RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/5/2010 10:30:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Everyone in here has to live on a budget. Why should cities, towns, states or the feds be any differant?
Thats simple Pops,and I know this might be tough for you to wrap your head around....but the feds,states,cities and towns at times need to build,establish and create things,infrastructure and programs that have a shelf life and benifits that stretch beyond the next paycheck.
So at times the cost of these things will in large part be borne by the next generation.....which in turn will build,cunstruct or create things or infrastucture that will benifit suceeding generations.
Government is not like running your household....and it is simplistic to the nth dehree to suggest that it should be done so as if it is.


Mike, I'll say this s-l-o-wl-y, that's what the Municipal Bond Market is for.
You can float bonds for major infrastructure projects and still stay within your budget.




truckinslave -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/5/2010 10:36:38 PM)

Checkmate in one ( I expect a weak move to try to separate federal spending.)




Hippiekinkster -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/5/2010 10:44:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Everyone in here has to live on a budget. Why should cities, towns, states or the feds be any differant?
Thats simple Pops,and I know this might be tough for you to wrap your head around....but the feds,states,cities and towns at times need to build,establish and create things,infrastructure and programs that have a shelf life and benifits that stretch beyond the next paycheck.
So at times the cost of these things will in large part be borne by the next generation.....which in turn will build,cunstruct or create things or infrastucture that will benifit suceeding generations.
Government is not like running your household....and it is simplistic to the nth dehree to suggest that it should be done so as if it is.


Mike, I'll say this s-l-o-wl-y, that's what the Municipal Bond Market is for.
You can float bonds for major infrastructure projects and still stay within your budget.
In other words, BORROW AND SPEND. Pass the burden on to the next generations. That's the exact same brilliant financing strategy that the Repubs used to fuck the country in the first place. [sm=gaah.gif]




FirmhandKY -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/5/2010 11:35:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

In other words, BORROW AND SPEND. Pass the burden on to the next generations. That's the exact same brilliant financing strategy that the Repubs used to fuck the country in the first place. [sm=gaah.gif]

No, that's called living within your means, and the intelligent and responsible use of debt.

Firm




Musicmystery -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 7:41:06 AM)

Please explain that to Republicans, who don't seem to get it.

Until leaders and citizens face up to reality, that if fiscal balance is the goal, it will take more tax dollars, spending cuts, fewer services, eliminating continual dependence on borrowing, aggressive debt servicing, and the realization that all of this will slow the economy substantially for the years it takes to achieve it.

Instead, votes are bought with pieces and half-truths, on all sides, with policies that continually worsen the problem instead.





TreasureKY -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 8:31:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Please explain that to Republicans, who don't seem to get it.

Until leaders and citizens face up to reality, that if fiscal balance is the goal, it will take more tax dollars, spending cuts, fewer services, eliminating continual dependence on borrowing, aggressive debt servicing, and the realization that all of this will slow the economy substantially for the years it takes to achieve it.

Instead, votes are bought with pieces and half-truths, on all sides, with policies that continually worsen the problem instead.


I'm sorry, but I don't know how you can claim this is solely a Republican issue.  I've yet to see a Democrat espouse anything even close to demonstrating an understanding of this.  It honestly sounds more like a Republican ideology.




Musicmystery -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 8:39:57 AM)

Sentence one is a retort to Firm.

The rest, yes, absolutely, addresses ALL parties. You ignored the "on all sides" part.

It only comes up in Republican context because they (especially the Teas) are crowing this is their mandate, that others don't get it.

They--and the others--all full of shit. Nothing in the "new" platforms is going to change this.

If it's what voters are truly concerned about, then at some point, we'll all have to come to grips with reality. Stuff costs money.

But voters want it both ways, so we continue this see-saw dance.

All this partisan bull is just that--bull.

Until leaders and citizens face up to reality, that if fiscal balance is the goal, it will take more tax dollars, spending cuts, fewer services, eliminating continual dependence on borrowing, aggressive debt servicing, and the realization that all of this will slow the economy substantially for the years it takes to achieve it.

Instead, votes are bought with pieces and half-truths, on all sides, with policies that continually worsen the problem instead.




mnottertail -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 8:48:21 AM)

It may well be a republican lip service, but has yet to be raised to a level of ideology in my lifetime.




Musicmystery -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 8:52:46 AM)

Especially the reality of more tax dollars, eliminating continued dependence on borrowing, aggressive debt service, and that it will substantially slow the economy for the years it takes to accomplish.

