quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

Original: rml

"Clearly there was a tremendous amount of grass-roots energy building — a grass-roots prairie fire that was building in intensity," Law, now the Crossroads president, said in an interview. "We felt that one of the things we could do was pour gasoline on that." 

Now shall we talk about what Crossroads is and who they are funded by?

No.

In your mind, there seems to be no difference between:

1) a political organization deciding that they can make hay out of an issue, and then going and paying for professional "activists" and union members to protest at an event, or against a person, bused in from outside the district, to conduct a protest that would not otherwise exist.  Such a protest would never have existed without the funding and the planning of the political organization.

2) a political organization that sees a rising tide of discontent and local protests, by people who have rarely if ever been politically energized, and whose desires for change mirrors many of their own concerns, and decide to assist by funding.  The protests, and the discontent existed before the decision to support it and fund it.

One is an "astro-turf" and you buddy Rahm is an acknowledged master of it.

The other is a "grassroots" movement, that has gained traction and support, and may turn into an organization, or organizations with a permanent political impact.

You see the difference?

Firm

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, I will agree that it was started as a grassroots movement, but it was quickly co-opted by Dick Armey and Rick Scott to campaign against health care reform.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And now it is being used by different corporate interests to advance their goals while you merrily skip down the yellow brick road they have laid out for you.

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Ok, now you are going to make me hijack my own thread and, even worse, have to agree with Willbeur.

How is it we "got no say in any of it"?

Why do you expect a father to be responsible for the child he produces but insist that it is only your decision whether to have the child?

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Yes, I will agree that it was started as a grassroots movement, but it was quickly co-opted by Dick Armey and Rick Scott to campaign against health care reform.

Well, that's a major point.  You finally acknowledge that it at least started as a true grassroots movement, and not an astro-turf operation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And now it is being used by different corporate interests to advance their goals while you merrily skip down the yellow brick road they have laid out for you.

Perhaps.  Your lefty "corporate interests are all evil and need to be punished" bias is showing now, however.

All "successful" grassroots movement morph into more regularized and official organizations or movements.  They become part of "the institutions of society".

You just don't like the part of society, and the concepts that they espouse.

Fair enough. We can argue those concepts whenever you want (and whenever I have the interest).

Firm

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Ok, now you are going to make me hijack my own thread and, even worse, have to agree with Willbeur.

How is it we "got no say in any of it"?

Why do you expect a father to be responsible for the child he produces but insist that it is only your decision whether to have the child?

Do you have the right to force a woman to have the child?

Do you have the right to force her to have an abortion?

What risks do you assume in either decision?

Do you know the risks a woman faces when deciding?

Why do we expect you to be responsible? Because you are, if not for your seed, there would be no child. But until that child is viable outside of the womb, its our possession, and ours alone. A woman may ask the father for advice, bring him in on her wishes, talk to him and ask what he wants... but ultimately, its her decision.

You have no say.

quote:

Gee, and who let us implant that seed?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It isnt how it works.

Guess what?

You guys dont like how it works?

Two options... change it.... lol

or keep it in your pants.

As i have stated before, all it takes is a little snip snip.

Until the child reaches the age of viability within the womb, it is considered part of her body.

quote:

Gee, and who let us implant that seed?

I like this part of your thinking. Assumptions, yet again, are dangerous.

Is it your contention sex should only be for procreation?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

So you would force a woman to have a child, then demand a paternity test ot prove you are the father. What if you are not? Again, until the age of viability, the laws are on her side, medicine is on her side. The baby cannot live outside of untero.

Frozen embryos have changed the face of all these. A man can deny her access to those even though they are half hers.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, it is my contention that you are trying to portray women as some sort of victims of a man's sexual drives rather than as active participants.

You want to have it both ways.

"It's my decision, but when I decide it is your responsibility".

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ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

And how about the other side of the coin, when the man doesn't want to her to have an abortion?

Is that not his child also?

When we start, as a group, as men to take care of the responsibilities that we have as the Fathers of children then we can start opening out pie holes about this issue. As it stands now not many men want to live to that level of responsibility so I can't sit here and try to tell a woman what to do with her body. Why do you suppose that she makes that decision in the first place? Just placing our names as a Leader or Master doesn't make us responsible. We have to DO THE job a well......

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ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

No, it is my contention that you are trying to portray women as some sort of victims of a man's sexual drives rather than as active participants.

You want to have it both ways.

"It's my decision, but when I decide it is your responsibility".

Hell must have frozen over.

I agree with rml.

Firm