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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:34:35 AM   
pahunkboy


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Also the low watt bulbs can help. 

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:39:34 AM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Can't she tell by visual inspection which breaker needs reset?


No because they're not flipping totally off. They're just a little bit off, not enough to see but enough to stop contact. The box needs labeling. Wolfy and her master can do this. Turn every light in the house on. Flip one breaker. Yell downstairs that the kitchen just went dark. And so on. The kitchen will have multiple breakers so plugging a radio into an outlet there may be needed to identify the extras. Buy labels and put next to each breaker, use a permanent marker to write with.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:49:00 AM   
angelikaJ


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Another thing is that the clothes dryer should be on a 220 line and that should have it's own breaker.
So half the house shouldn't be getting screwed up everytime she uses it.





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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:49:36 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Also the low watt bulbs can help. 


If ThatDamnedPanda is correct, than the bulbs are likely 400 watt or 1000 watt.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:51:00 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Also the low watt bulbs can help. 


If ThatDamnedPanda is correct, than the bulbs are likely 400 watt or 1000 watt.



that would trump the dryer ??

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 8:34:03 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

that would trump the dryer ??



From everything Wolfy described, I suspect that her in laws did their own wiring.  If they're growing less than legal things, they'd have to.  It's common to tap the dryer circuit to run the lights.

If so, a simple solution is to run the dryer only when the lights' timer has them off.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 8:49:12 AM   
thishereboi


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Well, if that is the case, had it been me, I would have shown her how to tell which one is the problem or marked it for her so she will know in the future. We had one at work that used to blow if you used the toaster while the microwave was working. The boss put a piece of tape on it, because it got reset so often. 

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 8:51:17 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Can't she tell by visual inspection which breaker needs reset?


Some times it is hard to see, but if you lightly push on it, the ones that have tripped will be kinda squishy.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 9:07:20 AM   
allthatjaz


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Hi Wolfy, I don't know diddly squat about electrics and so I'm getting my partner, who is an electrical engineer, to dictate.............Mmmm I just love being dicated to
There are commonly two sorts of fuse boards in houses. The old style that would of had wire fuses and the more modern type that has a trip or circuit breaker. The second type only needs the press of a button or a flick of a switch to re-set it. Both old and new sorts are current limiting devices.
Your suspicions that when the house was built (40 years ago) the circuits were rated for less power than a modern house of today, is probably correct, so the possible solution, if you have a modern circuit breaker, is to change the breaker on that circuit, to a higher rated one. This shouldn't be more than a half hour job.
If you have an old style wire fuse board, a thicker fuse wire that's higher rated will do the same thing, however, its commonly excepted now that these old style boards are dangerous and can be a fire hazard. One last thing. The wiring in the house might not be up to continuous use at higher ratings and could itself be a fire risk.
In conclusion; have someone inspect the wiring and if its adequate for the higher current rating, change the fuse rating for that circuit. If its not adequate then they need to rewire.



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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 9:25:31 AM   
pahunkboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

that would trump the dryer ??



From everything Wolfy described, I suspect that her in laws did their own wiring.  If they're growing less than legal things, they'd have to.  It's common to tap the dryer circuit to run the lights.

If so, a simple solution is to run the dryer only when the lights' timer has them off.



My last place was terrible for power.   I knew it had limits- so I did not let things even plugged in  (some)

We moved- so it is fine for me now.    Many fires are electrical around here... and most happen in cold weather.

Even if it does not burn she risks shorting the line- and when that happens it is very hard to trouble shoot.   IE-  it would have to be replaced.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 1:31:37 PM   
IceDemeter


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Hello again!

I may be off, but I seem to recall that the UK uses primarily 220V house wiring (instead of the 120V that is common in N America) - which would explain the dryer being on the same circuit as other things (which isn't really common here).

Allthatjaz's "in conclusion" is the most important thing --- if the wiring isn't rated for the higher current, then changing out the circuit breaker or fuse to a higher rating is the most dangerous thing that you can do. The fuse or circuit breaker is there to protect the wire - if it allows more current than the wire can handle continuously, then there no longer is any protection.

The easiest and cheapest thing to do is to make sure that something else is off when you turn the dryer on.

The next would be to get an electrician to check the wiring and see what it is rated for - if whoever did the original wiring did happen to over-size it (not likely, but you can hope), then you can just up the amperage on the breaker.

Next up would be if the wiring isn't oversized but you have room in the panel for a new breaker - in which case an electrician could put in a new breaker just for the garage and put all of the lights and pumps in the garage on their own circuit.