Instead, they keep chanting "just cut taxes," making it ever worse.

Not long term thinkers. Voters get rid of anyone thinking ahead.

Instead--the candy of what can't logically happen.





tazzygirl -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 8:54:14 AM)

Perhaps thinking only as far forward as the next election .... and their bank accounts.




rulemylife -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 9:00:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Malkinius

Greetings Ken....

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Darrel Issa
http://news.google.com/news/search?pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=darrell+issa+subpoena


To use the first link on your link and quote the beginning of the Washington Post article at http://news.cnet.com/8301-17852_3-20021291-71.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=Crave

"Democrats predict that Issa and other GOP leaders would follow former committee chairman Dan Burton's policy during the Clinton years - let a thousand subpeonas bloom - and would bury the Obama administration in an avalanche of subpoenas and hearings.

But Issa, while planning to double his investigators if he becomes chairman, went out of his way recently to tell reporters that a subpoena tsunami is "not my plan at all" - as long as the Democrats "work with us.""

So....nope....no immediate plans to do so according to your own source; just partisan predictions.



No immediate plans to do so unless the Democrats fail to do what we want.

You cannot even call that a veiled threat, it's pretty blatant.






TreasureKY -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 9:07:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Sentence one is a retort to Firm.

The rest, yes, absolutely, addresses ALL parties.

It only comes up in Republican context because they (especially the Teas) are crowing this is their mandate, that others don't get it.

They--and the others--all full of shit. Nothing in the "new" platforms is going to change this.

If it's what voters are truly concerned about, then at some point, we'll all have to come to grips with reality. Stuff costs money.

But voters want it both ways, so we continue this see-saw dance.


I don't disagree that voters appear to want it both ways, and we're likely not going to see much, if any, change in Washington.  But don't you think it is a sight better that at least some are publicly saying we need to make the necessary sacrifices?

Yes, stuff costs money. 

So what do you, personally, do when your budget it tight?  A lot of people I know look at eliminating some of the luxuries that they are already paying for.  They make sacrifices and adjust to buying a bit less of even the necessities.  They evaluate every item by asking if it is truly a need or a want.  They avoid taking on any new responsibilities.

Then again, there are those who just start living on credit expecting to figure out how to pay for it later.  They continue to buy what they want, having convinced themselves that their wants really are a necessity.  They wouldn't consider taking a step back... that wouldn't be progress.  The idea of downsizing isn't even considered, convinced as they are that if they just persevere that things will get better all on their own. 

The problem is, while their is some truth to the idea that you have to spend money to make money, it doesn't work so well when you invest so much in the future that you cannot afford the present. 




EternalHoH -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 9:28:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I would hate to see a check written out to CA to solve their 20 billion dollar deficit problem. That state made that mess, they should clean it up.




Here's the part of the equation you are not seeing. In fact, its the part that most conservatives NEVER acknowledge.

The people who are owed money by the State of California hedged against any potential losses in the Wall Street casino. You know, free markets and all that, deregulation at its finest. 

So that 20 billion in debt is actually magnified (probably greater than 100 billion) for the ponzi scheme operators on Wall St. And guess who now owns the bank that ran the lion's share of that ponzi scheme?  That's right, you, the taxpayer.

Can the feds force the state to pass austerity budgets?  Not according to all the 'states rights' folks.  That's way beyond the power of the federal government. Yet the feds (and by extension, you the taxpayer) are indeed the 'payor of record' for a magnified loss from all that bogus 'insurance' that is far greater than the state's own 20 billion mess.

Conservatives *will* be forced to acknowledge it now, since they control the purse strings. Boehner *will* be the person to write that check to bail them out .....  errr, buy up those bets on California's solvency made by an unregulated private sector as "toxic assets".





Musicmystery -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 9:52:10 AM)

What I DON'T do is cut my income at the same time.

Businesses, for example, can't cut themselves to prosperity. Yes, they can boost productivity and help the bottom line for a quarter or two, but without growth and long term plans, without adapting to market realities, no amount of blaming government or the economy will help. Markets change, and smart businesses change with them.

While I'm doing well, I actually DID make changes at home, back in the Bush era when I could see the structural problems coming (especially petroleum and the cost of produce for me personally--I own my home outright). That's when I really got serious about my orchards, vineyards, and gardens. I've invested heavily in time developing new approaches to my work that keeps me home more--and saves money for others too (like any good business person). And I built new structures designed at better insulation, cutting my heating bills by more than half.

