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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By: malterwitty Tags: * AFGHANISTAN * GREA


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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 1:41:53 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Hopefully those of you who sniff at the deaths of mere heroin users and mutter: 'You did it to yourself - you deserve it.' are similarly immune to caring about people who die in vehicles they have chosen to drive, planes they have chosen to fly in, homes they have chosen to live in, at the hands of people they have chosen to spend time with ...

Sorry.  Huge difference between the terms "accidental" and "intentional".



There's no such thing as an intentional overdose. People do what they do, and sometimes they take the risk that they will die doing it. This is true of almost any activity you care to get involved in.

Actually, it's probably not quite as simple as that. People who get killed in aircraft accidents choose to fly. They make a conscious effort to do something that might result in their death. Heroin addicts, more often than not, do not choose. It's in the nature of addiction that their freedom to choose is taken from them. They risk their lives because they have to.

Should I feel sorry for people who have chosen to do risky stuff? Or the ones who had no choice?

/rhetorical device (in case you wondered)

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 1:53:33 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Not really, vehicles, planes and homes all carry good an healthy connotations, so death in either is sad,


I think the point you are making here is weak, but generally, yes, I agree.

quote:

but heroin users choose to do what they do despite education that says do this and it may lead to their death. Many have chosen to heed that education, so it is there, but there are others who choose to ignore the education and do their own thing, they were warned and now they suffer the consequences.


I myself wonder why, when we are surrounded by copious evidence of just how dangerous this drug is people still choose to try it. But it seems to me to be a little harsh to tell someone who has made a stupid, stupid choice, perhaps many years ago, and is now trapped in hell: 'Well, you knew what you were getting into'.

quote:

Simailarly those who engage in dangerous sports with a very real possibility of death, they are educated, they know the risks and take every precaution against shit happening , yet they carry on regardless, they die in the pursuit of their leisure, yes, it is sad, but they knew the risks.


Agreed.

quote:

But the difference between a dangerous sportsman and a heroin user, is misusing drugs is illegal and through the misuse of drugs crime is committed in using the stuff and the mechanism of supply and funding the stuff.


'Illegal' isn't really an argument in my opinion. Tobacco and Alcohol kill many millions more people than Heroin worldwide, but are accepted and sold by companies for profit.

quote:

I wonder, if recreational drugs became totally unavailable, would we see so much crime committed on others ?


I would legalise Heroin tomorrow given the chance. I'd want it to be sold in Chemist's shops very cheaply and cleanly to undercut the dealers, and I think it would cut crime in the UK by 70% almost immediately. I'd use the money saved in crime prevention on education and treatment programmes. But I'd introduce the death sentence for selling crack cocaine, just to keep a bit of balance.



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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 2:49:34 PM   
LadyPact


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Status: offline 		No such thing as an intentional overdose?  You're talking to the wrong person on that one.

Also, a slight correction on terms.  The first recreational high is always a choice.  A using addict is under the obsession and compulsion of their drug use, which removes their ability to choose.  An addict in recovery makes a choice to stay clean every day.


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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 3:36:12 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		The thing is, we have to have responsibility for our own actions, if we choose to do something which goes wrong, then it is ourselves who are to blame, no one else. Fine, if someone is in dire strairs, there are people who care, thanfully for that, but those people care because it is either their profession and they are paid to care, or they are genuine caring people who care for others, quite often unrewarded and unnoticed with detriment to themselves, so addicts will be looked after by the caring professions, we are that sort of country that still puts people first before money, for how long that will continue, I do not know.

But, you may remember the last government making noises about the health cost of smokers and alcohol abusers, and that the NHS should not pick up the tab for people who despite the education available damage their health through tobacco and drink, yet if it is that dangerous, why is it's sale not prohibited the goverment as usual speaks two faced, but that is another story. What I am trying to say here, as is indicated drug users who have come unstuck are cared for despite the fact that they because of their lifestyle possibly pay nothing into the system, yet the healthcare is available to them when they need it, they are being cared for by the relevant professions, so that being, why should I get into a knot about these people who are be looked after already.

But perhaps my oppinion is jaded somewhat, why, because I suffered an attempted murder on myself by four guys high on crack cocaine, so as far as those who use drugs are concerned, to me, if they choose to play with fire, they must be prepared to get burned by it, and, it is their own fault, no one elses. Care thet will get, but perhaps it is a bit much to seek sympathy.

Making drugs legal, I dont know about that, if smoking and drinking causes so many problems and they are perfectly legal, perhaps drugs are best the way they are, banned so the conscious amongst us may choose to say no.

Driving under the influence of drink is bad enough, and I know people drive under the influence of drugs, but they do so illegally and are taking a chance on not getting caught, but if it was made open season on drugs, tell me, do you think we would be living in a safer society or not, criminality is not the only consequence of mind altering substances.


