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Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 4:16:14 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Okay.. this has been driving me absolutely bonkers for a good few weeks now.

Master's mother keeps resetting the power in the house because there's too much stuff running in one area at once.
They have these lights and pumps in the garage that need to run 24/7 - all these other things in the house that needs to run regularly, and so whenever she turns the dryer on it shorts out the power on half the house, and so she resets the fuse almost daily to get it back on and to force it to run ALL these things at once; which can take a good two or three resets to get the house to obey.

The thing is.. I have VERY huge feeling that at some point she's going to reset it, and nothing will come back on, because the fuse will have been destroyed completely. I have tried to tell her my suspicions that this old house (built in like... the 40's or something) cannot handle that much power being pumped through the fuses, which is why they're fucking up, and if she keeps forcing that much power through them, the least that'll happen is a bust fuse - I'm afraid that the worst might be that old old old wires will melt or get damaged and she's going to have to pay money to get an electrician out to rewire the damaged portion of the house. And that's only if the damaged wires don't catch anything on fire.

Do my suspicions and fears hold any weight? Am I worrying for nothing, or is Master's mother going to dig herself a big hole that she can't get out of???

Are there any electricians here that know a thing or two about this stuff?


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 4:24:01 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		She needs to get the fuse box replaced with a breaker panel or the house might end up burning to the ground. The job is less than $1000 around here and insurance savings will pay for that in a few years.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 4:28:01 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Yeah.... they have a car sitting in their driveway that's been there for a good 8 months now, because the $500 they need to fix the little things and register it is too much to afford. $1000 is so far out there I doubt they'd ever do that.

I just hope she turns the stupid lights off in the garage, which would fix ALL her problems, because they're those huge sun lamp types of lights. But nooooo. Stubborn stubborn stubborn.

Now I know where Master gets it.


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Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 4:44:53 PM   
stef


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

I have VERY huge feeling that at some point she's going to reset it, and nothing will come back on, because the fuse will have been destroyed completely.

If a fuse has blown, it is destroyed completely.  That's what they do.  They sacrifice themselves to save you like little secret service agents and they only do that job once before they need to be replaced.  There is a metal strip that will melt when you exceed the fuse's amperage rating.  It melts so your house wiring doesn't melt and set the house on fire.

If Mom is "resetting the fuse" then you might not actually have fuses, but breakers installed instead.  Look at the links below.  If your electrical panel looks like the pic in the first link, you're likely fine.  Breakers are designed to trip then they can be reset.  It won't reset or it'll pop immediately after resetting if an unsafe line condition still exists. 

If your panel looks like the second, you need to follow Hillwilliam's advice and look into getting it replaced.

breaker panel

fuse panel

~stef


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 4:48:54 PM   
LadyConstanze


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Status: offline 		Bahhh, try old UK houses, lovely big stone walls and all that but listed buildings and anything getting done on them....

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 6:29:55 PM   
IceDemeter


Posts: 84
Status: offline 		Not an electrician - but work for an electrical manufacturer....

If you do actually have a fuse panel, you don't have to get a whole new panel (and all the re-wiring that goes with it) --- a couple of manufacturers do have a breaker-insert that can be installed to replace just the interior of the panel and no re-wiring required. Sorry, but I'm over in Canada so have no idea what the cost might be there (try the websites for Eaton Electrical or Groupe Schneider or Square D).

Stef is absolutely correct that a breaker won't reset until the over-current condition has cleared - but unfortunately that doesn't mean that things are completely safe. Continuous over-current conditions can actually cause the contacts of a breaker to weld, so that it would not by physically able to trip when it needs to. The best way to check this is to turn the breakers off and on again a couple of times per year to make sure that they're physically working properly. If you have a really hard time moving the handle, or can't move it at all - the breaker needs to be replaced.

From what you are saying, the issue comes up when the dryer goes on - and I'm guessing that it would also be whenever another motor comes on as well. What this means is that there is NOT an over-current when everything is running as normal. Motors, however, take a large amount of current to get up to speed (3x to 10x, depending on the motor) - once they are up to speed, they don't need as much current. So, what you're getting is an over-current when the motor comes on IF everything else is also running at the same time. If the pumps, for example, aren't on when the dryer comes on - you won't get a trip. If the pumps start at the same time as the dryer - trip. If you try to reset it and the pumps and the dryer are all still switched "on" and calling for power at once - can't reset.

This is not anything to worry about - it's the breaker doing what it's designed to do.

That said - breakers still take time to trip and so your really old wiring is taking that extra current for a little while every time it happens. Over time, this MAY cause breakdown in the insulation of the wiring, and could cause a problem (a short-circuit, or a fire in worst case scenario). When it comes to electricity I tend to the cautious side and would try to avoid situations which could potentially cause issues.

I don't know if you can talk them into it, but the way to avoid the problem is to take a couple of seconds to turn off something (extra lights, heaters, pumps) before turning on the dryer - there shouldn't be any problem with turning them back on again once the dryer is up to speed. It takes a while to get in to the habit (as I know from a few years in an office where the breaker would trip if I tried to make a photocopy while the coffee-maker was brewing), but eventually it becomes second-nature to either wait a couple of extra minutes for something to shut off or to go and turn it off yourself...

