RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say?

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sunshinemiss -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 4:47:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NuevaVida We both had reasons we needed to move forward very slowly. I began submitting to him, yes, but it came forward in baby steps. We both felt this was (is) something that is going to last - something different than we've experienced before - and felt we had all the time in the world to "get there." What's the hurry, after all? The result is a foundation based on love that we both completely trust. I'm not sure we'd have created the same foundation if he had assumed total authority sooner than he did. We're still under 2 years old. There's still a lot we want to experience together, but are waiting on. The deliberate "slowness" has been significantly effective. Then again, I came from a place of needing to feel emotionally safe. And you don't get that straight out of the starting gate - not at the level we needed, anyway. Thread hijack Hello Nueva Vida - It has been a pleasure (and continues to be) to see the changes in you. I remember when you were so hurt before, and you've come back an continued with such strength of character and positive energy! It is a joy to see. Whatever you're doing is good stuff. Thank you for sharing it with us all. Best, sunshine end hijack

sunshinemiss -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 5:22:47 PM)
For all the posturing and nonsense that is happening on the boards (thank goodness the "hide" button works; I've resorted to it once again), the reality is that life as a woman is not the same as life is as a man. When Margaret Atwood asked what men's greatest fear was about women - What do men fear about women?- men answered "women will laugh at me" while women answered the similar question - What do you fear most about men? - Women said they were afraid that men would kill them. This shows if nothing else that we live in very different perspectives. Men can talk all they want about men being men and being predators and whatever nonsense, but in reality 1 in 3 women is raped in her life. In reality, men still don't understand what date rape is, they still think she should put out if he spends $50 on dinner. Men walk down the street at night and think how peaceful and calm it is and dang it's cold. "I gotta get to where I'm going and get warm." Women think how lonely and dark it is and what is going on behind those trees over there, what was that sound, "I gotta get to safety." Arturas is right that there is a certain "prey" mentality that women must have in order to - no I'm not talking about having fun sex but instead to... wait for it... save our lives! Who the heck wants to be with a date rapist? Geesh. Nothing wrong with playing or having fun on the first date if you feel comfortable. The problem is that the OP did not feel comfortable. If she did, she wouldn't be coming here. At some point she was scared - she ran out of there. We do new folks a disservice when we tell them that it's ok for them to just blindly follow some man who slaps a "dom" label on his ass. Rapists will find new "submissive" women easy prey. You may be a perfectly safe man (I don't know), but many men are unscrupulous and unsafe. The question isn't about whether or not this was a D/S dynamic, the question was in reality, the one she dared not speak... Was he about to rape and abuse me? The answer is YES. He was about to rape and abuse you. How do I know? Because he tricked and lied to her. If he had been with a woman who wanted him, he wouldn't have needed to do that. Men have been taught (at least they were 20 or so years ago) that women will say no when they mean no. That just is not the case so much anymore. Women are taught in health classes, at Take Back the Night Marches, in Women's Studies classes, at college welcome lectures what the difference is between consensual sex and date rape. AND SO ARE MEN. Nothing wrong with a man being a man, wanting what he wants and going after it. Nothing wrong with a woman submitting to her desires. Women need to be clear and say no when she means no. Men need to be clear about that. This is why we women are being hard on the OP. SHE has a responsibility to protect herself. PERIOD. There is no other answer. That means she does not walk down the street at night if she can help it, she doesn't keep her purse open with a wad of cash visible, she doesn't giggle and coo when what she really wants to say is "Leave me alone." My grandfather once told me that locks were made to keep honest men from being tempted. Theives will find a way around the lock. Honest men will say, no it's not worth messing up my own integrity. Same with rapists and good men. A rapist - no matter what euphemism we use - predator, date, dom - is still a rapist. Nothing wrong with a one night stand, playing on the first date, etc. However, there is something very wrong in two ways with the scenario the OP presented - he tricked her. She didn't follow her gut. That's what all this boils down to no matter what nonsense is spewed, no matter how many words we write. He wanted to take from her what she didn't want to give. She put herself in a potentially dangerous situation. Thank goodness she got away. Next time she might not be so lucky. If this is the 3rd time, I'd say she's tempted the Fates quite enough, and it's going to get her. Soon. Let's hope she learns before that. sunshine

