quote:

The analogy though... a great deal of Intel processors at least get made in Ireland or Israel, and the workers are paid handsomely for their skills. It's a model of international business. No seriously, it's a model of international business, we're talking in university textbooks and Forbes Magazine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nslavu

Well, that is a reason, just not an explanation of why he deserves to paid better than the maintenance guy who cleans the stadium washrooms 48 hours a week, works his ass off for the team that is making billions as well but because of arbitrary status notions he is somehow less worthy monetarily even though his work is as necessary to the overall wealth of the team. Without him the place stinks and deteriorates and the basketball player is playing in shit. I would also note that maintenance people and stadium staff are the majority of employees in this enterprise, while the basketball player is in the minority... yet somehow the minority is again ruling the dispersal of wealth and power. A smaller dynamic than world matters but still much the same.

Reasons are sometimes useful but rarely justifiable.

quote:

I think you're buying into hierarchal lies here. Try to explain why a genius is worth more in life to someone who is disabled in any sense of that word. I'm sure some parents of disabled and certainly some disabled people would get a bit of rise out of the explanation. You see it's about worth, not sameness and indeed not about interchangeability, you're right about that. The diversity of humanity shouldn't relate to any 'one' being less worthy.

quote:

In the present system I would tend to agree but it is the system we are talking about here and how fucked up it is. The system is responsible for the way you portray the your choices above. Let me put it this way. Assuming that you have some belief that all men are created equal, if you had two choices to be either 1st class citizen or second class citizen, no strings attached, it is mere choice, would you think that 6.6 billion people would choose to be second class citizens? Not likely. I might be inclined to grant that somewhere around half of the population 'might' choose poverty and second class status, but I have my doubts. Again the system doesn't allow for this choice, it funnels you, all of us, based on conditions relative to caste, class, status among many other things, depending on what part of the world you live in. You are in fact created unequal and unworthy in this system.

quote:

Quite possibly. I am inclined to think more numbed than comfortable. The fact that any one has to make major sacrifices on a planet that has plenty of wealth, and plenty of resources for all, but doesn't disperse the wealth and resources with that knowledge is mind boggling. Even more so that it's been pretty much the same for going on 5600 years.

quote:

There are billions of people who work far harder than Bill Gates ever did or ever will. Gates lucked out, right place right time within a system that favors some luck, ... not in a system that favors human 'worth' in any way. So, he is doubly lucky but still a mere human, no different than you or I. Sub par effort is an issue that I would agree with; but I tend to think that of things weren't the way the way the Nobles want it, that people would less frequently succumb to sub par efforts. I think this is more reflective of the frustration inherent within the system than it is of human conditions that would exist if not chained to the Noble Lie.

quote:


I mean that are no real hierarchies or classes of humans in creation, except those that are veiled and enforced by Nobles who think their genes entitle them to a better life. What you're talking about is about not being the same. And indeed we are not the same. We are all unique but no less worthy than any one else.
The 'All Men Are Created Equal' reference is part of the Declaration of Independence. I use that because it (the document) was the closest anyone on this planet ever got to real equality. Even it had a ways to go but it was a big step away from the Noble Lie.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
But go on and have a sook about the wealthy intentionally keeping you down. Likely they give you no more thought than you give to whoever soldered your motherboard together.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"If there were a ruling class in this country, I would be part of it."

Interesting statement. It's been said years ago when a million was worth something that if you took the million from a millionaire and gave it to a pauoper that in a short time the millionaire would've been again rich, and the pauper would again be broke.

I believe this to be true. I know and have known people from quite varied socio-economic strata, and I know the difference is not always depicted accurately in the bank book. Like a card game, sometimes you have taken in no tricks or books, but your hand is full of trump.

One mindset plays with force, sometime reckless force, another plays with economy of force. Look bigger or smaller at will, be whatever you need to be. Take care of business and then let go, don't roll the ball, just get the ball rolling.

Whatever I am now, I was born of working class stock. As such I didn't quite see all I could see and I doubt anyone knows all they can know, let alone everything. However I have memory, tight memory for lack of a better term. It does not want to give up. In computer terms I try to keep alot in RAM, my drive is full enough and fast enough, but maybe the right software could make me a billionaire. Thing is though, I might remember the most minute details of something twenty years ago, and not remember ten minutes ago. I select what to remember, but really the only difference in me is that I know it.

T

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

OK, let's start small, with some definitions:

Critical Thinking (lots of definition if you follow the link): 

Critical Thinking - A complex set of cognitive skills employed in problem-solving and intellectual consideration and innovation. Critical thinking requires mental agility and thoughtful consideration: one must, almost simultaneously, be able to process and then analyze what is being presented, to make connections between various bits of information, to draw inferences from what has been stated directly, to question any assumptions and connections made, and to remain generally skeptical until sufficient proof is offered. Practice in critical thinking is designed to make your mind more powerful. This power is something you can apply to any profession and one of the major benefits of taking a humanities class.

