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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 9:04:05 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You are prejudicial towards anyone who doesnt agree with your way of nonreligious beliefs...

Really? How did you come up with that?

What does "your way of nonreligious beliefs" even mean?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I believe your life would be so much more stress free since i seem to be the poster you like to goad and attack the most.

This isn't stressful for me, I'm here debating because I enjoy it. I'm often critical of you because you engage in debating tactics that are less than honest and I haven't blocked you because I think you have the ability to eventually grasp that strawmanning atheists is dishonest and I might eventually get to have a conversation with you that could actually go somewhere.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 10:39:49 AM   
subjeremy2


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Really? i gave up on her when she stated that religious differences didn't cause wars,
Maybe they don't teach about the crusades in American schools, or most of the history of the middle east but I think most rational people can name 4 wars which resulted from religious differences.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 10:52:56 AM   
AquaticSub


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My personal view... the differences themselves don't cause wars. People, of all types be they religious or non-religious, who can not accept other people being different cause wars.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 11:20:47 AM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc


quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Nobody NEEDS love, but I'm sure you agree that we're all better off with it, than without.


I do indeed agree. But we're human. A god isn't.

 
And that is where you get the problem where people limit a god to human behaviour.  I am sure if god needed love, he would have created dogs and been happy at that.



What exactly makes you sure of that?

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 12:02:41 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

And you're aware of some of the more complex ways one's own mind can deceive one?



Thought I'd come back to this as I find it intriguing - actually, I'm not aware, please enlighten me!!


Ok, as a sort of "101" - there are a number of temporary states, some physical, some mental, that can lead to feelings of "something external is affecting me" (as just one example). I'm certainly no expert, but during my time working with certain healthcare providers this came up one day while I was speaking to a consultant neurosurgeon at a respected London hospital. He said that certain vitamin deficiencies (as just one example) can cause the brain to perceive internal and external events differently, and incorrectly. Ditto changes in brain chemistry. These can lead to things like euphoria, paranoia, and a whole host of other effects, none of which are "real", but are "real" to the subject. Certain foods can also do this for some individuals, such as nutmeg. Even low blood-sugar, such as when famished, can be a factor, and the ways in which several of these things can interact is also an unknown. The thing is, what one person experiences will almost certainly not be what another does, even under the same conditions.

A number of low-grade psychological disorders also sometimes manifest in the same, or similar, ways. Sometimes the individual recovers on their own, but the feelings and emotions brought out in them during that period may remain.

Then there’s external contaminants – mercury and lead intake effects are much rarer than once they were (“Mad as a hatter”, for example, comes from the fact many hats were finished to a shine using mercury, and mercury’s effects on the brain are well known) but hospitals still see examples of such contaminants even today, and often the subject is completely unaware of having been contaminated – in one case history I saw (from not so long ago) a man had begun to develop mania and obsessive-compulsive tendencies. He was treated with the standard meds, but his condition deteriorated, and he was eventually detained under Section 4 of the Act, and later, an extended application made under Section 2. During the second period of assessment his family (while getting his stuff together) managed to accidentally break a floorboard in his flat, and when someone was called in to replace it they found a huge pool of a mercury-or-solvent-rich liquid; the theory was that his flat, in the basement of a converted older building, had become the “trickle down” point for some form of illegal chemical activity further up in the block, years previously, and the stuff had lain there undetected ever since. This tallied with his history, in that he’d been fine for as long as he’d had a job, but only developed advanced symptoms once he’d been made redundant – he’d simply been spending more time at home. Sadly, although he improved enough to be released, he never fully recovered – the damage had already been done.

The central issue is that (as I understand it), because the effects are produced within the mind, as a result of one's own brain chemistry changes, rather than the application of an external drug (like, say, LSD, as an extreme example), it's very difficult for the subject to be objective; they "feel" real because, to that person, while undergoing them, they are "real".

Please understand I'm not saying that's the case with you, or with any other "believer", but the brain can play some amazingly subtle tricks on a person.



I daresay we're straying off topic BUT, as someone who's passionate about nutrition in particular, and biology or any science in general, I'd be very interested in pursuing the issue of what misperceptions are caused by what nutrients/chemicals further.

Any good links you know of?

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 12:09:23 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
I daresay we're straying off topic BUT, as someone who's passionate about nutrition in particular, and biology or any science in general, I'd be very interested in pursuing the issue of what misperceptions are caused by what nutrients/chemicals further.