DarkSteven -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 6:01:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven Arturas, the rule you violated is that you never punish your sub by doing something she enjoys. That's like punishing an eight year old with ice cream when he breaks a window. So, you are smarting from my last reply and suddenly now I have a rule you force on me and mine? I'll be sure an remember that next time...she is mine, I enjoyed her acting up where she acted up and I punished her as I saw fit. Get over it again. Be well, Arturas Not really a rule so much as common sense, Arturas. You never reward bad behavior. If you want to do it and be different from everyone else, go right ahead. You know, you honestly don't need to tell me to get over something. I'm not smarting from something you said - I simply disagree with your posts. That happens on the Internet sometimes.

sunshinemiss -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 6:51:47 PM)
quote: Men have been taught (at least they were 20 or so years ago) that women will say no when they mean no. That just is not the case so much anymore. Women are taught in health classes, at Take Back the Night Marches, in Women's Studies classes, at college welcome lectures what the difference is between consensual sex and date rape. AND SO ARE MEN. Should read: Men have been taught (at least they were 20 or so years ago) that women will say no when they mean MAYBE. That just is not the case so much anymore. Women are taught in health classes, at Take Back the Night Marches, in Women's Studies classes, at college welcome lectures what the difference is between consensual sex and date rape. AND SO ARE MEN.