If nothing is going to change, then I do strongly recommend two things:
1 - that you make a point of testing the action on all of the breakers to make sure that none of them seem to be sticking (clearly labelling what is feeding what at the same time could be handy, too)
2 - that you get a really good surge protector bar for all of your electronics --- they are seeing a surge every time that the power is going off and on with the breakers, which will damage them

Again, good luck!

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 1:49:57 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Hi Wolfy, I don't know diddly squat about electrics and so I'm getting my partner, who is an electrical engineer, to dictate.............Mmmm I just love being dicated to
There are commonly two sorts of fuse boards in houses. The old style that would of had wire fuses and the more modern type that has a trip or circuit breaker. The second type only needs the press of a button or a flick of a switch to re-set it. Both old and new sorts are current limiting devices.
Your suspicions that when the house was built (40 years ago) the circuits were rated for less power than a modern house of today, is probably correct, so the possible solution, if you have a modern circuit breaker, is to change the breaker on that circuit, to a higher rated one. This shouldn't be more than a half hour job.
If you have an old style wire fuse board, a thicker fuse wire that's higher rated will do the same thing, however, its commonly excepted now that these old style boards are dangerous and can be a fire hazard. One last thing. The wiring in the house might not be up to continuous use at higher ratings and could itself be a fire risk.
In conclusion; have someone inspect the wiring and if its adequate for the higher current rating, change the fuse rating for that circuit. If its not adequate then they need to rewire.



Do not even THINK of doing this!!!!!!

If you have a 14 amp circuit, you need a 14 amp breaker.  If you have a 20 amp circuit, you need a 20 amp breaker.  If you up the breaker size, you will have fewer breaker trips and more houses burning.

You actually should have some GFI outlets for the plugs in the garage, kitchen, and bathrooms.  But if you put those in, then you'll have even more resets.




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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 3:47:25 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


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Holy cow!
Thank you all for your help.

Yes, some of the stuff they're growing is technically less than legal, but they have permits for it and all that jazz because the Father has a very bad back and is in a lot of pain. They also have some normal herbs (I think I spotted some thyme last I was able to have a peek - I'm not allowed back there when the parents are home though because they think I'd flip out... even though my mother was a regular smoker too lmao).

The lamps have to be high wattage to imitate sunlight, I have no idea if you can find lower wattage sun lamps o.O

And yeah, there is something of a selfish inch of me that says, "Gawd, this is an expensive and delicate computer, and it's being attacked!" But I also worry about all the other random electronics that have any sort of processor or circuit type of thing - mine or theirs - that could also get screwed up by too much random power, messing with plugs and cable boxes and TVs that have the wires damaged in any way, etc...

She has no idea what breaker is what, they reset the whole house - apparently there's a big breaker that she can reset that just turns everything off, which is the only one she knows. I think proper labeling would definitely help, it's just a matter of finding a time when a stay-at-home housewife is out so that she doesn't chase us away with a broom for trying to handle potentially dangerous equipment lol...
The laundry room and garage are apparently on the same breaker, since it is those things that are the only things that mess up. Nothing else in the house does. Until she resets it of course, then ALL the lights go out, clocks need to be reset, my computer needs to be restarted half a dozen times before it can shake off the nasty power outage...

Lights can't be lowered because they're apparently at just the right height to give off the right amount of light and heat for their little garden. And the pumps are a continuously flowing pipe of water underneath, that is being circulated - I don't think they ever go off.

I honestly can't check what that stuff is without putting on my ninja outfit if the Mother is at home - she doesn't like me poking my nose in potentially hazardous places, such as the breaker box. Though I would hazard a guess that since this is an older house, the plugs are of a lower wattage - but I think they did have to replace them when they got the new dryer last spring (long before the power trips started), so the plug looks new and had been working for a good four or five months before their new endeavors.

Again, thank you all for all the excellent advice!
I have a feeling that what needs to be done is to talk to the Father about this stuff, since he's the only one that can talk some sense into the Mother. We'll try to sneak down and figure out which breaker is which on our own when she's out of the house next (which might be a while -sigh-). I know at night the lights aren't on, since that's when I do my own laundry and I've never tripped the breaker once, so I guess we'll just have to either A: convince her that she needs to change her routine, or B: get her to turn the lights off when she works. Or once we've figured out which breaker is which, just make her turn the correct one off instead of ALL of them.

That's honestly the most that Master and I can do, due to the fact that it isn't our house and we don't actually have much (or any, honestly) say about how things are done around here. But we're definitely going to make some suggestions to his dad about the situation. I actually don't know if he even KNOWS about the breaker trips and resets yet!