Good luck!


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 9:44:58 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		Thanks for the advice!
I wish it were so simple to talk to her about it, it only ever needs to be reset when she does laundry, because its part of her "routine" as housewife to do it at the specific time of day as that, and last time I mentioned it she said that I should turn my computer off then - which it was off.

I'm actually thinking about talking to Masters dad about it, since he's usually the only one she listens to (after all, Master and I are too young and inexperienced to know about that sort of thing). Hopefully I'll get a chance to talk to him in the next few days.

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Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/20/2010 10:19:14 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline 		Well, if they sell a pound or two of whatever they're growing in the garage, they should be able to afford a new breaker box!

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 12:29:34 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Get me up there and I would do it. I would have to charge you though. I can do it in a day usually, but never forget Murphy's law. In the regular system in the US you have two hots that are out of phase. You are ovrloading one phase it seems. Either that or a whole bunch of stuff is running off of one branch circuit. It's hard to tell without being there, and even if I were there I might have to follow wires all over the place (sometimes literally).

Consider - If you get me there for a week and feed me good, I can get you off around $500. That is for the job done the best it can be done. You are welcome to take a video of the whole job and let anyone and everyone inspect and/or otherwise critique it. sometime in 2011 I maybe could use a bit of a vacation. When I leave you will be wired.

The problem with house wiring (and the reason the really "elite" electricians won't touch it) is that things are added on improperly too many times. When I do wiring you will NEVER have a problem. We discuss your needs, like a future AC unit in a bedroom, where the next stove or arc welder will be, all that. I also allow room for expansion. I was thinking of starting a company and calling it "Overkill Electris" but afterwards I thought the word kill just doesn't fit, in a way.

Your average electrician can do the job, but not always perfectly. I've tackled a few problems that were quite wierd, like a ground gradient causing a bar in the picture of a DVD player. Nobody else could figure that out, and of course it then got dumped in my lap. Details on request.

People always say like that Women get boned real good at the mechanic, and people out there are not of perfect character, so be careful. A licensed and bonded contractor did my Ma's bathroom years ago and created a hazard that I discovered later, YEARS later. Details on that, also on request.

It is a serious problem to figure out who you can trust these days. There are two aspects of trust, intent AND judgement. Someone can love you to death, but kill you by mistake.

Tell ya what, ask them what happens if they mis-identify the neutral and add a GFI (in a house with knob and tube). That's what one of these upstraight licensed assholes did to my Ma. Ask and report back and I might be able to get an idea whether the guy knows his shit.

T 

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 12:36:03 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Consider - If you get me there for a week and feed me good, I can get you off around $500.


And does that include the electrical work they need done, or would you charge extra for that?


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 12:57:43 AM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		If who knows whos shit?

They don't need wiring done... yet... I just have a feeling that if she doesn't give up her little routine of shorting or whatever the house constantly and having to reset it every other day is going to damage the wiring, whatever fuses there are, or worse. She's just abusing the wiring right now by continuously resetting it and forcing it to work.

And honestly, it's not my house, I can't tell them "Here's the electrician, pay him and feed him for a week and he'll do electrical work that you don't think you'll need."

I think it is a breaker box, seeing as no fuses are broken or whatever that they have to replace, they just need to reset it constantly because power stops flowing. I'm just going to have to talk to Master's father to get him to talk some sense into his wife so that she actually turns something off when she needs to use the stupid dryer, even if that means breaking her 'usual' routine by needing to walk out to the garage and turn the stupid lights off in order to start the damn thing.

All it'll take (hopefully) is the right person telling her she's being dumb about it - and that person isn't me nor Master.


_____________________________

~Eleven

-A Wolf of a Different Color

Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 1:39:49 AM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		No, the fuses or breakers specifically protect the wires in the house. However when the wires are old, it is not so surefire. If it's a matter of resetting a breaker usually everything is fine. When you have to replace a fuse, things are not up to snuff. Fuses are out, only very special circumstances call for them, and a house is not one of them.

So how many amps is the breaker that is tripping ? If it's tripping a 15, no sweat. It also depends on what is running off of it. For example if you have an apartment running off one 20 amp, it is going to trip before noon. A microwave runs 8-12 amps, a toaster about 7, add a few lights and a refrigerator and it will add up to more than 15 which will cause a 15 amp breaker to trip.

I've seen all kinds of shit people did. Though I haven't had it personally, some build a room addition to a house, and just follow code, which might allow the whole new room to run on one or two 20 amp breakers. But then they want separate heat and AC, a fridge and stove, an outside outlet for an arc welder and then it is just too much.

Whatever the situation, your first instinct is correct, if a breaker keeps tripping it will go bad. A breaker can sit there for 100 years, but really, if it trips ahout 30 times it should be replaced as it is not designed for that. However it will not burn the house down nor will it damage the witring, except if it is made by Federal Pacific. When breakers wear out, they are designed so that they don't pass more current than allowed, less is really it. You could have a 15 amp start tripping at 14, 13, 12 and less and less every time. That is how they are designed. Then it is a big pain in the ........