DMFParadox -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 6:52:04 PM)
I'm glad you wrote this. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss For all the posturing and nonsense that is happening on the boards (thank goodness the "hide" button works; I've resorted to it once again), the reality is that life as a woman is not the same as life is as a man. Plus 1. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss ... live in very different perspectives. Men walk down the street at night and think how peaceful and calm it is and dang it's cold. "I gotta get to where I'm going and get warm." Women think how lonely and dark it is and what is going on behind those trees over there, what was that sound, "I gotta get to safety." Truth. But not. Men worry about the shadows too; not as much. But more importantly... Men see women act frightened of them. I dress nicely, am clean cut and I'm told extremely good looking. But I see women walk to the other side of the street if they see me coming, they're alone, and I'm alone. Further. I instinctively veer off from approaching women; My first reaction is almost always, "look harmless, act like you don't notice, walk away." If I'm attracted to a woman, I must overcome this instinct; and every now and then, I overcompensate. So do most men. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Arturas is right that there is a certain "prey" mentality that women must have in order to - no I'm not talking about having fun sex but instead to... wait for it... save our lives! Who the heck wants to be with a date rapist? Geesh. More women than you'd think. This... this... is what bothers me the most about our society. Point blank: women want predatory men. Not all of them. But enough. ...They just don't want so many of them. More, the conflicting signals that men recieve, are enough to a)make everything a woman states about her own desires untrustworthy; b) make 'rape' practically mandatory, in some minds; c) make other men so afraid of even talking to women that they spend months, years, decades, alone. Because their efforts end up with either a creeped out girl, or 'friend zone' because they weren't creepy enough. Forward enough. 'Confident' enough. Call it whatever you fucking want. Denying that this is a problem, putting the whole of the burden on predatory men, makes predatory men. There is not a minority of women giving conflicting signals. This is endemic to dating. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Nothing wrong with playing or having fun on the first date if you feel comfortable. Define comfortable. Be careful, because your definition is not universal, no matter what it is. Believe me, I know what you mean; some people can sense this. With practice. But it is not a given at all that a woman's giving of the vibes she thinks she is. The truth about tone and body language is that, just as it can be very informative, it can also be very misleading. Further, I frequently find that 'being comfortable' isn't enough; many women often 'test' my confidence and self image by throwing up the ol' bitch shield. Sometimes, I walk away. But I can't get netted about it every time, because it happens with almost every woman at some point in the attraction period. And there have been times when I completely ignored it and ended up with a very happy girl. And a few times, an unhappy one, because I read the signals wrong. Though I can remember one or two women vividly that never did raise a 'bitch shield' at any point, but they were rare, rare gems indeed. Too rare to count on. If I waited for a clear 'go ahead', I'd still be a virgin. Which I respect, I have no problems with virgins, but I have a sex drive. Sorry. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss We do new folks a disservice when we tell them that it's ok for them to just blindly follow some man who slaps a "dom" label on his ass. Rapists will find new "submissive" women easy prey. Psshht. Now THAT is bullshit. Women who self-identify as BDSM submissives are usually a LOT cagier and defense-minded than mainstream women (who are already playing defense most of the time) so it's much tougher to find one who 'blindly follows' a damned thing. Whether they're 'new' or not. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Was he about to rape and abuse me? The answer is YES. He was about to rape and abuse you. How do I know? Because he tricked and lied to her. If he had been with a woman who wanted him, he wouldn't have needed to do that. Maybe. But you go too far in assuring her this was a fact in the making. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Men have been taught (at least they were 20 or so years ago) that women will say no when they mean no. Still are. There are laws, even. If women's actions were congruent with this stated desire, then life would be a lot easier for everyone. As it is, I tend to assume it's true and back away; further, even if a woman later changes her mind - which is more often than not - I ignore her. Petty of me, but I get so tired of the bullshit. I've taken the stance that if you test me with a clear NO, I will tear the paper in half and leave the room, and I don't give a shit if you change your mind in this lifetime or just meant to say 'Moo' or some shit. It's just too dangerous to mess around with. Being a man is practically fucking illegal. And that approach... It works for me. I just try to avoid phrasing a question a woman will feel obligated to say no to; I hint, innuendo, and tell convenient, obvious but comforting lies. But I see so often the misery 'no means no' causes others, men and women both, because shit-testing is something women do almost instinctively. I.E., they'll send out some retarded complaint or negation, some reason why they couldn't possibly do it tonight, and wait to see who falls over themselves to please them and agree; then completely ignore those men. Forever castrated. It's painful to observe. And it makes the sincerely expressed desires of the majority of women completely untrustworthy. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Nothing wrong with a man being a man, wanting what he wants and going after it. Nothing wrong with a woman submitting to her desires. Women need to be clear and say no when she means no. Men need to be clear about that. Yep. But to be clear, this often means that the same exact action can be interpreted as good or evil, arrogant or confident, rape or dominance. I'm sorry. But the battle lines are a mess. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Nothing wrong with a one night stand, playing on the first date, etc. However, there is something very wrong in two ways with the scenario the OP presented - he tricked her. She didn't follow her gut. Let me tell you the story of a word. The word is 'slut'. And a good number of women will go to any length, climb any mountain, and accept any cover story in order to avoid admitting that they're interested and willing to have sex... because of that word, and the connotations thereof. I'll never ask a woman to go to my house and have sex with me. I consider it crude and offensive to most women's sensibilities. I'll hint, suggest, then say 'Why don't we stop by my place to pick up a few things', or similar. By criticizing this part of the story, you're demonstrating your lack of etiquette. Some women will embrace the idea of having a good fuck. Others want it, but will do anything to avoid the idea of sluttiness, even if the subtext is blatant, you must never be blatant about it until she's committed. If you prefer the direct approach, fine; but most women do not, until they've committed to it somehow. Usually by a hot scene in the living room. quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss If this is the 3rd time, I'd say she's tempted the Fates quite enough, and it's going to get her. Soon. Let's hope she learns before that. I haven't been blaming her at alll up to this point; she did fine in leaving if she felt uncomfortable. I was just answering her question - "was he wrong?" My answer was yes, because he showed a lack of style once he got her in the house. My approach would have been to simply kiss her, then ask if she wants to stay for a bit. If I got a yes then, I might get all D if I was feeling it. He triggered the 'I'm Not A Slut!' defense with the good submissive comment he made, made himself look like a tool, and killed the mood. But. I haven't addressed the 'third time' comment. OP, if this is a pattern, you need to look closely at the kind of experience you want - visualize it. Go on dates, from start to bedroom, in your mind, and have a clear idea of what kind of seduction scenario would work for you. Fantasize being seduced, and fantasize it in a realistic way. The guy's clumsy. He makes lame jokes. He's human. And you want him anyway. That will give you a much better grasp of how to control a date from your side of things, so that you stop having this sort of nonsense happen. If the signals aren't meshing with your visualization, hit the abort button. If they are but he accidentally throws a curveball, look hard to see if it's him being a doof or you being a judgmental bitch. Pardon the french, just how I roll.