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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 3:46:53 PM   
Aynne88


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Hopefully those of you who sniff at the deaths of mere heroin users and mutter: 'You did it to yourself - you deserve it.' are similarly immune to caring about people who die in vehicles they have chosen to drive, planes they have chosen to fly in, homes they have chosen to live in, at the hands of people they have chosen to spend time with ...


Not really, vehicles, planes and homes all carry good an healthy connotations, so death in either is sad, but heroin users choose to do what they do despite education that says do this and it may lead to their death. Many have chosen to heed that education, so it is there, but there are others who choose to ignore the education and do their own thing, they were warned and now they suffer the consequences.

Simailarly those who engage in dangerous sports with a very real possibility of death, they are educated, they know the risks and take every precaution against shit happening , yet they carry on regardless, they die in the pursuit of their leisure, yes, it is sad, but they knew the risks.

But the difference between a dangerous sportsman and a heroin user, is misusing drugs is illegal and through the misuse of drugs crime is committed in using the stuff and the mechanism of supply and funding the stuff.

I wonder, if recreational drugs became totally unavailable, would we see so much crime committed on others ?



No. When they become totally LEGAL and available than the crime will stop. War on Drugs? What a fucking farce. Waste of lives and money.


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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 6:19:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Heroin addicts, more often than not, do not choose. It's in the nature of addiction that their freedom to choose is taken from them. They risk their lives because they have to.


Heroin use is a choice. The addiction is the need. Someone made that choice initially. That choice created the need.

If someone is speeding down the road at 100 mph and wraps themselves around a tree, i have no sympathy. If they wrap themselves around another car, my sympthy is with the other driver.

Its known about 23 - 25% of those who use herion will become addicted.

The odds of dying in a plane crash... 1 in 1,000,000. I like those odds far better.

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 7:19:12 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		So, people, it seems not much sympathy for drug addicts .....

Does this mean we are stuck with the failed policies of prohibition? With its attendant results of dying junkies, disease spread, enriching gangsters, bloating and corrupting law enforcement sectors, draining the public purse and (viz. Mexico) subverting entire countries?

Policies of prohibition have been enforced worldwide for upwards of half a century. If they are ever going to deliver a solution, they must have done so by now - somewhere or other.

Can anyone point to a place where prohibition has been a success, anywhere?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/23/2010 7:21:21 PM >

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 8:21:51 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:


Can anyone point to a place where prohibition has been a success, anywhere?


It gives people whose drug of choice is alcohol a way to feel superior.

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 8:28:58 PM   
AquaticSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I dare say those that use derivites of opium as a medicine, get it from legitimate sources, pharmceutical companies and such, so what they get is unlikely to be cut with crap that causes problems, so the difference between an illegal recreational drug user and a genuine patient is a very dfferent thing.


You miss the point.  The crop is THE ingredient in legal RXs.  There in lies the issue.



No. The issue is that you think a legal drug and an illegal one are the same. If you buy something on the black market you risk it being cut with dangerous things. It's one of the perils of addiction. Perhaps you should spend your helping addicts who are trying to recover if the situation bothers you.

I have a great deal of sympathy for addicts. I can understand their mindset as they started on their drug use. But that doesn't mean I'm going to be upset that their supply is dwindling. They need help, not more drugs.


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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 8:36:34 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
No. When they become totally LEGAL and available than the crime will stop. War on Drugs? What a fucking farce. Waste of lives and money.


"The Smartz are strong in this one, Obi-Wan".

It's been estimated that the cost of subsidising and legalising, in terms of knocking street dealers on the head by offering clean, known strength heroin legally, are less than 1,000th the cost of the street (and other) crime entailed to drive habits, together with treatment costs, hospital costs, and lost work days, plus the cost of the "War On Drugs".

But no politician will touch the idea because it's political suicide.

So we're doomed to lots of people dying ahead of time, and lots of crime, because we're led by cowards, and most voters are stupid.

That seems a bit off to me. Nothing else has worked thus far, and arseholes are still getting rich off the suffering of others, so why not at least try it?

Oh, and it's far easier to come off heroin when it clean than it is when it's "street" (assuming it's strong enough to be addictive in the first place, before anyone mentions the New York study). Just thought I'd mention that.

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 10:30:25 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz



I myself wonder why, when we are surrounded by copious evidence of just how dangerous this drug is people still choose to try it.




I can offer one of many possible reasons why so many people ignore the anti-drugs messages they receive.

At the university i work at, my students and I have often discussed drug use. My students note that alcohol and tobacco are legal and marijuana is not. They know that both legal drugs are at least as dangerous and probably far more dangerous and health-damaging than marijuana. Because of this, they conclude (quite reasonably IMHO) that the anti-marijuana messages they get are simply not credible.

