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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 7:49:41 PM   
Aneirin


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The sad thing is, although we all have it, electricity is so misunderstood by many, we treat it as if it was harmless when in reality if treated wrong can be the very death of us if not by electrocution, the rapid boiling of our cells, it is fire when wires and connection start to burn. Burning is wires and connections becoming overloaded and heat caused by current overcoming the insulation and providing a fuel for a flame to burn, enough to perhaps set light to any iother dry combustable material.

That house for me with knowledge of electricity sounds like a scary place to be, a place to be rid of as soon as one can get out. Failing that, get a good electrician and pay them to do a full appraial and there act on their recommendations as soon as possible, or just do as in paragraph one, get out as soon as you can if the owner decides the cost is too much.

But as to the indoor garden as a source of pain management, would it not just be better to  seek medical care to get the back situation sorted out. Or is it in America questionable plants can be grown, if it is for medical care ?


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/21/2010 8:32:36 PM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Or is it in America questionable plants can be grown, if it is for medical care ?



That is a massive gray area.  Many states (for example, Colorado, New Mexico, and California) permit a small amount to be cultivated for medical usage.  In Colorado, it is six plants per patient.  As long as certain rules are followed, it is legal under state law.

That said, it is technically illegal under federal law.  However, the Feds use a fluid interpretation of the laws - if someone is abiding by state law, usually they will overlook that grower.  I have also heard that grows below a certain threshold are ignored - I've heard that threshold to be fifty plants, and to be 100 plants.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/22/2010 3:07:59 AM   
allthatjaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz

Hi Wolfy, I don't know diddly squat about electrics and so I'm getting my partner, who is an electrical engineer, to dictate.............Mmmm I just love being dicated to
There are commonly two sorts of fuse boards in houses. The old style that would of had wire fuses and the more modern type that has a trip or circuit breaker. The second type only needs the press of a button or a flick of a switch to re-set it. Both old and new sorts are current limiting devices.
Your suspicions that when the house was built (40 years ago) the circuits were rated for less power than a modern house of today, is probably correct, so the possible solution, if you have a modern circuit breaker, is to change the breaker on that circuit, to a higher rated one. This shouldn't be more than a half hour job.
If you have an old style wire fuse board, a thicker fuse wire that's higher rated will do the same thing, however, its commonly excepted now that these old style boards are dangerous and can be a fire hazard. One last thing. The wiring in the house might not be up to continuous use at higher ratings and could itself be a fire risk.
In conclusion; have someone inspect the wiring and if its adequate for the higher current rating, change the fuse rating for that circuit. If its not adequate then they need to rewire.



Do not even THINK of doing this!!!!!!

If you have a 14 amp circuit, you need a 14 amp breaker.  If you have a 20 amp circuit, you need a 20 amp breaker.  If you up the breaker size, you will have fewer breaker trips and more houses burning.

You actually should have some GFI outlets for the plugs in the garage, kitchen, and bathrooms.  But if you put those in, then you'll have even more resets.





You didn't read to the end of my post which was very relevant to the bit you quoted.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/22/2010 11:03:19 AM   
ricken


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Wolfy, the folks your living with ain't gonna change, it wont happen, forget it....I didn't read all the stuff about electricity that people wrote, but you ain't shelling out the money to re-wire their home so it don't matter.

Invest in a REAL surge protecter with a battery back up about a $100-125, and look into renter insurance for when the place burns down...

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/23/2010 8:56:37 AM   
MercTech


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Ok, it may be time to bite the bullet and get the job done right.

In the 1930s, houses were often built with 30 amp service TOTAL. Up until the mid 60s, you often find houses with total service load of 50 amps. Today, the average new house is built with 200 amp service. What is the rating on the main fuse for the house?

You need an electrical contractor to do a whole house upgrade. The insulation on wiring does not last forever and holder homes were built with natural rubber and silk insulation that becomes brittle and falls off. You will even find bare wires on ceramic insulators nailed to roof beams on some. I went through that renovating a bungalow in Florida a while back.

Doing a patchwork approach and "make do" concepts like getting lower wattage bulbs is just setting yourself up for an electrical fire.