DMFParadox -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 7:06:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss quote: Men have been taught (at least they were 20 or so years ago) that women will say no when they mean no. That just is not the case so much anymore. Women are taught in health classes, at Take Back the Night Marches, in Women's Studies classes, at college welcome lectures what the difference is between consensual sex and date rape. AND SO ARE MEN. Should read: Men have been taught (at least they were 20 or so years ago) that women will say no when they mean MAYBE. That just is not the case so much anymore. Women are taught in health classes, at Take Back the Night Marches, in Women's Studies classes, at college welcome lectures what the difference is between consensual sex and date rape. AND SO ARE MEN. ... I wish this were true. To a small degree, it is. But it's a tiny drop in a big bucket of perceptions. Further, it ignores the almost instinctive, reflexive action of women who say no to avoid giving off the impression of being slutty and easy. No matter how many classes they attend, or their daughters attend, 'no' WILL mean 'maybe' to them. It's deeper than a simple turn of phrase.

NuevaVida -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/15/2010 9:15:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Thread hijack Hello Nueva Vida - It has been a pleasure (and continues to be) to see the changes in you. I remember when you were so hurt before, and you've come back an continued with such strength of character and positive energy! It is a joy to see. Whatever you're doing is good stuff. Thank you for sharing it with us all. Best, sunshine end hijack Wow, thank you, sunshine. That really made me smile. [:)]

DesFIP -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 5:23:26 AM)
Kudos to Sunshine for her brilliant post. And I wonder if Arturas can get off his high horse long enough to realize that when he spouted all that guff about what a great sexual predator he is, what the women here read was him announcing he's a rapist. Because as the Sunny one said, to us there is no difference.

angelikaJ -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 5:36:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lairaimmortelle quote: ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh quote: ORIGINAL: clitwhipscream Doms dont play fair. Some lie, some steal, some cheat, some just withhold information (strong silent type). Deal with it. Is this what is to be expected and accepted of those who identify as dominant? Is it really wrong to expect more? I could not have said it better myself. Those that I do meet wonder why I'm so bitter anymore. Here ya go. bold and underlined. Let me get this straight: According to you, you have had 3 negative encounters. From the 3 negative encounters you extrapolate that: "Doms dont play fair. Some lie, some steal, some cheat, some just withhold information (strong silent type). Deal with it." is in fact true. You know, that just doesn't make any sense at all. I can understand you feeling angry at the second 2. The first one may have been an ass or may have been someone you were incompatible with. There are women who go for that thing right off the bat. But to categorize all Doms as being unfair players who don't give a damn about the women who submit to them just isn't going to get you very far in finding what you are looking for. It is all or nothing thinking at it's worst. You get bitter after 3? After most of women here have said: "No, it doesn't have to be that way and I know this because it has been different in my experience..." you still want to focus on the negativity in the room. That is a choice, that you are free to make. There is a big difference between going more slowly, listening to your gut (I bet if you were to think about 'stalker-guy' you would see some red flags in the beginning that you missed) and making more discerning, careful choices and deciding all dominant men are jerks. I have made mistakes very similar to the one you made. I, too, was new and didn't have clear and established boundaries. I got groped in a way I didn't like. After I sorted it out, I made a better choice next time. Not all of my choices since then were _good_ choices but I look to see what my part in it was. If I was treated badly, that was not my fault. However, there were usually ways in which I contributed to the situation; ways in which I put myself into a position to be hurt. Did I sacrifice something I needed to have their attention perhaps for example...? I now have a Master that I am compatible with. Had I written men from here off, that likely wouldn't be the case...and oh, what I would be missing out on. We all make mistakes. Hopefully we learn from them and don't repeat the same ones. If your people picker is malfunctioning, then maybe you need to take a break and better figure out what it is you are looking for. But the problem is not all of the Doms or all of the subs. The problem is likely impatience and wanting the specialness of being wanted. Take your time... Discovering yourself, discovering the other person and the other person discovering you. The journey is half the fun. Really!

