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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:24:53 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Who has 10K to spend on a fine?   What a scam.


It's not a "fine". That's the bizarre thing. What it appears to be is the TSA suing you for the loss of their time in "processing" you. But they haven't processed you at that point. It's a strange one and no mistake.


I cant picture a jury enforcing that if it came to a jury.

Leaving the premises should not be a 10k cost.

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:28:54 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Who would you hold responsible if a loved one or someone you are close to died as a result of an illegal act by a person while flying?  Who do you hold responsible for the safety of you or your friends and family on planes?  What safety precautions do you feel is necessary to have you believing they have taken on their responsibility?


I would want the airlines to follow best practice, and listen to industry experts, while respecting me as an individual. Which, currently, they are singularly failing to do. That's the whole crux of this matter - the measures they're putting in place aren't likely to do much to stop terrorism, while at the same time exposing people to clinical risk*, and diverting funds away from tightening airport security in general.

Just because PA is paranoid doesn't mean that, in this case, they aren't out get him

*as just one example, none of these scanners are operated in a test-to-use** environment. They're instead treated as no different from photocopiers; when they go wrong they're sent for repair. The problem is that, if they malfunction badly, then many, many people could have been exposed to potentially harmful effects, without any knowledge of who those people might be, for follow-up health checks. I repeat, these machines have been rushed into service and there has been NO long term research done into their potential side effects. Yes they're a low-dose system. But that doesn't guarantee anything.
**as per hospital x-ray machines, for example; you have to test them every day before you're certified to use them on people.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:28:55 AM   
thishereboi


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Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

Absolutely! And what with America being such a tiny country, that's a perfectly acceptable state of affairs. Break out the donkey and have at it!

Note also that, when governments start trampling on people's rights, they never, absolutely never, stop at just one.

PS: Great 1st post BTW. Welcome.


Well, I am not sure how things are over on your side of the pond, but over here we have things called buses, trains and cars. And you would be amazed at the amount of people who never feel the need to go near an airport. In fact, I managed to go all the way from Detroit to California, without ever leaving the ground. Ain't technology great


_____________________________

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This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:29:35 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Rapierfuge, actually until you go through that initial screening, the one where you put your carry on through, you can step out of line.  I believe its once you have gone through the initial screening you are set in fulfilling what is required.

I agree with your concept of consent however, as this all pans out, i think it will be less likely the court's will believe people don't have a reasonable knowledge of what the searches are.  I agree they haven't been met, which is why i think the reasonable expectation of privacy concept will be strong before the courts or congress.  Which is why i have said continuously this will need to be played out in court to define and make it better understood.

YOU believe it doesn't, however, until you actually know both sides of the situation, which i don't think anyone at this time knows the specifics of how the TSA is looking at this or what information they are working with.  I know i know "people" say this or that, but there isn't OVERWELMING evidence that i can see.  I see simply speculation.

IN THE INSTANT SITUATION, i believe it is no one but the government making these rules of the searches amd enforcing same.  I know the Constitution but more so have seen many aspects of same argued in the courts, Rapierfuge, i write enough without expounding on other things when its not relevant.  The instant situation, isn't about private companies, its about the government.  Many people are misinformed that the airlines are the ones enforcing these rules or even making them.  While they may be able to weigh in on things, they are not the deciding factor since the TSA was created.  I could be wrong about their participation, but then again, i haven't looked into it that deep.

I usually don't argue as to what is or is not overwelming evidence as for every side that states one thing lol there is an equal amount stating the other.  Until i hear experts regarding the specifics of where the TSA is coming from and the experts from the other sides, i can't honestly weigh what is relevant or evidence.  I think a lot of what is being said is based upon speculation because these scanners have not been in place long enough to me to draw a full and accurate conclusion.   It will go before the courts and i will be watching with interest as to the arguments from both sides.  The scanners don't bother me, the touchy feelies do.

I have a feeling, there will be suits based upon religious rights, personal rights, children's rights, victim rights (i.e., people where the concepts involved here could really harm people who are victim of violent or invasive crimes), etc.  Oh i have a feeling there will be lawsuits -- however, there needs to be lobbying as well.    There will be lawsuits on profiling and not even just gender or race but based upon the clothing you wear.  I read an article recently that baggy clothes, long skirts, bulky shirts etc may in fact have you being singled out for the machines.  Their reasoning is that they don't know what you are carrying underneath.  Hell even underwires in bras are at issue.

Don't get me wrong, i am not advocating all of this, but i am not against all of it either.  I can just see the different sides of same.  As i said, i have no issue with the scanners, i do have issue with the touchy feely.

IN the end, if the people agree then that's what they do.  Here in the US its much easier to fight against the government determinations for its people, the problem you have is people don't CHOOSE to do so.  There is lobbying, there is the courts, there is running for offices, hell at the very minimum people can write to their politicians.  If the people don't actively do what needs to be done then that's that.  And unfortunately, in our country, people have chosen NOT to actively do what needs to be done, most people simply whinge and moan lol on discussion boards or to each other.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:29:54 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

Absolutely! And what with America being such a tiny country, that's a perfectly acceptable state of affairs. Break out the donkey and have at it!