Get a contractor out to do a bid on an upgrade. Then, get two more contractors out and compare the bids.

Then, take the bids to the bank and look for a home upgrade loan.

I inherited my mom's house a few years ago. I've got the bids in hand and have talked to the bank. When things warm up in the spring I'll have a dozen or so laborers pulling new wiring through walls and a new breaker panel installed and be done with it in a week. I'll be able to run the coffee pot and the microwave at the same time while the air conditioner is running finally.

Oh yes, and after talking to my insurance provider, the savings on fire insurance for doing the upgrade will pay for the upgrade in five years.

Stefan

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/23/2010 2:02:06 PM   
TheOldMan


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My house is a little over 100 years old at this point and it had a 60 amp service on fuse panels when I got it.

I went along just fine for about 15 years on that but eventually I'd added/rewired too many circuits and just plain ran out of space and more important, POWER. It started slowly, popping fuses every couple of weeks but over a couple of years it got to where it was popping them almost daily, the draw was just too much for that old service.

I bit the bullet and spent $2,000.00 + to upgrade to 200 amp service and the problems VANISHED.

I just spent another $1000.00 to run a 100 amp subpanel to my garage so I can run my air compressor to work on my antique cars.

Do It, it's worth it for peace of mind.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/23/2010 5:57:36 PM   
WolfyMontgomery


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I would, TheOldMan, but two very large facts are holding me back.

1- I'm a poor college student who usually only has, at most, about $300 in my bank account, and usually it likes sitting around $5-$50. $2000 is about a hundred times too far out of my budget, and because I have no job (not to mention not enough credit on my own, being young), no one will give a poor student a big loan like that.

and 2 - Not my house, and probably won't ever be. It seems extremely pointless to spend money I don't have fixing someone else's house even though I do happen to live there *now*.

I will mention it to Master's parents - but I doubt they'd be interested in that for a good many years - they still have a car they haven't fixed, they need to replace their fridge, and their washer and dryer when Master and I move out (the ones in use will leave with us if there are washer/dryer outlets in our future home since he was the one who bought them), and a good number of other things that have gone unfixed because they couldn't afford the few hundred dollars to fix them, much less $2000 - and their credit is so bad loan officers would laugh them out of the building.

Now, if anyone could tell me a sure fire way to win the lottery without spending more than $10, then sure, I'll fix their house - and I'll even pay to fix the house of whoever helped me win the million+ dollars.

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/24/2010 2:22:44 AM   
Aneirin


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Could the fact that nothing gets repaired be down to the use of the 'medication', that I know from times past kind of makes one less inclined to do anything. Pain management I know is a difficult thing and I know pot sometimes is the only relief, I once knew a chap who was so anti drug use who eventually succumbed to pot to control a spinal disease. But there is control and there is addiction, could it be the house holders have become addicted to the medicine they grow, with that, has the procrastination mentallity set in. They don't have the money perhaps, but do they work or are they dependant on savings or welfare, what is the situation and can that be remedied by a change in direction.

But I do understand perhaps the trap that the householders are in, self produced and administered pain management as opposed to what I understand as the high cost of US medical care, perhaps a very real indication of the failings of the US medical care system, the poor have to resort to home grown herbs if they are to have pain relief. Then perhaps the unjust denigration of the poor that use 'illegal' drugs, because they cannot afford the pharmaceuticals on offer to the more financially able. But one thing I have come to understand, those who live in ivory towers have no clue as what life is to those far beneath them.

But as to your problem in a house that lethal, if anything, deck the place out with smoke alarms and fire extinguishers and make a plan on how to get out should the worst happen at anytime. Smoke alarms should be very cheap, here they are ridiculously cheap it is hard not to have them, mine I got on a similarly low student income off ebay straight from the supplier, no more than in your currency, $24 and I have a dectector for both kinds of fire, the smoulderer and the fast flare and no smoking does not set them off, flies do sometimes and when I burn the toast, but at least I know they are working. when I sleep, because my home is one room, before I sleep, I watch for the led flash to say they are doing their job. But I test them weekly as we have had two fires in this block in the past two years and it is a timber framed building with plaster board walls I know from past construction experience, burns out in about 6 minutes once a fire gets hold.