BurntKitty -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 5:54:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fellowtraveler <snip>.... How often you "whip your Tam" (or Rosey Palmer or whatever name she goes by these days) is really none of my damned business. Best. line. eveh. [sm=line.gif] Now, I am seriously in need of caffeine. Can I get anyone else a cuppa? (I r a tw00 swabe after all.) And then back to the show: [sm=jerry.gif]

Arturas -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 6:16:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DesFIP Kudos to Sunshine for her brilliant post. And I wonder if Arturas can get off his high horse long enough to realize that when he spouted all that guff about what a great sexual predator he is, what the women here read was him announcing he's a rapist. Because as the Sunny one said, to us there is no difference. Pardon me. I never said "sexual". I said predator/prey. It is not the same thing and you should know it. But I understand you; you read your unfulfilled desires into my posting and expand them into something you dearly lust for but DEEPLY fear at the same time; so from the warring factions within your mind you lash out in frustration and indignation as the OP did, running from and only coming close to that thing you so passionately desire through the safety of a cold unfeeling keyboard. It is "uncooth". Be well, Arturas

sunshinemiss -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 6:44:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DMFParadox ... I wish this were true. To a small degree, it is. But it's a tiny drop in a big bucket of perceptions. Further, it ignores the almost instinctive, reflexive action of women who say no to avoid giving off the impression of being slutty and easy. No matter how many classes they attend, or their daughters attend, 'no' WILL mean 'maybe' to them. It's deeper than a simple turn of phrase. Let's turn this around a bit, Jeff, shall we? Let's say you go out with a woman, and she tells you that she likes to take men's asses, and you say no, you aren't into that because it ignores the almost instinctive, reflexive action of men who say no to avoid giving off the impression of being gay.. Of course, you don't want to be seen as an ass slut, so you persist in saying no no no, but she realizes (of course) that your "no" actually means "maybe". Therefore, when she has you bent over, and she takes your ass, it was because it was merely a misperception "deeper than the turn of a phrase". Am I understanding this correctly from a straight male perspective? best, sunshine

BurntKitty -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 8:39:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Arturas It is "uncooth". Be well, Arturas No, what is uncouth is your attitude. uncouth [ʌnˈkuːθ]adj lacking in good manners, refinement, or grace[Old English uncūth, from un-1 + cūth familiar; related to Old High German kund known, Old Norse kunnr] Carry on with the show. -BK the grammar Nazi.

leadership527 -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 12:02:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit So we are prey and predator eh? I gotta admit this whole thing has me in stitches. This is yet another one of those cases where at least some in the BDSM world have tossed out ALL common sense and ALL knowledge and instead are making up crap from whole cloth. Any dog I've ever known is perfectly capable of telling the difference between a mate and a food item. Anyone who gets mates and food items confused is just plain being stupid. Edited to add: Just another little factual tidbit... ALL humans are predators... nasty ones truth be told.