This is from here, but you can lobby for a different definition, if you wish.

Another definition we need to discuss is "the noble lie":

In politics a noble lie is a myth or untruth, often, but not invariably, of a religious nature, knowingly told by an elite to maintain social harmony. The noble lie is a concept originated by Plato as described in The Republic. A noble lie, although it may benefit all parties, is different from a white lie since a white lie does not cause discord if uncovered whereas noble lies are usually of a nature such that they would do so.

Any complaints so far?

Firm

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nslavu

Who was talking about your country? Any America thing in this thread was something another brought up trying to show that sometimes hillbillies hit the big time. It didn't pan out for them as an arguement.

Hm.

Why would a website made by americans, with a user base primarily (though not exclusively) consisting of americans, have people in it under the impression that you were talking to AMERICANS.

quote:


About the world being run by a noble elite that control the information flow, and keep the poor man down.
Americans are just about guaranteed to say "NOT ON YOUR FUCKING LIFE" because we see fools and wise men both, every day, try to improve their situation - and succeed. Whereas slackers of all economic levels tend to lose money.

quote:


And how the hell are we a puppy here?? Wat is this, i don't even

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Ok, then.

1.  What is this "elite" you are talking about?  Can you define it?  Who, specifically belongs to it?  Where did they come from?  Do new members ever arise, or is it only by being born into it that a new member comes into it?  Do members ever renounce their membership, or lose it? What are the specific "markers" that will allow one to determine the membership?

quote:


2. Your definition of the "noble lie" seems to have no positives, only negatives, i.e. "controlling" or "misguiding", and only for the purposes of denying others their "true potential" or their "rights".  Are there any positives?

quote:


3.  What are "everyman's" rights, anyway?  What, exactly are "rights" in your mind?

quote:

ORIGINAL: InvisibleBlack

This pretty much sums it up, in my experience. The "elite" don't spend any of their time trying to maintain some "noble lie" or "repressive system" to keep people down. The truth is, they don't think about you at all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"I mean that are no real hierarchies or classes of humans in creation, except those that are veiled and enforced by Nobles who think their genes entitle them to a better life."

Not agreed, not one iota.

T

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The explanation is that the plumber is more easily replaced than the star player.

quote:


There are what, maybe 1,000 men in the US who are able to compete adequately in professional basketball at that level.


How many plumbers are there?

quote:


I do not understand this concept "worth more in life" - it sounds more philosophical than functional.
Stephen Hawking is an excellent example of physical disability being set aside, but for those who don't have his level of genius, it is a harsh fact of life that someone with a severe physical or mental disability will have difficulty finding a line of work he or she can live off of.

quote:

In the present system I would tend to agree but it is the system we are talking about here and how fucked up it is. The system is responsible for the way you portray the your choices above. Let me put it this way. Assuming that you have some belief that all men are created equal, if you had two choices to be either 1st class citizen or second class citizen, no strings attached, it is mere choice, would you think that 6.6 billion people would choose to be second class citizens? Not likely. I might be inclined to grant that somewhere around half of the population 'might' choose poverty and second class status, but I have my doubts. Again the system doesn't allow for this choice, it funnels you, all of us, based on conditions relative to caste, class, status among many other things, depending on what part of the world you live in. You are in fact created unequal and unworthy in this system.



Beyond that, there's no "no strings attached" choice here. There are always strings attached, choices have consequences.

quote:

Quite possibly. I am inclined to think more numbed than comfortable. The fact that any one has to make major sacrifices on a planet that has plenty of wealth, and plenty of resources for all, but doesn't disperse the wealth and resources with that knowledge is mind boggling. Even more so that it's been pretty much the same for going on 5600 years.

Who, exactly, would be the one "dispersing" the wealth and resources? Unless Jesus is going to come back and do some proper magic tricks, nobody has the authority.

quote:

There are billions of people who work far harder than Bill Gates ever did or ever will. Gates lucked out, right place right time within a system that favors some luck, ... not in a system that favors human 'worth' in any way. So, he is doubly lucky but still a mere human, no different than you or I. Sub par effort is an issue that I would agree with; but I tend to think that of things weren't the way the way the Nobles want it, that people would less frequently succumb to sub par efforts. I think this is more reflective of the frustration inherent within the system than it is of human conditions that would exist if not chained to the Noble Lie.

Nah I'm part of the generation who was told we could do anything we wanted with our lives, sky's the limit, etc. I wasn't disheartened or frustrated. I was young and stupid. End of story.

quote:


I use that because it (the document) was the closest anyone on this planet ever got to real equality. Even it had a ways to go but it was a big step away from the Noble Lie.