( oh, see if you can get freebies regards the detectors and extinguishers, sometimes fire departments give them away for free as they realise such a small cost can save far more money lost to everyone, not to forget lives by having an inexpensive early warning)

I have fire extinguishers located around, dry powder in the kitchen and dry powder by the door, a multi use extinguisher for many kinds of fire, now seeing as BCF is banned, the best I know from fire fighting experience. Some extinguishers were obtained and others I bought, nothing fancy, just the type used in automobiles, the cheap disposables, but they are better than nothing at all.

I f you can't stop the possibility of fire, at least you can guard against it by having a plan and an early warning, as I here, in my place, well, its oldies, and they were the ones that had the smokies in the past two years, just pans left and forgotten on stove tops, but enough to warn me to get detectors and after the first smokie my detectors alerted me to the second and I alerted every other home to the possibility of fire before the door of the source was kicked in fire extingishers in hand and the fire brigade called.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/24/2010 2:31:17 AM >


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/24/2010 2:52:51 AM   
WolfyMontgomery


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Nope, they're just that poor. They borrow money from my Master - who only gets VA money for college at the moment (and not much at that) just to help pay the bills sometimes.

And I doubt he smokes much of it. I never see him smoke it when he is home. I believe a majority of it goes to their son, and I don't even know if they grow the max amount (I think I've only seen like... one or two recognizable plants in the garage). So I highly doubt they are addicted - especially not Master's mother - she's home 24/7 and doesn't smoke anything, or drink booze except at holidays, just cleans, chatters with people on the phone, and sits watching TV, she's you're old fashioned fifties house wife lol.

They do everything they can fix themselves without paying for things. Not to mention the Father works two jobs, well. But anything that can be fixed for free, will be fixed. It really is just a lack of funds issue.

The things that need to be fixed have needed to be so for years - the crap in the garage is only a few months old... since like September or something.

We do have tons of smoke alarms, which I am thankful for. Though I may look into getting a couple more fire extinguishers too.

< Message edited by WolfyMontgomery -- 11/24/2010 2:54:01 AM >


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/24/2010 3:12:16 AM   
Aneirin


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I suppose if we look at the reality of life, nowhere and no one is safe from disaster, so in order to make the best possible, we just have precautions we must live with, guard against fire like we service brakes on vehicles, in order to survive in this increasingly mechanised world, we need the safety devices to just say stop, we control the enviroment we live in, as to do other is to suggest we have really not progressed very far.

My place I protect because of others and because of me, for I use this place as a workshop for making my jewellery,that being I have heating equipment for metalworking, naughty I know, but I am very, very careful and have amongst my detectors, even gas and carbon monoxide detecting devices which all get tested regularly as my life depends on them.

But why do I worry about my hobbies and what they entail, for I know the oldies have things they shouldn't have and on upper floors at that, but my devices guard me and others and all of them are independant of the household electrics.The oldies have what they have because they are pensioners stuck on a few pounds more than my allowance and if I feel the cold, they do worse and where this house is, is bloody cold in winter, it gets full blast the weather off the Atlantic. Interestingly, when these houses were built they were built when electricity was a cheap fuel, so there was no provision for anything else, now electricity is so expensive, very few of our status are extravagant with the stuff, but perhaps using it meagerly is the way to go, back to times past when light and heat was a commodity that was not wasted, lighting and heating nothing if one is not there.


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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/24/2010 5:08:19 AM   
angelikaJ


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Wolfy,

They are probably eligible for fuel assistance.
That would get them a new refridgerator for free.



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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/24/2010 8:36:54 AM   
ricken


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Wolfy,
There is another little issue that MAY need to be addressed by someone that knows the laws a little better but...
If they are doing something against the law (even if the local law enforcment/gov agency doesn't enforce the law) they may be setting themslves up for problems with the insurance company if a fire breaks out from electrical problems and they using the power to do something against the law.
Lets face it those cute commercils that tell you how much they care only count when money is flowing in their direction...