Note also that, when governments start trampling on people's rights, they never, absolutely never, stop at just one.

PS: Great 1st post BTW. Welcome.


Well, I am not sure how things are over on your side of the pond, but over here we have things called buses, trains and cars. And you would be amazed at the amount of people who never feel the need to go near an airport. In fact, I managed to go all the way from Detroit to California, without ever leaving the ground. Ain't technology great



I love driving. I'd drive.

(in reply to thishereboi)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:33:03 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		My experiences anything to do with London is just plain grumpy, jobsworths comes to mind and jobsworth with a relish at that, anywhere else ,( America I can't comment on for I have not been there), they seem pleasant enough, but Newquay, what an experience, the friendly conversation that was going on whilst I went through security got me a security staffs personal phone number, her and me seeming to get on, but the whole episode was done in a friendly, you know government rules tutting  manner. But best security of a foreign country has just got to be the UAE, Dubai is best, but Sharjar ain't bad, they do what they do with efficiency and an occaisional smile,language being the difference between us. But experiences so far, the Cornish are the best.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:33:34 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		PA, these cases will go to the supreme court, there will be no jury at the very end.  Also, you would blame the government?  Yet you are having issue with regard to what they are trying to do to keep same from happening.  See this is where i see an issue.  People who would have no qualms suing or blaming the governmemt and yet moan and say the government should stay out of it.

It seems people want the best of both worlds, tell the government to stay out of it until something happens then its the governments fault and people want money from them and the principle concept of they should have done more.

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 407
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:35:33 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Don't get me wrong, i am not advocating all of this, but i am not against all of it either.  I can just see the different sides of same.  As i said, i have no issue with the scanners, i do have issue with the touchy feely.


I feel that both are wrong, for different reasons.

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
IN the end, if the people agree then that's what they do.  Here in the US its much easier to fight against the government determinations for its people, the problem you have is people don't CHOOSE to do so.  There is lobbying, there is the courts, there is running for offices, hell at the very minimum people can write to their politicians.  If the people don't actively do what needs to be done then that's that.  And unfortunately, in our country, people have chosen NOT to actively do what needs to be done, most people simply whinge and moan lol on discussion boards or to each other.


It's not "moaning", it's discussion - and if it helps to get people to start considering whether or not these policies are a good thing then I see that as a positive step.

But you're right in one respect - I've said enough for people to be able to judge for themselves whether they're prepared to swallow this erosion of their rights or not, so I can leave it there. I'm just surprised that, in the US, more people aren't concerned about it. Quiet acceptance is a very British thing, and one of our worst traits I think. I'd hate for you guys to go the same way.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:36:20 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

PA, these cases will go to the supreme court, there will be no jury at the very end.  Also, you would blame the government?  Yet you are having issue with regard to what they are trying to do to keep same from happening.  See this is where i see an issue.  People who would have no qualms suing or blaming the governmemt and yet moan and say the government should stay out of it.

It seems people want the best of both worlds, tell the government to stay out of it until something happens then its the governments fault and people want money from them and the principle concept of they should have done more.

angel


Angel.  There is no such thing as a random plane crash.   When ever there is a crash- an important person in on that plane that is bucking the system.  The Titanic, the Hindenburg- same deal.

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:41:11 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

PA, these cases will go to the supreme court, there will be no jury at the very end.  Also, you would blame the government?  Yet you are having issue with regard to what they are trying to do to keep same from happening.  See this is where i see an issue.  People who would have no qualms suing or blaming the governmemt and yet moan and say the government should stay out of it.

It seems people want the best of both worlds, tell the government to stay out of it until something happens then its the governments fault and people want money from them and the principle concept of they should have done more.
angel


This, exactly.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:44:21 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

My experiences anything to do with London is just plain grumpy, jobsworths comes to mind and jobsworth with a relish at that, anywhere else ,( America I can't comment on for I have not been there), they seem pleasant enough, but Newquay, what an experience, the friendly conversation that was going on whilst I went through security got me a security staffs personal phone number, her and me seeming to get on, but the whole episode was done in a friendly, you know government rules tutting  manner. But best security of a foreign country has just got to be the UAE, Dubai is best, but Sharjar ain't bad, they do what they do with efficiency and an occaisional smile,language being the difference between us. But experiences so far, the Cornish are the best.


I've flown to the US a lot, business and pleasure, and I've found their C&I to be consistently (over a period of 30 years) the absolute worst.

London Heathrow and Gatwick almost as bad. Stansted not quite as bad as the other London airports, but not great either.

Agree about Dubai (and Qatar too). Not exactly chummy, but pleasantly efficient. Australia not too bad.

