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how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:17:47 PM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline 		 I can't count how many times I have read threads and arguments about the bdsm lifestyle and gorean lifestyle verses domestic abuse. It often turns into a very heated topic. Safe, sane, and consensual are phrases constantly used.

I began thinking lately about this lately.
 
Does the definition of these three words vary from person to person?

If they vary how does one define what is safe, sane and consensual for "them"?

If as lifestyles weather bdsm or gorean IF we cannot define things amongst ourselves how can we expect others outside of the lifestyle to understand them?
 
The reality is to those not a part of these alternative lifestyles can easily call allot of what goes on domestic abuse. I also think that those that are abusers are not unique to alternative lifestyles, however; they are all to often the ones that those outside the lifestyle see as "representatives" of the lifestyles.
 
I would like to get individual definitions of safe, sane, and consensual.

I would like to get personal views on how as individuals we each view the difference between bdsm lifestyle /gorean lifestyle versus abuse.
 
Please do not make this out to be finger pointing to specific people.
I think by discussing personal definitions we can come to understand each other and then hopefully help others outside of our arenas understand us.
 
Nika {Phoenix}


< Message edited by Phoenixandnika -- 4/26/2006 1:18:26 PM >

_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."


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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:20:25 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I don't think we can make any generalizations about the actions of sadists or abusers (after all, some sadists desire and do things that make some abusers look like child's play).  I happen to think actual sadism is incompatible with actual masochism.  A sadist wants the other person to feel PAIN, not pleasure.  A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Fluffy sadists however, who want the other person to enjoy the pain, works perfect with a masochist.

To me the difference is the motivation and source- is the person doing the action out of a sense of security, ethics?  Or are they doing it out of insecurity and fear? 

http://www.collarchat.com/m_324113/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#324707
Sadism vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_130087/mpage_1/key_sadist%252Cabuse/tm.htm#130087
What is a sadist?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_308357/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#308357
Training and abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_255676/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#255676
Defining Domination v Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_224182/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#224182
Ms/Ds is it a license to abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_177013/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#177013
Discipline or abuse?

http://www.collarchat.com/m_142096/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#142096
Abuse vs discipline

http://www.collarchat.com/m_131849/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#131849
Abuse disguised as dominance

http://www.collarchat.com/m_123045/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#123045
Overuse of "Abuse"

http://www.collarchat.com/m_47262/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#47262
Physical Abuse of a slave

http://www.collarchat.com/m_41029/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#41029
SM vs Abuse

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1874/mpage_1/key_abuse/tm.htm#1874
BDSM versus Abuse



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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:20:53 PM   
MissyRane


Posts: 1032
Joined: 5/11/2005
Status: offline 		hmm very good question, I've been wondering this a lot myself..I guess safe sane consensual means that there will be no permanent marks or damage..except maybe permanent marks with a mutual agreement? And abuse is the rest

< Message edited by MissyRane -- 4/26/2006 1:28:52 PM >

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:22:29 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The thread package has been done to death.  But soft, for some fresh insight, we shall see... 

Safe sane consensual abuse is kinda like this:

Honey I am home, can I beat you tonight and wipe the house with you?

OK, honey....

What's for dinner???..........Jesus H CHRIST??!!?? Have you seen Wally's report card.......WTF is wrong with that kid?

Ron (kinda like that)

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:31:58 PM   
Reasonable


Posts: 459
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline 		Abuse= something you won't accept willingly.

SSC = feel good buzzwords created as a way to dumb down "wiitwd" with the nilla world-and newbies.

< Message edited by Reasonable -- 4/26/2006 1:32:55 PM >

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:36:11 PM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline 		Fairly simple for me.
1. I don't do the SSC mantra.
2. Abuse includes a predator and a victim instead of willing participants.

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IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:39:29 PM   
Phoenixandnika


Posts: 748
Joined: 4/22/2005
From: Aberdeen Maryland
Status: offline
What do you mean you don't do the safe, sane, consensual montra?
 
~curiously~
 
Nika{Phoenix}


_____________________________

"Life is neither a bed of roses nor a carpet of thorns, it's just what you make of it."



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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:43:33 PM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		I don't follow the whole safe, sane and consensual philosophy because the terms are relative to the person using them and therefore not consistent. I prefer to follow the RACK line of thought, although that is not without its imperfections also. It comes mcuh closer though in my mind to being sure that informed decisions are being made.