I get the reference, I'm just not understanding the relevance, especially with one of your previous posts saying "Capitalism and democracy are the greatest fallacies ever created by the Nobles." Yet now the document that enabled those two systems is the "closest anyone on this planet ever got to real equality" - I think I'm missing something.

quote:


And there are most definitely hierarchies of humans in creation. We'll go with one of your examples - critical thinkers and drones. Do these have equal value?

quote:

Critical Thinkers vs Drones

quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

It's interesting to note what Malcolm Gladwell has to say about all of this.

Anyway, Malcolm points out that it's not necessarily economic strata that makes a success story, or even knowledge; idjits can and do succeed.

But it does take a community. "It takes a village to make a hero." He's got a fascinating take on the subject, and one I wholeheartedly endorse. Also worth noting, it's a slant on the view that's quite a bit more mature and well-thought than the op's "noble truth." Tho since he's at the point where he's trying to draw parallels where none exist with the battle cry, "But that's what I was saying!" pointing out the differences is an exercise in frustration.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nslavu

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

The explanation is that the plumber is more easily replaced than the star player.

Plumbers are also far more necessary to a functioning civ. and as such should be paid more. Kill off a few star pro-players and so what. No big deal. But...Kill off a your few plumbers and chaos ensues. Who is more valuable? Replace-ability is universal. The question is who provides more value to the functioning civilization.

How many homes are there that need a plumber compared to how many teams need players. The other side of your coin I think creates more awareness of the situation as it relates to human value.

quote:

Well my point is that is dysfunctional, that the present system of 'worth and value' is dysfunctional and disproportionate to true worth or value. It's not a harsh fact of life either. It's a harsh fact of the present dysfunctional system. When a system changes, the facts, harsh or otherwise change with it.

quote:

Yes, well I think I said as much. [:)]

quote:

Jesus is just an archetypal untruth anyway, so if we're going to use religious lies I'm thinking some kind of Santa would be far more appealing. [:D] Jokes aside, I'm interested in the discussion only, not in solving the entire process. I think eventually there will change; but I doubt that will happen because we shared ideas and discourse on CM... though every mind that is awakened is plus for change.

quote:

How much of this 'stupidity' is allowed and or fostered by the system though ( a system that has been in affect for 5600 yrs mind you)? This system has been providing less than premium education to serfs. The nobles and the wealthy get the premium stuff. The internet has made some dents in this but it's still a long way from where it could be. Again in a different system, different results and or consequences.

quote:


Ok, well the spirit of the Declaration has been all but abrogated. The intention of that document and the people who left Noble Rule in Europe to start anew without the Nobles running their lives, was impeccable. Unfortunately as I said the Nobles got a toe hold early in America and since then an even bigger hold. The document is just a shadow now. The Nobles whether visible or not have never surrendered the wealth, money rules and they have it. Throughout history they have adapted to governments. It hasn't mattered what form of government is in place, they have learned to adapt. They couldn't take down America using force and war, they merely adapted with the government to fit their objectives. And before you cry conspiracy here, remember, money is power, and who has it is the most powerful. Your country like many others are in debt to these people. Debt means they own you, and your country. How they use this debt to control governments is up for debate. The control issue is what I prefer to focus on, not on all the conspiracy crap that could be brought in here.

That document allows for the citizens to take back their government when they see things going amiss. Doing it now, is quite an improbable task because the government is no longer the original intended government.

quote:


Of course they do. Totally equal value. It was never my intention nor implication to say either was any better then the other. This is an assumption made by others. I don't blame them, it's quite human to make judgement either good or bad. Admittedly I could have worded the title better but it seemed rather lengthy to do so and I could have included an explanation in the OP. My bad. Do you know which you are and more importantly why, was my intention, as well as any discussion that evolves from that. In short are you (anyone) aware of your designated place in this system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TotalDiscipline

quote:

Critical Thinkers vs Drones

I get payed to think at work...but many people who claim they are critical thinkers..mostly just complain and never agree with anything.
It is easy to be critical....it is harder to gave a solution.

quote:


and..
reading intellectual books....might learn you something.....doesn't make you a intellectual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

Just ran across this and thought... perfect for this thread...

Critical thinking varies according to the motivation underlying it. When grounded in selfish motives, it is often manifested in the skillful manipulation of ideas in service of one’’s own, or one's groups’’, vested interest. As such it is typically intellectually flawed, however pragmatically successful it might be. When grounded in fair mindedness and intellectual integrity, it is typically of a higher order intellectually, though subject to the charge of "idealism" by those habituated to its selfish use.

Critical thinking of any kind is never universal in any individual; everyone is subject to episodes of undisciplined or irrational thought. Its quality is therefore typically a matter of degree and dependent on , among other things, the quality and depth of experience in a given domain of thinking or with respect to a particular class of questions. No one is a critical thinker through-and-through, but only to such-and-such a degree, with such-and-such insights and blind spots, subject to such-and-such tendencies towards self-delusion. For this reason, the development of critical thinking skills and dispositions is a life-long endeavor.

http://www.criticalthinking.org/aboutCT/definingCT.cfm

Op, the bolded part is for you. [;)]