The funniest was Carcassonne, southern France. Tiny airport, so tiny even the baggage carousels are miniature ones (had my mum in fits - "our bags are going to break it, the poor thing!"), where no-one bothers, and the "security barrier" between the "flight" and "non-flight" sides is ... a strip of tape Very French

Italian airports are usually that form of Italian chaos where it looks like mayhem, but seems to work ok anyway. It's an Italian thing

Spain? Grumpy. But then they've had a lot of experience with terrorism, via ETA, so perhaps understandable.

Anywhere in The Canaries they usually don't give a fuck. I recall landing in Lanzarote once, sparking a ciggie in an area where it wasn't prohibited, but wasn't not, if you follow me. I got to passport control, looked around for somewhere to put my ciggie while I dug out my passport, and the very scary looking guard saw, smiled, and extended an ashtray from within his booth, through that little gap they speak to you through

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:44:35 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

Who has 10K to spend on a fine?   What a scam.


It's not a "fine". That's the bizarre thing. What it appears to be is the TSA suing you for the loss of their time in "processing" you. But they haven't processed you at that point. It's a strange one and no mistake.


That is interesting in itself, the concept that they are suing you for the loss of their time, how much does it cost the US citizen for these practices, if 10k is the fine. How much is the TSA screwing out of the public purse for the right to abuse your rights. In a struggling economy perhaps these things should be looked into, for a fine of 10k apparently supposing to be compensation for wasting their time.

How many people get processed at airports on a daily basis and if they cost 10k each to the tax payer, that is a hell of a lot of money and somebody getting rich.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to RapierFugue)
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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:45:40 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		The thing is what many don't get is MOST people have no clue about the scanners because they haven't gone through them.  They are getting their information second nature instead of actually seeing if it will and does bother them.   I mean even on one of the busiest flying days in the US only 2% of people are having to deal with the scanners and pat downs and they are expected close to 2,000,000 Wednesday which means the same will probably be on Sunday.   So i can see why most people aren't overly concerned.  Its not happening to them.  If you see the news concepts, MOST people are concerned about the TIME they will have to wait to go through the process so they can catch their flights.  In the US, its become a well i will deal with it when it becomes an issue for me.  And the whole what minute or two they have to deal with same, afterwards just isn't worth their time.   They've done it, its over, and they move on.   Its a momentary blah time.  The US population is very good at complaining in the moment and then moving on once the situation is over.  Going through the process of being heard is a lot more complicated and more so it takes money for some of it (i.e., lawsuits, and i doubt many will take this on contingency). 

angel


_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:47:16 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I been to Canada and Mex, and border control was a hassle at both crossings. 

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:47:56 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

The thing is what many don't get is MOST people have no clue about the scanners because they haven't gone through them.  They are getting their information second nature instead of actually seeing if it will and does bother them.   I mean even on one of the busiest flying days in the US only 2% of people are having to deal with the scanners and pat downs and they are expected close to 2,000,000 Wednesday which means the same will probably be on Sunday.   So i can see why most people aren't overly concerned.  Its not happening to them. 


Ah well, so long as it's happening to some other poor sod that's fine then. I mean, other people aren't a priority are they, so fuck em

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:50:18 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
How many people get processed at airports on a daily basis and if they cost 10k each to the tax payer, that is a hell of a lot of money and somebody getting rich.

The current regime has cost 3 billion thus far. There are accusations that's part of the reason these things have taken off (heh) is that the scanner & security companies are, indeed, getting fat off the back of taxpayer's funds.

< Message edited by RapierFugue -- 11/25/2010 5:52:28 AM >

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RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:52:27 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		Yep, pretty much, and i don't think its much different in other places in the world.  These scanners will soon become the norm, even with court rulings they won't be removed just refined i would say.  And even when it DOES happen to them, many times people just shrug it off.  

angel

_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 417
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:53:09 AM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel
Yep, pretty much, and i don't think its much different in other places in the world.  These scanners will soon become the norm, even with court rulings they won't be removed just refined i would say.  And even when it DOES happen to them, many times people just shrug it off.  


I think that's a shame, but we can agree to differ.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 418
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:54:22 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Here is an idea........before anyone gets to fly, they must have a full background check and pay all the expenses of such. If you purchase a ticket and arrive at the airport without proof of passing said background check, your passage is denied, no refund of ticket purchase.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 419
RE: Don't bloody well touch me!!! - 11/25/2010 5:54:25 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue


quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

The thing is what many don't get is MOST people have no clue about the scanners because they haven't gone through them.  They are getting their information second nature instead of actually seeing if it will and does bother them.   I mean even on one of the busiest flying days in the US only 2% of people are having to deal with the scanners and pat downs and they are expected close to 2,000,000 Wednesday which means the same will probably be on Sunday.   So i can see why most people aren't overly concerned.  Its not happening to them. 


Ah well, so long as it's happening to some other poor sod that's fine then. I mean, other people aren't a priority are they, so fuck em


If we act like kids- will people treat us like adults?


(in reply to RapierFugue)
Profile   Post #: 420
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