But cutting as a permanent solution just doesn't work. Now what, when costs rise further one day? What about necessary repairs--auto, home, grounds, and health, all of which come when they come? That's why I've been an aggressive saver, getting closer and closer to a point where have the capital to live independent of economic swings as much as realistically possible. But I also keep looking at other possibilities, more options, more opportunities. Instead of whining about economic conditions and blaming whichever party I don't like for them, I change with the times. Tight credit suddenly meant that borrowing to further expand the orchard would mean rates higher than I'm willing to pay (I have excellent credit, and interest rates are at historic lows, so the rate hikes are bullshit). So I scaled back plans, dipped into my savings instead a bit, and aggressively retire older debt (at low rates, but I just don't trust these assholes anymore). Meanwhile my retirement savings and timber lots continue to grow. Grow. Not just cut. And my income jumped a bit too--not a lot (4%), but higher than inflation anyway.

And I CAN'T just cut for the sake of cutting. I can't just say "I'm paying less for electricity now." Instead, I would have to actually reduce consumption, AND be willing to reduce it still further when rates rise. That's just not feasible (and already I only pay $70/month). I've never bought cable or a cell phone, and I drive a small, fuel-efficient car. Again, cuts only go so far.

So the "household argument" is inherently flawed, as it's a very partial picture. That's not all.

Some cuts would be costly. To eliminate SS, for instance, means returning to the economic problems we had before we added SS. Same with Medicare/Medicaid. And there's the problem of missing funding. We in fact pay, in full, for our SS benefits (factor in inflation and modest returns), each of us. That the government used the money for something else doesn't mean there's a SS crisis--it means there's a "borrowed and now they want it back" crisis. After all, all those baby boomers had kids, and the population of the U.S. has tripled in my lifetime. Funds are there. The cutting rhetoric, though, ignores the consequences for cutting programs (especially long term programs).

Other cuts are long overdue, but politically protected--yes, absolutely by your darling Republicans as well as Democrats. We have absurdly high military spending, including on things the Pentagon neither needs nor wants, simply because they are made in somebody's district. We support corn like it's manna, even though it's not at all an efficient crop (nor a necessary one), because the corn lobby is huge and powerful (we don't need corn syrup or the many other uses).

And real problems loom. While health care rhetoric is high, we simply can't do nothing, as it's spirally in double digits and has for quite a while. Businesses can't afford the increases, and insurers will drop more and more people. Yes, the current plan is convoluted, but it's something. Republicans want to "replace" it by getting rid of it piece by piece. It's long term insanity--it must be dealt with, by whatever plan, not ignored.

What's happening instead on the Republican side is using half-truths to buy their agenda--bottom line tax cuts, good times or bad, the economy be damned. Sure, Democrats too have theirs, especially on global trade issues, where they are both trying to placate unions and protectionist sentiment while facing the reality of the importance of free trade in a global marketplace (and protectionism in a world of multi-national corporations is just silly---they'd simply produce in friendlier countries).

Bottom line, if you're hoping for fiscal sanity, you're not backing a winning horse. There will be much rhetoric and posturing, followed by appropriations for the things they knew they'd need but didn't want to admit by putting it in the budget--like Bush did repeatedly with war funding.

And nothing about this resembles sanely managing a household.

Or a country for the long term.




slvemike4u -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 9:59:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Checkmate in one ( I expect a weak move to try to separate federal spending.)
Actually right....but certainly not weak.




Musicmystery -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 10:02:29 AM)

quote:

You can float bonds for major infrastructure projects and still stay within your budget.


Unless (1) you're in a tight credit market and (2) your state/county/city has a crappy rating due to your fiscal woes, including (3) too much debt.

And by the way.... (4) debt service gets added to your budget.

Welcome to reality.






TreasureKY -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 10:33:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

While I'm doing well, I actually DID make changes...


So what makes the Government so special that it is exempt from doing similar?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

... Other cuts are long overdue, but politically protected--yes, absolutely by your darling Republicans as well as Democrats. We have absurdly high military spending, including on things the Pentagon neither needs nor wants, simply because they are made in somebody's district. We support corn like it's manna, even though it's not at all an efficient crop (nor a necessary one), because the corn lobby is huge and powerful (we don't need corn syrup or the many other uses).


And those cuts will never be made until they are forced to be made.

I don't disagree that there are problems on both sides.  But I don't trust either one to admit to or even attempt to fix those problems.  I don't view Government as benevolent... they aren't just going to, out of the goodness of their hearts, give up their pet projects and perks.

If they had less power to extort money out of the people when they want to, what choice would they have, though? 