This point has been made every time we have discussed drugs. So, as far as I am concerned, there is no doubt that the continuing criminalisation of marijuana discredits all anti-drugs campaigns in the minds of young people targeted by those campaigns.



< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/23/2010 10:33:10 PM >

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 10:35:24 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		We arent discussing pot here, but heroin, or so i thought.

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/23/2010 11:07:25 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Its known about 23 - 25% of those who use herion will become addicted.



Are you sure?  I thought that it was a lot higher than that. 

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 12:12:36 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Those are the most conservative estimates i can find according to the medical community. And you know if i posted anything highre it would have become a battle of numbers as opposed to a battle of addiction.

I feel great empathy for an addict. I feel no sympathy.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 1:26:48 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		War on drugs, how about making the supplier on the street guilty of a capital offence, instant life imprisonment, or where it exists execution, for sure would anyone want to risk being a dealer? Perhaps the laws are too soft and this encourages people who wish to deal, make the law hard, maybe we will see a decrease in dealers. My thinking on this is make the dealer the target of the law, call the dealer a major player and I understand supply of drugs might dry up, for who would want to be a dealer with a law that is so harsh. But if you deal in death and destruction should not their life be forfeit.

I often hear that police forces say they are not interested in the small time dealer for they want the big player behind them, I ask why not, make it so it is so severe to be the final contact, my guess is most would back off, just not worth anything they can make from the trade.

But, I believe the war on drugs is just an excuse for other things, we are being conned, for this war seems never ending. But one thing is certain, a natural fungus has depleted the opium harvest, thus throwing users into such problems, so, it shows destruction of the growth is having such a good effect at upsetting addiction.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 1:32:27 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

We arent discussing pot here, but heroin, or so i thought.


"So, as far as I am concerned, there is no doubt that the continuing criminalisation of marijuana discredits all anti-drugs campaigns in the minds of young people targeted by those campaigns."

I hope the bold and italic print makes my point clearer. Apologies if it wasn't clear enough first time round.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/24/2010 1:33:48 AM >

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 1:44:02 AM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		Hang on, but has happened, the young now know all about drugs, the various highs and no doubt where they can get them, but memories from my youth, we once had a drugs lecture at school and most myself included were left clueless to what drug use is, for it had never entered our lives before then. But drugs have been around since the year dot perhaps and we knew from history the UK fought a war for the control of Opium, but drugs were far from our lives. So what has happened to make drug use so fashionable, for now as I look, it is everywhere, in popular media, it is to many I talk to just at the same level as alcohol. As to why I have kept clear of any, well, I have never moved in circles where recreational drugs was around. Oh but I do rue the day the ex introduced me to pot, for from it came the addiction to tobacco although pot I no longer touch as I just can't be bothered with it, smoking I want rid of and that is hard to quit.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 2:25:41 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

War on drugs, how about making the supplier on the street guilty of a capital offence, instant life imprisonment, or where it exists execution, for sure would anyone want to risk being a dealer? Perhaps the laws are too soft and this encourages people who wish to deal, make the law hard, maybe we will see a decrease in dealers.


This is already the case in Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Iran and others. Each of these countries regularly executes people convicted of trafficking heroin and has done so for a number of decades now. Each of these countries counts their addict numbers in the hundreds of thousands. According to the media here in Australia, where heroin is readily available, each of these countries (excluding Iran) is also a major trafficking route for heroin to Australia,.

So employing the death penalty doesn't appear to have any noticeable effect.

Perhaps this is easier to understand when one compares the prices: according to my students, a gram of pure heroin in Thailand costs about $2. The same gram will fetch up to $1,000 on the streets here after cutting.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/24/2010 2:27:18 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 2:42:07 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Perhaps in countries were life is a lot harder the risk is worth taking, but the richer countries were people have a better life expectation, maybe it might work, as one cannot really compare say Thailand or Malaysia to Australia , the UK and America through pure availability of lifestyle choice.

But to control drugs, the only way I see if prohibition is the way we seek, is hit the end dealer hard and destroy the initial supply, what happens in the middle loses from either end.

As to the reticence to destroy the opium fields in Afghanistan whilst our boys are there with the hardware for fear of impoverishing the farmers, I say stuff 'em we should be looking to our home countries first, that is why we are there isn't it, hunt the fields and harvests and send them to the sky gods, thus hitting two irritations with one hit, then educate and help the lazy farmer to grow something more profitable for the population. ( I say lazy, because opium just grows, it does not need any special help ).

Perhaps it might be interesting to note what other things the illegal drug industry supplies, where the profits may go, crime and terrorism undoubtedly. The target therefore should be the crops, destroy the supply, perhaps terrorism and crime might suffer.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 11/24/2010 2:50:20 AM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Heroin shortage in UK is 'putting lives at risk' By... - 11/24/2010 2:47:13 AM   
PyrotheClown


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