/weeks, it's pretty damn near impossible (but still desirable) to break it off with a girl who doesn't want to be dominated. No, it will NOT work out long term, and her intransigence will break the relationship later, not me sooner. However, picking her at all, in the first place, would have been poor judgement on my part. That, however, is just my opinion, having been head-over-heels before.

allthatjaz -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 2:17:24 AM)
You could read a text book on how to drive a car and learn the theory off by heart. You could even learn how the internal combustion engine works but until you get in a car, you will have no idea how the pedals feel or the delicate balance of the clutch.

barelynangel -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 4:20:03 AM)
You know the more and more i read these responses, it seems to me that for many M/s is something they do, not who they are. I am slave, its not something i do, its simply i am. I am not a submissive. The slave in me is reactive to him based on his ability to master and his determination that i will exist in his life as he decides not as i decide. He creates the environment and atomosphere wherein i exist in his life, and within same he gives me no choice but to meet and maintain his expectations and standards. My life as slave to him is not something i do because he loves me, its something i have no control over because he determined he would own me. Grant it, it doesn't happen with every man, there needs to be a reaction of slave from me to the Man he is. To me, on many levels the love of the man is his requesting permission almost to take what is his. If you need his love to be his slave, how is that a concept of control? How is it something of who you are as individuallys but more so as a couple, rather than something you do because you decided his love was sufficient for you to what humor him and be submissive to him when he flexes his control? In all concepts of being in a relationship, yes there has to be conditions so to speak met -- i.e., chemistry, attraction, compatibility, feeding of needs. But based on the fact most people have an arbitrary view of love and some can't really articulate it -- it just seems very unnecessary to require "love" to move forward with submission. Where is the reaction to him the man who is naturally your master, if you stop yourself and say now has he said he loved me, does he indicate he loves me. So to me, a couple who utilizes love as a condition to move forward with the mastery, does in fact keep the ultimate concept of control out of his hands. But in the end, if push comes to shove, if he doesn't have the control because his control of you is based on his love and your assessing his love for you with the submissive deciding whether or not its good enough to submit to him. The M/s is then a concept of what you do instead of simply who you are to each other, yes? So how does he actually maintain authority, when you the submissive or some call it being a slave are actually the one determining if the authority may exist? How is it a natural reaction if you have to determine whether or not he has reacted some level of "love" for you, when for many love is arbitrary. Who is actually initiating the mastery then, -- him based on who he is, or you based on your assessment of his love? Nope, from what people are saying, i don't see how the Man maintains his authority when his authority is only allowed based on his subs critic of his love for her. Because from what many are saying, he never had the authority to begin with, she has and does hold the authority as a whole. On the other hand, a Man and woman could fall in love because of the dynamic as a whole. But i believe if he does, he needs to be that much more diligent to make sure he maintains the authority over her by his mastery and not by her permission. I know many people who see a concept of SSC will not like my use of permission here. But M/s to me is a completely natural concept, not something people do because of consensuality or permission. The Man determines he wants to own her and goes about doing same. As a Master HE is the one who assesses whether or not its doable to own her and he proceeds based on his assessment of the situation. Sometimes, and many men are not capable of mastering women, he would have to cut his losses because she is reactionary to his mastery, and sometimes she will react to him as slave. BUt i guess on many levels i see this requirement of love by many to move the M/s from being who they are to something they do. M/s should never be something you do, to me that completely distorts the naturalness of the concept, M/s should simply be who you are. And if it is who you are, love may be a concept that is present but its not the reason the M/s exists. How does he if love is a factor, maintain an authority he never had? angel

TotalDiscipline -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 8:41:44 AM)
quote: it seems to me that for many M/s is something they do, not who they are. Aslong they are happy with it..and we respect eachothers way we chose to life it..that is fine not?