Any good links you know of?


From memory, the B-complex vitamins were the ones most pointed to as giving issues (when deficient), but as I said I don't profess to be an expert.

A quick google throes this up:

http://www.nutritional-healing.com.au/content/articles-content.php?heading=The%20Role%20of%20Minerals%20and%20Vitamins%20in%20Mental%20Health

... but I dare say there's lots more sites out there.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 12:37:28 PM   
Moonhead


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Don't a lot of cults make a point of feeding their initiates a low protein diet to make them more impressionable? The Moonies and the Children of God both used to be noted for that, if memory serves, and ISKON have a bit of a rep for that as well (though in their case, that's more down to dietary restrictions they have a religious excuse for. Mind you, they have one for sleep restrictions as well...)

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 4:00:35 PM   
Jaybeee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Well, I hit him with Pascal's Wager, which in and of itself should convince ANY irreligious person that there is no incentive to disbelieve.


Since Pascal's Wager doesn't seem to be working on irreligious people, have you considered the possibility that this statement isn't accurate?

I was the one who promised you a unicorn version of Pascal's Wager, I suppose the first step should be agreeing that this is Pascal's Wager:

http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/pascals-wager/
(1) It is possible that the Christian God exists and it is possible that the Christian God does not exist.
(2) If one believes in the Christian God then if he exists then one receives an infinitely great reward and if he does not exist then one loses little or nothing.
(3) If one does not believe in the Christian God then if he exists then one receives an infinitely great punishment and if he does not exist then one gains little or nothing.
(4) It is better to either receive an infinitely great reward or lose little or nothing than it is to either receive an infinitely great punishment or gain little or nothing.
Therefore:
(5) It is better to believe in the Christian God than it is not to believe in the Christian God.
(6) If one course of action is better than another then it is rational to follow that course of action and irrational to follow the other.
Therefore:
(7) It is rational to believe in the Christian God and irrational not to believe in the Christian God.


If you have any issues with that, think something should be phrased differently or want to rewrite the enire thing I'd be happy to use your version of Pascal's Wager.


It's pretty easy - Atheist and Christian die.

If Atheist was right and the Christian was wrong, both end up as dust, and the Christian has paid no price for being wrong (all sins forgiven on accepting Jesus as saviour)

BUT...

If Christian was right and the Atheist was wrong, the chances are the Atheist goes to Hell, the Christian goes to Heaven.

That's about it...cut it any way you like, committing to Atheism is a much higher risk, for no greater reward.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/25/2010 4:11:59 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
It's pretty easy - Atheist and Christian die.

If Atheist was right and the Christian was wrong, both end up as dust, and the Christian has paid no price for being wrong (all sins forgiven on accepting Jesus as saviour)

BUT...

If Christian was right and the Atheist was wrong, the chances are the Atheist goes to Hell, the Christian goes to Heaven.

That's about it...cut it any way you like, committing to Atheism is a much higher risk, for no greater reward.

The thing is though, why bend your knee in fear of "going to hell"? If there is a god, and it follows the usual all-seeing, all-knowing, etc etc, rules, then surely it'd know that the only reason you "praised" him/it was that you were shitting yourself? So it's either a) so desperate for love/obedience/praise that it's prepared to overlook the cheap falseness of the atheist's dying "faith", or god is easier to fool than a blind grandmother. Or, of course, it's so forgiving that it doesn't matter whether you do, or don't, "convert".

Pascal's Wager has always struck me as a very strange application of "logic". It even panders to the Christian fear tactic of using hell as a bogeyman to scare people into "belief".

I do like a mate's line though; we were once waiting in a car, next to a church, for a friend to join us, and all these old folk started coming out of Sunday service. Matey said "wow, look at em! All cramming for their finals!"

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 1:52:08 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc



quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
Nobody NEEDS love, but I'm sure you agree that we're all better off with it, than without.


I do indeed agree. But we're human. A god isn't.

 
And that is where you get the problem where people limit a god to human behaviour.  I am sure if god needed love, he would have created dogs and been happy at that.




What exactly makes you sure of that?


In the same way that makes one believe god exists and needs love.

And just for an added bonus... the above statements are not necessarily a statement of what I believe but an example of the way people limit god.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 2:04:45 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee
It's pretty easy - Atheist and Christian die.