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 3:54:13 PM   
KatyLied


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I didn't check your ages, but is there a reason you have to live with his parents?  Perhaps a more functional living arrangement would be preferable.  What you are describing would drive me nuts!

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 4:05:14 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


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Yeah, it drives me nuts too.

I'm 22, Master's 24. We're both college students, and the job market in Portland is pretty bad, so we're out of jobs. Can't afford our own place at the time, so we're stuck living in his parents' house until we can find stable income enough to live on our own. And believe you me, we're both looking!

Only money we get is from his VA money for school, and the measly amounts of money that my fathers sends me because he is legally required to. Which gives us maybe a smidgeon over a thousand every month, and then 350 goes to a car loan that Master got years ago when he had money, more for our car insurance, a good 300 for my rent, and what we're left with is just another 300 for gas and food, and our car is a gas guzzler (1986 old cop car ftw). It's a good thing Master's parents are nice, otherwise we'd be going without food for at least a week towards the end of each month.

If we knew anyone up here in Portland who would let us live in a room for 300 a month, and give us some of their extra food (and think about how likely that situation would occur) we'd be out of here in a heartbeat. His parents are sweethearts, I love them dearly, but living with them can drive one nuts!!!


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 4:24:35 PM   
barelynangel


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Right now is a good time to find part-time seasonal work.  If you are near a mall or really any stores, most are hiring right now.  It may not be much but it may give you a leg up and savings that may hold you over.  You or he could probably try UPS or Fedex even to see if they need seasonal help and they pay pretty well, even part-time.  I also believe they will work with people on schedules etc.   You may be able to get your foot in the door for maybe non-seasonal part-time.  Grant it, its not fun, and its a lot of manual work.  I know a lot of their work is done on the midnight shift etc. 

As far as the laundry issue, since you have to do your clothes anyway, you could offer to do all the laundry and then you will be able to do what needs to be done. 

Anyway, living with parents aren't ideal but unfortunately it means you have to deal with how they do things.  I think its a good idea to talk to dad, but you may want to make sure you have a plan before doing so.  The mom has found something that works, it sounds like you will need to give her different options for her to maybe take your ideas into consideration.

Good Luck,

angel

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 4:38:32 PM   
KatyLied


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Ah, it is tough, especially in these economic times.  My eldest son is in grad school and living with me, sometimes you gotta suck it up and make the best of it.  Hopefully you can talk to master's dad and get something going as far as having mom reschedule some of the house work.  I would be concerned about the circuits and electric fires.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 4:42:01 PM   
pahunkboy


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I actually sold my electric stove--- as it would cost more then the stove costs to run a 220. (big house here)

I will wait for a gas stove, in the mean time I use a hot plate, and microwave.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 6:26:32 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Okay.. this has been driving me absolutely bonkers for a good few weeks now.

Master's mother keeps resetting the power in the house because there's too much stuff running in one area at once.
They have these lights and pumps in the garage that need to run 24/7 - all these other things in the house that needs to run regularly, and so whenever she turns the dryer on it shorts out the power on half the house, and so she resets the fuse almost daily to get it back on and to force it to run ALL these things at once; which can take a good two or three resets to get the house to obey.

The thing is.. I have VERY huge feeling that at some point she's going to reset it, and nothing will come back on, because the fuse will have been destroyed completely. I have tried to tell her my suspicions that this old house (built in like... the 40's or something) cannot handle that much power being pumped through the fuses, which is why they're fucking up, and if she keeps forcing that much power through them, the least that'll happen is a bust fuse - I'm afraid that the worst might be that old old old wires will melt or get damaged and she's going to have to pay money to get an electrician out to rewire the damaged portion of the house. And that's only if the damaged wires don't catch anything on fire.

Do my suspicions and fears hold any weight? Am I worrying for nothing, or is Master's mother going to dig herself a big hole that she can't get out of???

Are there any electricians here that know a thing or two about this stuff?



Think and understand ohms law, that is a good start, wiring meant for an ancient workload might struggle with modern needs. Think length of cable and guage of cable, too thin and too long just adds to the load, but if circuit breakers are fitted, they at least can help identify where if anything is drawing too much current and there quite possibly is going wrong.  Washing machines with an internal water heater are notorious for a large current draw, think a kettle inside something heavy driven by a relatively small electric motor. The more the washer is filled, the more current is drawnas that motor ha to shift.

But as we are now in the age of ecology, perhaps failing electrical supplies are our teacher, turn off, disconnect or whatever that which is not neaded for the life that we lead, for no one needs to light a room they are not actually using and similar thoughts to what other electrical devices there is in a darkened room. All we have to do is learn that electricity is not free and every use of it costs money that could be better used elsewhere.