As for differentiating what we do from abuse. Abuse is anything done by one person to another that is in violation of that person's consent or with ill intent or without regard to their emotional or physical safety...but that is just my definition.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 4/26/2006 1:49:15 PM >

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:46:12 PM   
proudsub


Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline 		I would define abuse as any nonconsensual activity that causes physical or emotional harm.

I would define "safe, sane and consensual" as limiting yourself to activities of which:
1. You have enough knowledge to perform safely. To me this means not doing anything that will casue damage to one's health or well-being above what is planned in the activity. (For example branding will leave a permanent scar but that was planned, if it burns someone beyond what is planned then it was done unsafely)
2. You perform only with agreement of all parties.
3. You  perform only when of sound mind (for example when not under the influence of a mind altering substance or excessive anger).

I think defining "sane" is the tough one here because many people would say that a lot of what we do isn't sane in their book.
.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan


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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 1:57:09 PM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika
What do you mean you don't do the safe, sane, consensual montra?
~curiously~
Nika{Phoenix}
 
It's not my motto. It's somebody else's motto that they made for their purposes, and some other people adopted it. I didn't adopt it. I apply SSC to my life just as much as apply the boy scout motto to my life. They might be great mottos. But they're not mine.
If someone says they won't play with me because I don't adhere to SSC, I simply reply "Ok, thanks anyway."
Personally, if I were going to adopt a motto, I'd be closer to adopting the boy scout motto than SSC. I think SSC is too broadly defined and vague, as is the group of people who are using it.
And "sane" is a legal word, not a medical/psychological word. People aren't diagnosed as "insane". It's a term used in a courtroom, not a hospital. I can't adopt a motto with a legal definition when half the play I do is inconsistent with the laws of the state I live in (i.e. assault, battery, etc..) Nor is half the play I do "safe" according to the definition of safe.
It's simply not my motto and it doesn't apply to my life or the people I play with.
Which is ok. Because I have my ethics & morals to keep me in line, better than an acronym ever could anyway.  :)


_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 2:15:11 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		Many of the activities in BDSM whether consensual or not are illegal  in several countries and someone asking to be abused would probably not be an adequate defence for the abuser so the idea of SSC is really an informal agreement between two people. As for definitions, that is going to vary between any two partners or players and has little value beyond them. Boundaries and limits vary so SSC is inevitably relative to the people involved. I use the term abuser because that is how prosecution authorities would view the person metering out the any physical or psychological violence.

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 3:02:28 PM   
VvShadowspawnvV


Posts: 218
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
"Nor is half the play I do "safe" according to the definition of safe.
It's simply not my motto and it doesn't apply to my life or the people I play with.
Which is ok. Because I have my ethics & morals to keep me in line, better than an acronym ever could anyway.  :)"
 
*applause*
 
becca

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 3:22:48 PM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Sorry LuckyAlbatross, but I have to disagree with you here. For myself, there is no real pleasure in pain. I don't feel any pleasure from a whipping, a flogging, or a caning, etc. Just pain. Pure, mind wretching, uninhibited, searing pain. It does not arouse me sexually, it does not put me in subspace; it does however, let me know that I am alive, and that I can feel.  
 
Now, in question to the OP and how do Chris and I distinguish what we do from it being abuse. I am not going to say consent, because there have been times that I have wanted him to stop and he just kept going, knowing that I could go further. I am going to say that for me, it becomes abuse when it stops being fun; and when I stop feeling.
Of course, this is just my own personal view on it

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~~@ cass @~~

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 6:12:22 PM   
TedEbear


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixandnika

If they vary how does one define what is safe, sane and consensual for "them"?

I would like to get individual definitions of safe, sane, and consensual.

Nika {Phoenix}




What is safe? The domme is even tempered, not drunk or wasted. She is skilled in the safe use of the tools of her trade.

What is sane? Activities that won't hospitalize the submissive, including permanently injure or cripple, or attract the attention of the authorities.

What is consensual? The domme does not violate my hard limits or hers.



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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 6:28:44 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		I don't do SSC. I don't believe in it. Since it is, as you point out in your post, so varied from one person to the next, what is the point of using it as a mantra? I believe in doing what is comfortable (or uncomfortable) for me, when I (or my partner) wish to do it. I'm the only one who knows when it isn't okay or consensual.