DesFIP -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 12:57:23 PM)
Disagree: All humans have the potential of becoming predators. I've known people who raise their children properly, even when they've had no sleep and would kill for some, they still get up and tend that helpless person. I've known people who donate time to Habitat for Humanity, money to food pantries. And none of these actions scream nasty predator. How many old ladies have you run over lately?

WolfyMontgomery -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 1:34:56 PM)
Well, wolves are predators, and they tend their young when they are helpless and go out of their way to get enough food for them when they would do better for themselves by saving it. ;P You CAN be a predator without being nasty about it, I would figure. It's just that the nasty ones are the ones that we tend to notice more.

Lockit -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 1:40:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 quote: ORIGINAL: Lockit So we are prey and predator eh? I gotta admit this whole thing has me in stitches. This is yet another one of those cases where at least some in the BDSM world have tossed out ALL common sense and ALL knowledge and instead are making up crap from whole cloth. Any dog I've ever known is perfectly capable of telling the difference between a mate and a food item. Anyone who gets mates and food items confused is just plain being stupid. Edited to add: Just another little factual tidbit... ALL humans are predators... nasty ones truth be told. Umm... well, I only eat food I have bought and paid for or that has given me permission to eat it. I might even say thank you. [:D] There are polite predators and then there are... real predators. (And) Some mates are food damn it! [;)]

BonesFromAsh -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 1:47:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Anyone who gets mates and food items confused is just plain being stupid Now I'm thinking about Praying Mantis sex... quote: There is a decided advantage for the female, however, if she does decide to behead her lover. The praying mantis brain, located in his head, controls inhibition, while a ganglion in the abdomen controls the motions of copulation. Absent his head, a male praying mantis will lose all his inhibitions and consummate his relationship with wild abandon. And what if she's hungry? For certain, a slow moving and deliberate predator like the praying mantis is not going to pass up an easy meal. If a male makes the unfortunate choice of a hungry female for a mate, he's probably going to be toast once they've mated. [:)] seriously, someone was bound to bring it up

LadyNTrainer -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 2:03:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss Let's say you go out with a woman, and she tells you that she likes to take men's asses, and you say no, you aren't into that because it ignores the almost instinctive, reflexive action of men who say no to avoid giving off the impression of being gay.. Of course, you don't want to be seen as an ass slut, so you persist in saying no no no, but she realizes (of course) that your "no" actually means "maybe". Therefore, when she has you bent over, and she takes your ass, it was because it was merely a misperception "deeper than the turn of a phrase". Am I understanding this correctly from a straight male perspective? Yep. I think this definitely means that DMF actually wants us all to dogpile on his ass, even though he'll tell us publicly that he doesn't want to be assfucked. Because no really means maybe. 'Cause that's how it works. Anybody need to borrow some lube and a strapon? [:D][:D][:D][:D]

clitwhipscream -> RE: cooth, uncooth whose to say? (11/16/2010 2:26:21 PM)
"Doms dont play fair. Some lie, some steal, some cheat, some just withhold information (strong silent type). Deal with it." I said that, not the original poster. That is becuase they dont. At least not while the chase is hot. They have a goal, and that goal often includes suterfuge. Each and every one has a different hunting style and a good bottom learns to read it. I know a dom who specificly tops 'via confusion'. I dont play with him, becasue I dont like to be dominated by confusion. That does not mean he is a bad person in fact, he is another big beautiful woodsman friend of mine, makes a fantastic moca capp. If done right, and by the right dom, it is fun. I am safe, physically and emotionaly, with people who admit thier predatory nature. To do otherwise is a victem (or an offender) waiting to happen becasue you can not truely control desires you wont fess up to. An analogy is when you use an image or idea to stand for another image or idea in order to examine it with another perspective. There are countless ways to do this in kink, the roles are only limited by one's imagination. Humans, can make any relationship erotic. Predator/prey is also a specific kink, and to say that I am confusing food items with sex play is the same as saying a 'daddy' dom really wants to fuck little kids.

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