As to fuses, well here in Britain for electrical appliances, the fuse is often twice what is the maximum  current draw, but everything here that is considered portable has its own fuse in addition to the household circuit board, I am unsure if this is the case over there, but the result is a blown fuse in an electrical appliance might indicate a failure of that appliance, long before it trips the main circuit fuse, where one is potentially clueless as to what caused the over current that tripped the device. But perhaps one thing may be worth a mention, circuit breakers age with the frequency of resetting, and there become less tolerant of whatever it protects and there just gets worse thereafter,tripping for less than it's rated capability.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 6:33:26 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WolfyMontgomery

Holy cow!
Thank you all for your help.

Yes, some of the stuff they're growing is technically less than legal, but they have permits for it and all that jazz because the Father has a very bad back and is in a lot of pain. They also have some normal herbs (I think I spotted some thyme last I was able to have a peek - I'm not allowed back there when the parents are home though because they think I'd flip out... even though my mother was a regular smoker too lmao).

The lamps have to be high wattage to imitate sunlight, I have no idea if you can find lower wattage sun lamps o.O


You can, but lower wattage means less light for the plants, so it will have a direct effect on both the yield and the potency. Considering that most indoor grows need to get maximum yield per square foot to make themselves worth the effort, that's not a tradeoff most growers are willing to make. Most people design their system from the top down - they start with the brightest light their grow space can handle, and everything they add from that point is custom-tailored to  complement the lights.

Since you say he's got a medical certification, he's not breaking the law. Right? So I'm not breaking the law by answering your question. If the grow room is the source of the electrical problems (and it sounds as though it is), there are things that can be done to manage the power usage. Trouble is, it sounds as though your options are limited, because it's not your grow. Some people use low-wattage fluorescent tubes to start off their seedlings or their clones, and that's a workable option for really young plants. The tubes give you the same spectrum as a metal halide bulb, at a fraction of the wattage, but at a much lower intensity. As the young plants mature, they need the brighter lights, so most growers switch to the brighter (and power-hungry)  metal halide bulbs for most of the vegetative stage.  There's really no other way to do it. They're making a lot of progress with CFLs and LED lights, and in a few years they may be practical options for home grows, but right now people are pretty much stuck with the brute force approach of high intensity bulbs.

An average home grow can easily suck 2000 or 2500 watts at 20 or even 25 amps. If memory serves, the ballast for a 1000W HPS lamp draws around 9 or 9.5 amps, a 600W about 5 amps, and a 400W about 3.3 or 3.5. Many grow operations run one 400W for small plants and one 1000W for mature plants, so you're looking at 13 amps there right off the bat. Add some pumps and a couple of fans, and you can easily be looking at 20 amps just for the grow room. That's why most growers install a dedicated circuit for their grows.

Your people evidently didn't do that, so my suggestion would be to distribute the load to other circuits in the house. Identify other circuits in nearby areas of the house that do not draw a lot of power (storerooms or whatever, any part of the house where there aren't many lights or in which the lights are seldom used), and run a cord to the grow area. Use that cord to power the fans and the pumps. It's not a perfect solution, but it's better than just flipping breakers every time the lights go out.

I think you should definitely talk to the father about this, because it sounds as though the mother has no idea what she's doing here. Any time a breaker is tripping that often, it's sending you a clear message - you have way too much load on that circuit. If she keeps monkeying with the breakers instead of fixing the underlying problem, this is a potentially very serious safety issue - especially if any of the equipment in the grow room is jerry-rigged, which is common with home grows. You could all wake up dead some morning.

If the father isn't persuaded by the safety concerns, I suggest pointing out to him that frequent interruptions in the light cycle of the plants can have a serious effect on the potency of the product. These plants are very sensitive to their light cycles - in simplest terms, the number of hours of light they get each day is what causes them to move from the vegetative (growing) stage, and start producing the alkaloid compounds that make them so special. If the light cycle is interrupted for long, the plants can become confused and either move into that mature stage too early, or not at all. Some of the equipment can also be damaged by power outages and surges, and that gear can be pricy.

Good luck. If you have any specific questions, feel free to PM me. I don't check in here very often anymore, but I'll try to make an effort to watch my inbox.

Edit: Oh, I'm surprised I forgot about this trick. You can sometimes take a significant amount of load off of a circuit by switching out the incandescent bulbs on the circuit with CFL bulbs. Depending on how that part of the house is lighted, you can sometimes save several amps by making the switch. A 100W incandescent draws close to a full amp, a comparable CFL pulls about 1/10 of that (if memory serves.)


< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 11/21/2010 7:23:13 PM >


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