sexyred1 -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 8:59:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel M/s should never be something you do, to me that completely distorts the naturalness of the concept, M/s should simply be who you are. And if it is who you are, love may be a concept that is present but its not the reason the M/s exists. How does he if love is a factor, maintain an authority he never had? angel Sorry, but your entire post smacks of one true way. What is right for you, is not for others and I know you know that. For many of us, M/s IS something we do, and does not define our entire life or relationships for that matter. I don't see how it is unnatural to "do" something; after all, to do something it has to exist as part of you. I don't ACT submissive, I just do it when it is right. How is that not being an integrated part of me? Are you saying that because one does not participate 24/7 it is not real for them? Just as your definition of whether love is essential is just about you, so is your definition of what M/s is, and you cannot paint everyone with the same brush.

KnightofMists -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 9:03:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Hi, this question is ONLY to Masters, not mistresses or slaves, please (although if I've PM'ed you this link, then you're here by prior invitation regardless of status and so I DEFINITELY want your considered opinion). I've "Asked a Slave" a similar question and the results were pretty uninformative, so with that refinement in mind, here goes! Do you see any conflict between how much love/affection you can lavish on a slave, and your dominance over her? If you are IN love, do you think there's a point at which too much lovey-dovey stuff, if it starts to cut into the 'stern' times, will lead to a loss of authority? This actually hasn't been my experience in the two relationships I've had since I dropped the whole societal bs about me wanting to be in an "equal" partnership; I've led and so far, I'd gotten the mix correct. But I can't say I was IN love either time; I get the feeling all the rules will be tossed out the window when I'm head over heels. I ask this because, at heart, I'm a kind leader. I'm quite aware that from time to time, obedience MUST be blind without , authority must be stamped without tolerance of delay but on the whole, I wish to lead with transparency and with caring; I'm not a dictator. So - what have your experiences been, striking a balance between being in love with your slave, and being a Master? I look forward to your thoughts, gentlemen (and a couple of dear ladies too!) Jaybeee. I made this post some time in the past and to date... my opinions have not changed ... =================================================== Some may say Love is a hindrance to the M/s dynamic. But, I would say that Love is a fundamental aspect of my M/s Relationships. I couldn't imagine myself having this type of relationship without Love being apart of it. Love and Respect of thy self... the most Powerful of Motivations... it comes from within...It's the intrinsic motivation that is only limited by oneself and dependent on no one but oneself. Love for me has always been a Choice as much as it has been a Feeling. My feelings have always been motivated by what I perceive... Be it real or illusion. The choice is to see the truth of what I perceive from the lies. Therefore, one must make the effort to Love! Love will flow like water if you let it. But, water will flow the easiest path... and this could lead you over a cliff. Healthy Thoughtful Love is much more than free flowing water, but just as powerful. We control it, we manage it. We guide it. When it is time to allow it to flow, we let it flow. When we must harness its power, we focus it and feel its power. But we never push it up hill! Remember the flow well pick up everything and can move anything over the course of time. But if allowed to flow uncontrolled, it will wander aimlessly and finally dumping in a pool... its power never focused and utilized. Love to me binds the people to a relationship. It moves the focus from themselves to focus on the other and the relationship itself. I question when love is not part of the relationship, if the focus ever moves from oneself to the relationship. Without love, I wonder if the individuals are only using the other and the relationship to serve their self-centered interests. Taking what they can and maybe draining the lemon dry, then going to find a new lemon. I wonder if there are some that use the word love, but it is a shallow use of the word instead of the intense devotion that it leads one towards. Love to me is a powerful word if it used with the feelings that back it up. It moves one from the self-centered focus to that of a focus to another person and a relationship. We become givers instead of takers and as result of our giving out of love we receive more than we could ever take. Instead sucking the lemon dry... We plant an orchard and reap the rewards of that effort I have been in a relationship with Alandra since in summer of ‘87. It was then as is now without question a relationship that is very much a loving and growing relationship. I am also growing a young loving relationship with Kyra that began in spring of ‘05. Frankly, I find it difficult to comprehend how anyone can have an intimate BDSM relationship without love being an important part of that relationship. I suppose it is done, but I have not seen it done successful over a course of many years. I thought I was in love with Alandra years ago... but I kept finding that day by day our depth of love just kept growing and never stopping. It's to the point that I look to tomorrow with excitement because my experience has showed me that I will be loved and love her even more than I do today. My experience with alandra has also had an extremely positive effect on my relationship with kyra. When I first touched her gently on the cheek that first time we saw each other... I felt a deep sense of love... but today that love seems pale in comparisons to the way I feel now... god I can hardly wait for tomorrow. My approach is simple in the relationships I am in. Out of love, We become open to be who we are. I seek not to make my girls what they are not... I only seek to support them to shed that which is illusions of them selves, as they support me in doing the same thing. A relationship with me is about bringing the inner self out into the open and being this person. Out of love we accept what comes. This line of thought is nothing new. A noted psychologist termed the word "congruence" Essentially it means that the more we are able to demonstrate that inner self to the world/relationships, The more content/stable and at peace we become. We are happier. The deeper we hid this inner aspect of our self, well it is a path of unhappiness. I see love as a vehicle to facilitate this path towards happiness. It is not only path that I use. For I believe there are many strategies in building our personal happiness with our self and our relationships. The path I describe is one of Self-Awareness leading to Self-Acceptance leading to Self-Actualization. The interesting aspect of this path is that it is actually circular. As we Self-actualize we are destine to become more aware of aspects of our inner self... which will lead us to need to Accept this new found awareness in order for further actualization to occur. It is my beliefs that if we stop this cycle at any point we stop to grow in ourselves and in our relationships. We stop to bringing that inner self into the light of day and thus we establish a ceiling to our individual happiness. I suspect that many of us do this from time to time and can actually live very happy lives to the end of our days. Being in a relationship that is fundamentally a loving relationship promotes trust, security, validation and whole array of things that promote this cycle of growth. I am loved not for what I do for them, "but for who I am". To push and bring my full awareness of my inner self to the open to those that love me can only grow this love. So I choose to be "Me" and enjoy the great happiness it gives me. Just as I love my girls for them are being who they are. However, I do not believe I could ever enjoy the love that is given to me, nor give love my girls to the depth I do unless we first love ourselves. However, It is so much easier to love another than to accept the love from another. We know what is in our hearts and minds, but we only think we know what is in theirs. The difference is subtle but significant. To accept the love of another when we don't love our self is never an easy path. When we fail to love ourselves it begs to question the motivations of another that express love towards us. It is therefore my thoughts that “Awareness, .Acceptance & Actualization” is to grow our love of self and not just our relationship. Some may say Love is a hindrance to the M/s dynamic and I would have to agree in some cases. In comparison, Many parents who love their children very much are blinded by that love to make the choices and decisions that are best for raising their children. They are blinded by "my children do no wrong" and I suspect everyone can think of examples of such. Because this, are they good parents? Should they be parents? Should parents not love their children? I see no difference between the Master that allows his/her love to negatively affect his/her responsibilities towards the slave as the parent that allows love to negatively affect their responsibilities towards their children. It is my opinion we choose to love and as Masters we choose to exercise our authority. One need not conflict with the other. To me it is not a question if Love should be in the relationship... It is should they be a Master? If love causes a person not to fulfill their responsibilities... then let them never know what love is.

littlewonder -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 9:05:51 AM)
I am a submissive personality. I have no desire to lead in anything in life and when I met Master for the first time it was extremely easy for me to submit to him. I did right then and there but without being in love with him it would not have been satisfying and fulfilling. With love I have a passion to be his slave, not just submit to him because it's my personality. Without being in love with him it's just who I am and probably would continue to still submit to him but not with the same affection, not in the same way I do now. I would be submissive to him but not his slave. There's a difference.