If Atheist was right and the Christian was wrong, both end up as dust, and the Christian has paid no price for being wrong (all sins forgiven on accepting Jesus as saviour)

BUT...

If Christian was right and the Atheist was wrong, the chances are the Atheist goes to Hell, the Christian goes to Heaven.

That's about it...cut it any way you like, committing to Atheism is a much higher risk, for no greater reward.


The reality is though, using this example is that you don't just have to believe in Jesus and it's all ok.  It is taught that when one gives and accepts, you do it with humility and with love.  In other words, just doing and just believing doesn't cut it... you have to mean it.  An atheist cannot just accept and know Jesus 'just like that'... no one can.... not even a person who calls themselves to be a christian.  At the risk of sounding like a romance novel, you have to feel it.

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love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 5:35:56 AM   
GotSteel


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It's pretty easy - Conehats and Aconehats die.

If Aconehat was right and the Conehat was wrong, both end up as dust, and the Conehat has paid no price for being wrong (believing the Big Bang was a unicorn orgy and wearing a cone upon his head in order to worship the pointy creators)

BUT...

If Conehat was right and the Aconehat was wrong, the chances are the Aconehat goes to the Pointy Pointy Bad Place, the Conehat goes to Unicorn Fun Land (it's AWE-SOME I mean they even fart rainbows!).

That's about it...cut it any way you like, committing to Aconehatism is a much higher risk, for no greater reward.


So have you put your cone on or is there something wrong with this argument?




Attachment (1)

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 7:31:40 AM   
tazzygirl


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LOL takes you days to come up with that?

Go ahead abd block me, GS. you arent worth it, sweet cheeks.

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 7:41:52 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subjeremy2

Really? i gave up on her when she stated that religious differences didn't cause wars,
Maybe they don't teach about the crusades in American schools, or most of the history of the middle east but I think most rational people can name 4 wars which resulted from religious differences.


Last i heard, the Crusades was a war over land. Both sides wanted it. Both sides whipped their followers into a frenzy. More than one web site attributes it to more than just religion.

But, since you have written me off... which im thankful for... perhaps others will back up you statement and come up with the other 3 wars for you, since you seem to have missed that mark yourself.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to subjeremy2)
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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 8:28:00 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jaybeee

It's pretty easy - Atheist and Christian die.

If Atheist was right and the Christian was wrong, both end up as dust, and the Christian has paid no price for being wrong (all sins forgiven on accepting Jesus as saviour)

BUT...

If Christian was right and the Atheist was wrong, the chances are the Atheist goes to Hell, the Christian goes to Heaven.

That's about it...cut it any way you like, committing to Atheism is a much higher risk, for no greater reward.


seen any laws created by any true atheists if there is such a thing?

certain actions fall into certian slots regardless of the label

best translation of sin is debt


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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 8:34:21 AM   
Icarys


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quote:

Last i heard, the Crusades was a war over land.

Holy Land.


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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 10:54:56 AM   
tazzygirl


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And the others that you should so easily know as holy wars?

And if you actually read up on the history of the Crusades you would see it began under Pope Urban II who wanted to increase his own power as Pope. Much like the Spanish Inquisition was more about personal power than it was about religion.

Or is it just easier to believe that it was ALL about religion?

Are you that easily led?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/26/2010 11:00:59 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 11:09:41 AM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And the others that you should so easily know as holy wars?


Try bunging "religious wars list" into google.

It's a shedload! I got 6 on my own, and felt quite smug, but then tapped google and there's hundreds of the buggers!

There's lovely jihads, smashing crusades, fun catholic vs. protestant punch-ups (that one should have its own section it's so huge), Arabs vs. Israelis, Bosnia, etc etc.

Or are you now going to do that classic "but they're not religious wars unless they're wholly and only about religion" side-step?*

*that's what I'd do if I were in your shoes

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RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 11:12:31 AM   
tazzygirl


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Please do list. And, yes, thats exactly what i am going to do. Because, as i have so often pointed out not everything "labled" religious is in fact religious. Its most often power held behind the name of religion that people want to gain, keep, or destroy.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 359
RE: What do you think of Aetheists? - 11/26/2010 11:17:55 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Please do list. And, yes, thats exactly what i am going to do. Because, as i have so often pointed out not everything "labled" religious is in fact religious. Its most often power held behind the name of religion that people want to gain, keep, or destroy.


Yeah, you went for the get-out I suggested. Disappointing, but hardly unexpected

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