Unfortunately, with less than honorable people at the helm, I can see the needed programs being cut while the pork is continued.  That, or they'll just keep spending on everything with credit.

I see the Government like a spoiled child.  He's run through his modest allowance and rather than take the steps necessary to reduce his spending, he just asks for more.  He makes excuses for his excesses, spins grains of truth to his advantage, and insists that that he'll do better.

So... you give him the benefit of the doubt.  Raise his allowance just a bit hoping he'll learn to spend more wisely in the future.  Except he doesn't.  He just finds new ways to spend beyond what he is allowed and then demands more.  This time he holds his breath and makes threats that you'll be sorry if he doesn't get what he wants.

Does a good parent acquiesce to the child's demands?  Continually give "second chances" in hopes they'll reform?

Or does a good parent put his foot down and say enough is enough?  Perhaps even reduce the allowance until they learn to be more responsible?

The problem is things have gotten topsy-turvy here.  The roles have been reversed in that now our child, the Government, thinks it is the boss.  It is no longer here to service us... to facilitate our life, liberty and pursuit of happiness, we're here to service and facilitate it.

Our Government was given a role... a job to do.  Over the years, the Government has expanded that role.  They've been like that employee who offers to take on extra duties in tough times, then turns around and demands co-ownership.  They've nurtured the idea that they are indispensable, that you couldn't live without them.

Problem is, there are a lot people here who'd just as soon let 'em.  They don't want the responsibility.  They don't want to be responsible for themselves, even.

Well, a lot of people say "screw that".  The money I make is mine.  I worked for it.  Why should I have to scrimp and do without just so some Senator can have a lifelong retirement with benefits?  Why should I share the product of my sweat and tears with someone who can't keep their legs closed long enough to stop popping out more babies than they can afford?  Why should the fruit of my labor be taken away from me so that some axe-murderer has a fully stocked work-out facility and law library at his disposal?  Why should my carefully financial planning be scrapped so that I can be responsible for the medical bills for someone who couldn't bother to plan for themselves?  Why should I have to sacrifice so that some "artist" can create a piece of work that not only insults me and my beliefs, but that I wouldn't be caught dead even looking at?

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera... ad infinitum.

And I can't help agreeing with that sentiment a little bit.  Personally, I don't mind paying taxes mostly... I think as a community we all have a responsibility locally to chip in to pay for things like roads, police protection and fire service.  On a national level I don't mind paying taxes to promote trade and provide for national security. 

But I do have a problem when Government starts seeing itself as the great equalizer, protector and provider.

And above the people it was formed to represent.

Slight correction... they are not my darling Republicans.  I am a conservative American.  I vote for who I feel will best represent me, regardless of their party affiliation.




truckinslave -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 10:34:23 AM)

quote:

Until leaders and citizens face up to reality, that if fiscal balance is the goal, it will take more tax dollars, spending cuts, fewer services, eliminating continual dependence on borrowing, aggressive debt servicing, and the realization that all of this will slow the economy substantially for the years it takes to achieve it.


Or we can just cut spending until the budget is balanced and let moderate inflation and economic growth reduce the effectual size of the deficit.




Musicmystery -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 10:38:20 AM)

First, you've attributed several thoughts to me erroneously. Don't do that. I'll say it if I think so.

Second, you've only repeated the problem I posted about earlier--your partial chip-at-it approach is not a solution, but instead a perpetuation of the same problem, one that's been repeated for thirty years now.

What you have here is an expression of your thoughts and attitudes. OK.

But it's not a solution. And it never will be.

Simple reality, as explained earlier.


[Incidentally, the "spoiled child," if you must use that, is the voters, not the government. THEY are the ones perpetuating this. Unless, like truck, you believe in magic.]





truckinslave -> RE: What you DIDN'T vote for... (11/6/2010 10:43:45 AM)

quote:

Boehner *will* be the person to write that check to bail them out ...


Not if he wants reelected he won't.
California has doubled down on stupid and will pay the price.
Look, if they decertified all public sector unions, cut pay of state employees 20%, reduced # of state employees 20%, cut retirement benefits to a 5% IRA match, cut spending on all the crap states spend money on, and convinced me they were aggressively cutting thepermitting and regulation of businesses so that, say, oil refineries were being courted, and allowed offshore drilling, then maybe reasonable people could conclude that they deserved a federal loan to help them out of the mess.
Until then, dude, I just don't think they see the problem. And they're on their own.
but, look on the bright side. They have moonbeam.




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