Also I don't know about there but in this area people can also get their home insulated and furnace repaired or changed on a sliding pay scale, my neighbour got a new furnace for free last week

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/24/2010 9:43:17 AM   
Termyn8or


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FR

Glad I came back to this thread. Now I see the situation a bit better. You don't want to do any major work to someone else's house.

To fix the problem there are still options. Those lights are generally 400 W each, and there are two types. They will be on timers for part of the growing cycle, but at some point many have them all on full blast for a time to, umm, increase the quality of the yield. The last system I saw had four of these bulbzillas, totalling 1,600 watts. The problem should only occur once in a while, because burning all the lights all the time will burn up the plants. However it is still a nuisance plus.

The trick is to tap off of more than one branch circuit. If they can tap the dryer circuit they can tap another. Split it up. A 400 W light is about 4 amps. Of course times four that's 1,600 W, roughly 16 amps. That should trip a 15 amp breaker or blow a 15 amp fuse. Splitting in two may do, 8 amps each. That's if they're on that scale. If it's bigger than that other steps might be required.

In any given house there are bound to be circuits that are underloaded. Pick them. If there is a provision though for an electric stove, that could be tapped because that's a 50 amp circuit.

That's what I got after reading more of the OP's posts here. I originally thought of this from the perspective of the homeowner, but now I see that's not the case. Splitting up the load is the key to solving this. It might take a bit more wire, but it's better than any major overhaul or upgrade.

Also, though I don't do it, for certain things in the house, consider a UPS. An Uninterruptable Power Supply can help alot. Plug in the computers, cordless phones and at least a clock or two, so if a breaker trips it doesn't wreak havoc.

Better to solve the problem though. From an engineering standpoint you have one of two scenarios. If you have fuses, you have to keep buying fuses. With breakers, while they are designed to work for a very long time, they can only trip so many times. Eventually the breakers would have to be replaced. all the cheap brands are worse, but still must meet standards. A high quality breaker like a Square D QO series might trip hundreds of times and be fine, while the elcheapo could go bad alot sooner. In either case, don't overload the circuit. The tripping process is not something it should do all the time, and by design the actual current at which it trips will decrease, not increase. That means more nuisances.

For now, most breakers indicate they've tripped by the handle moving only partway to the off position. This can make it hard to figure out which one has tripped. But if you feel them (in a row hopefully) you'll notice one is just a bit out of place. That one must be taken all the way to the off position and then back to on to reset. Most breakers, if they trip without the handle (lever ? ) moving are defective. Perhaps all that is needed is to replace the breaker. Of course you use the same rating. If I could look at the place and know EVERYTHING on that circuit, sometimes a 15 amp can be replaced by a 20 amp, but don't do it unless you know exactly what you're doing. I don't recommend it really, but if necessary, all the old wiring has to be inspected for oxidation and all kinds of other things. That is very important if there is any of that old cloth insulated wire in the place.

Also, if you know anyone with knowledge of (and a healthy respect for) electricity, a test light or "Wiggie" can identify which breaker is tripped, which will solve the immediate problem at least.

T

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RE: Old Houses and Electricity - 11/25/2010 6:58:26 AM   
firmobeisance


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Termyn8or is entirely correct, but there is an easier way to split up this load. If there are any circuits (meaning rooms or areas) which aren't interrupted when masters mother does her reset, you can run an extension cord from there to your computer, which I think is your own greatest issue. Another solution would be to get a UPS - a surge protector with a built-in back-up battery. A year ago I found a very large UPS at the Goodwill in Salem for about 7 bucks. The battery failed a month later, but the replacement is only $25. Then she could do her breaker dance and your computer would stay on during the momentary trip. Normally, the only damage that happens when power gets interrupted is that you lose any unsaved work, like this forum post I am writing. Think about it, computers are electrical and electricity fails unexpectedly, by nature they should accommodate that.
The whole thing about lowering the lights is preposterous. Electricity flows downhill figuratively, like water, but for all practical considerations is entirely unaffected by gravity. Also, the breaker (what you call fuse) is designed to be the weakest link to keep people alive. While it would be prudent to replace it with a fresh one of the same amperage, NEVER install a higher amperage breaker or the resulting fire may kill you.

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