DMFParadox -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 9:17:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaybeee Frankly I'm astonished you're not quite 30, you have the salty, Hemingwayesque maturity of the great men of our fathers generation. I'm 31. I hadn't bothered to update my age for a while. Thanks for reminding me.

DesFIP -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 10:14:58 AM)
I've met people I have felt submissive to, thankfully my good sense overrides that chemistry and tells me that to submit to this person would be a bad thing to do. And this is why I need love in the relationship because otherwise although I could well be submissive to him, I would not trust him to take sufficient care of me. You could buy a car for $40,000 or buy one for $300 that would just get you through a couple of months before you junk it with no regrets. With love, I'm the new car that he values and maintains. Without it, I'm the beater he abandons at the side of the road.

jujubeeMB -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 4:57:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel M/s should never be something you do, to me that completely distorts the naturalness of the concept, M/s should simply be who you are. And if it is who you are, love may be a concept that is present but its not the reason the M/s exists. How does he if love is a factor, maintain an authority he never had? angel Sorry, but your entire post smacks of one true way. What is right for you, is not for others and I know you know that. For many of us, M/s IS something we do, and does not define our entire life or relationships for that matter. I don't see how it is unnatural to "do" something; after all, to do something it has to exist as part of you. I don't ACT submissive, I just do it when it is right. How is that not being an integrated part of me? Are you saying that because one does not participate 24/7 it is not real for them? Just as your definition of whether love is essential is just about you, so is your definition of what M/s is, and you cannot paint everyone with the same brush. Exactly what red said. Give me a break - not needing love to be a part of the equation doesn't make you any more inherently submissive than anyone else. And by the way, I don't require my Master to be in love with me - it's something that makes his desire to control me deeper and more complex. And, in fact, knowing he loves me makes me significantly more vulnerable to him, which is something we both want. If I wanted him to love me and he didn't, I would end the relationship for both our sakes.

sexyred1 -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 6:40:06 PM)
Nods. If you find love in today's fractured world you are indeed lucky. To diminish it's worth or to say it is not needed, or worry about loss of authority is just wrong on many levels, to me.

Twoshoes -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/24/2010 9:31:28 PM)
You don't need authority when you're too lovable to say 'no' to. [8D]

NuevaVida -> RE: Being in love with a slave - can a man maintain authority? (10/25/2010 6:59:24 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: barelynangel BUt i guess on many levels i see this requirement of love by many to move the M/s from being who they are to something they do. Why is this an either/or to you? M/s can not be something you are AND do? Your premise does not make sense to me, and seems to be an attempt to compartmentalize the "right way" from the "wrong way." quote: M/s should never be something you do, to me that completely distorts the naturalness of the concept, M/s should simply be who you are. And if it is who you are, love may be a concept that is present but its not the reason the M/s exists. Lotta "shoulds" here. Are you the authority on M/s relationships, and on how certain relationship components should affect people as a whole? I see this as very limited thinking. quote: How does he if love is a factor, maintain an authority he never had? Relationships have motivators. What attracts individuals to each other is unique to those individuals. Surely you are moved by certain attractors or you would give yourself to anyone who labels himself as a "Master", because M/s is simply what you are. I would venture to guess M/s is what you are, given the right conditions - SOME conditions are being met for you to want to give yourself to him. Otherwise, the next homeless guy who comes along could be your owner. But what you are doing here is saying only the conditions you approve of should be met, otherwise - what? Someone is not worthy of an M/s title? (to which I say "big deal"). Throughout this thread you've been saying you don't want to hear the words "I love you" - how is that not placing conditions on your owner? What if your owner fell head over heels in love with you, did not waiver in his authority, AND chose to constantly tell you how much he loved you? You said in a previous post: "Which is why my motto is -- don't tell me you love me, show me you own me." How is that not placing a condition? Why are certain mottos ok and others not?

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