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 6:31:43 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

quote:

A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Sorry LuckyAlbatross, but I have to disagree with you here. For myself, there is no real pleasure in pain. I don't feel any pleasure from a whipping, a flogging, or a caning, etc. Just pain. Pure, mind wretching, uninhibited, searing pain. It does not arouse me sexually, it does not put me in subspace; it does however, let me know that I am alive, and that I can feel.  
 
Now, in question to the OP and how do Chris and I distinguish what we do from it being abuse. I am not going to say consent, because there have been times that I have wanted him to stop and he just kept going, knowing that I could go further. I am going to say that for me, it becomes abuse when it stops being fun; and when I stop feeling.
Of course, this is just my own personal view on it


Then you aren't a masochist and LA's point does not apply to you. A masochist is someone who derives sexual gratification from pain or physical abuse (not emotional/mental/physical abuse, but an abusing of the body). I understand what you mean by saying you can feel something when your body is in pain, but I wouldn't call that feeling masochistic. Many SI'ers have that same reaction.

_____________________________

"Time travel: It's a cornocopia of disturbing concepts." ~Ron Stoppable

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 7:00:17 PM   
dorsaisgirl1


Posts: 156
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		safe would mean that the other person has taken into acount the things that could go wrong and has limited as much as posible the chances that injury outside of what both partys has agreed to would happen.

sane meaning that the person is not mentaly dysfunctional or under the influince of mind altering substances.


consensual meaning the people involved have agreed at some point in time weather it was at the very begining of there relationship or everytime they play as to how things will be or that they are not being held against there will being made to do things that they dont wont to do.


r.a.c.k       risk       aware    consensual      kink      means they know the risks and are consenting to kinky activeitys .

abuse is not consensual i would also guess that for the victom its not kinky or pleasureable abuse in my book is like stealing
 
these are my definitions others definitions may very from person to person but in both ssc and rack there is consent .  

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/26/2006 7:29:45 PM   
MichMasochist


Posts: 234
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

quote:

A masochist feels pain AS pleasure.

Sorry LuckyAlbatross, but I have to disagree with you here. For myself, there is no real pleasure in pain. I don't feel any pleasure from a whipping, a flogging, or a caning, etc. Just pain. Pure, mind wretching, uninhibited, searing pain. It does not arouse me sexually, it does not put me in subspace; it does however, let me know that I am alive, and that I can feel.  
 
Now, in question to the OP and how do Chris and I distinguish what we do from it being abuse. I am not going to say consent, because there have been times that I have wanted him to stop and he just kept going, knowing that I could go further. I am going to say that for me, it becomes abuse when it stops being fun; and when I stop feeling.
Of course, this is just my own personal view on it


Then you aren't a masochist and LA's point does not apply to you. A masochist is someone who derives sexual gratification from pain or physical abuse (not emotional/mental/physical abuse, but an abusing of the body). I understand what you mean by saying you can feel something when your body is in pain, but I wouldn't call that feeling masochistic. Many SI'ers have that same reaction.


I would hafta disagree Tikkiee is a masochist of a different flavor.  Myself, like her, I get no sexual gratification, arrousal, excetera from pain, humiliation, or degredation, in and of it's self.  It is more from the loss of control to the woman.  Of being helplessly at her mercy as she takes cruel enjoyment in causing me to suffer.  Of being forced to, and I'll say it, sexually explioted by her for her personal gratification.

Of course subspace is it's own reward in and of it's self, but the loss of control is the essential point.  It's the pain, humiliation, degradation, that drives the point home that she has power over me.  It's like when a certain domme grabs my balls and squeezes, it's not sexual and I get no pleasure from the pain.  It is about she has control and the power to do that and all I can do is beg.

I feel, I feel alive.

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/27/2006 12:32:14 PM   
BeachMystress


Posts: 2156
Joined: 4/3/2004
From: Naples Island- Long Beach CA - Southern California
Status: offline
I just wanted to mention an organization who claims to help those in abusive alternative relationships extricate themselves. http://www.immediatefamily.org/ The site sounds good and I think it is a valuable service to the community.

_____________________________

Beach Mystress
*Do not threaten the weak. Intimidate the strong. ~ Stevenson*
http://beachmystress.jigsy.com
http://www.flickr.com/photos/beachmystress/

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RE: how do you define safe, sane, consensual, and abuse? - 4/27/2006 3:47:41 PM   
TedEbear


Posts: 35
Joined: 4/21/2006
Status: offline 		Might have potential. But I'd be just as leery of them as I would of some woman on the net offering pro sessions.

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