To my knowledge, only Federal Pacifics ever had a problem passing MORE current than called for, which is dangerous. Design is quite a bit more carefully considrred now.

The problem is still, if it needs to be fixed, finding someone who knows what they are doing.

Also, if it didn't trip before and it does now, and nothing else has changed, I would suspect the breaker itself. Something that works and then stops is not always at fault. But sometimes it is. I wouold change the breaker first, if the problem persists then you have to go farther.

T

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 2:05:52 AM   
WolfyMontgomery


Posts: 234
Joined: 9/28/2010
Status: offline 		The things that changed were the pumps and lights in the garage, ever since that stuff started up they've been tripping it. Far as I know there were no additions to the house, or anything like that, no renovations, etc. It's just the stupid shit in the garage, and she tries to turn on the washer and dryer, which apparently the basement room they're in and the garage must share the same breaker or fuse or whatever.

In some ways I think a good portion of my annoyance comes from the fact that she resets the WHOLE HOUSE when she does this... which can't be good for any electronics that are on at the time - like the couple of times my big computer has been on.

All she needs to do is turn off the garage lights to get the damn dryer going - but she'd rather deal with breakers and resetting crap than take a few extra seconds beforehand to save minutes of dealing with turning on and off the power.


_____________________________

~Eleven

-A Wolf of a Different Color

Fear me and my Gleaming Metal Chompers of DOOM!
..........that means my braces. >_>

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 4:25:46 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		OP,

you are taking a HUGE risk!   This should not happen every day.  You MUST lesson the load of what you use.  If you do not- you will have a serious problem... and maybe ever a fire.

If you have to break the dryer-   cut the plug off and say "oops"....  and put up a clothes line.

You will not be able to jerry rig this problem for an extended period of time.

If you take steps that it is not shorting out-  you wont have to pay the $500-$1000 in the near future.   If you fry your wires you can expect a much higher bill then the $1000.   Maybe  3--4k.

Your choice.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 5:44:08 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

The things that changed were the pumps and lights in the garage, ever since that stuff started up they've been tripping it. Far as I know there were no additions to the house, or anything like that, no renovations, etc. It's just the stupid shit in the garage, and she tries to turn on the washer and dryer, which apparently the basement room they're in and the garage must share the same breaker or fuse or whatever.

In some ways I think a good portion of my annoyance comes from the fact that she resets the WHOLE HOUSE when she does this... which can't be good for any electronics that are on at the time - like the couple of times my big computer has been on.

All she needs to do is turn off the garage lights to get the damn dryer going - but she'd rather deal with breakers and resetting crap than take a few extra seconds beforehand to save minutes of dealing with turning on and off the power.



Ok, so now we are getting to the heart of the problem. Your afraid she is going to screw up your computer when she resets things. Now I am not sure how she is resetting the whole house buy flipping one breaker, unless it is the main one that is blowing. But my guess is, your computer is on the same circuit as the dryer. You may want to look into that, because the bottom line is it's her house and if that's the way she likes to have it set up, then that's the way it is going to be.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:17:35 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Now I am not sure how she is resetting the whole house buy flipping one breaker



She's not sure which breaker it is, so she resets all of them one by one.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:22:10 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		Can't she tell by visual inspection which breaker needs reset?

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:25:08 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Can't she tell by visual inspection which breaker needs reset?


I would not worry about it.  Running the dryer is going to burn the house completely to the ground this winter-   at that point- the fuse wont matter.

-just sayn-

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:31:54 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		Just remember - electricity runs downhill. The lights might be too high, creating too much pressure at the breaker. Drop the lights down a couple feet and that should fix it.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:34:35 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Are the outlet boxes that the dryer and other things plugged into 15Amp or 20Amp? We just ran into this as a problem when we replaced nonfunctioning wall heaters in the beach house. Suddenly they were both running at the same time, add a hair dryer and they tripped. So The Man bought new outlets that are 20A and everything's fine. And that your master can do himself. He could also replace the garage lights with compact fluorescent bulbs which will give the light but draw a lot less power and cost a lot less. Have him do this as an early Christmas present for them. I buy compact flourescents at Lowes or Home Depot in a six pack.

Additionally GFIs like in the laundry room and that the pumps are plugged into are notorious for having a short life span. It's not uncommon to buy one that clicks off needlessly. I've just had to replace mine for the second time in months. This one works. The original one that was there for 15 years worked until we redid the room. But that second one was a dud from day one, tripping constantly and needing to be reset if anything else came on in the house.

No guarantee this will do it but it might and it's cheaper than getting an electrician to upgrade the panel and add a 50amp sub panel which is what they probably need.

If the pumps don't need to run continuously you can buy programmable heaters in the hardware store which would turn them off during laundry time and back on again later. Also saving money by not running constantly. Use the saving money approach to get them to go along with it. Do they really have this much water in there that the sump pump needs to be on 24/7? And if so, where is it coming from and what's required to fix it? 

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