RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem

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DelightMachine -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 7:46:54 AM)
NeedToUseYou, you make a zillion great points here, as you usually do. I don't think you make distinctions among the people you're criticising though, and most illegals are good people, not the people doing the things you criticise. quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou Hmmmm, I can't believe there is any debate here. Really, I guess this country wants to end up like every other split country on the planet. One language is essential. If I can't talk to you, I can't resolve conflicts with you, I can't conduct business with you efficiently. I can't interact with you. You're right. When we get enormous numbers of immigrants coming in, particularly concentrated in some areas, we set ourselves up for some future problems -- and definitely do unless they all learn English and want to become Americans. That's part of the problem about this being illegal. If you come into this country legally and want to live here and be a citizen, it's understood that we're letting you in under certain conditions -- that is, that you will become an American and be a good citizen. If you're illegal, you've essentially taken your place without making the promise that you'll become a good citizen. Of course, the vast majority of them want to be good citizens. It's just that with the change in the National Anthem, with the foreign flags in the mass demonstrations, with the talk of demands from people who didn't follow the rules to get in, that sense of a contract between the immigrant and the nation that the immigrant enters is lost. It's a very bad first step in a way. It makes the non-immigrant Americans wonder, often, whether the uninvited people will behave. And having all sorts of government forms in Spanish just increases the queasiness of the rest of us. Immigrants take on the responsibility to adapt to us. Illegals have done nothing formal to say that they will. But I'd make this criticism about your post, NeedToUseYou -- I don't think illegals are really "claiming the US as their own." I think the vast majority of them, just like other immigrants, want to come here and be good Americans. Most of them just want to obey all the laws, take on all the responsibilities, work hard (and they do -- I think we all know they do work hard), and blend in with the rest of us over time. I think that's just what will happen. quote: This is just another example of illegals claiming the US as their own. They changed the freakin words of the anthem as well. If they didn't do that it wouldn't be so bad. But they changed the lyrics to symbolize their struggle for liberty. But the "They" was a bunch of "artists" and you seem to be saying it's the illegals as a whole because in the next sentences you use the word "they" to mean illegals ("As if we are the oppressors and they are struggling for equality. Well, they aren't equal they aren't citizens. My dog has more rights. They have the right to go home, or jail.") The more you think about these people distinctly -- as the person I buy coffee from, for instance, or the singers of that Spanish song (who are probably all legal, right?) or as leaders of the protest marches -- the more distinctions have to be made, and when you start thinking about them separately, you realize that the radicals are the problem, not the vast majority of illegals. The illegals are worth sympathizing with, because for the most part they seem to be good people in an unfortunate situation, right? "Go back and fix your own massively corrupt countries or become citizens." They want to become citizens, that's the point. As for going back and fixing their countries, well, they're starting to do that in Mexico, but you can't blame any individual for not being able to fix his country. Besides that, a lot of them don't seem to know how. It's hard to blame poor, uneducated people for being ignorant. Kind of goes with the territory. The politically powerful people in Latin American countries, almost all it seems, love to bash the United States. But they're the ones that run their countries' economies into the ditch. Those aren't the poor people illegally crossing the borders -- the illegals are the victims of those political elites. quote: I have no idea what the point of this corruption of our national athem is, it is either to provoke, or created out of supreme stupidity(I doubt they didn't realize rewriting a countries national anthem would create a negative response). But it really doesn't make me think fondly of their cause. Hey, great point, they deserve to be bashed, I guess. But very few entertainers or artists think intelligently about politics. I'm not up on the details of how they changed it, but I don't like them doing it for political purposes, particularly when they're criticizing the nation whose anthem it is. You make a good point and you're helping me to think about this. quote: I'm completely sick and tired of discussing a group of people that illegally come here. And now we worry about their feelings and welfare? For the reasons I've given above, we part company here. It's not their feelings I worry about, but to a great extent I do worry about their welfare. Don't blame all of them for the stupid things that some of them do or say. quote: If someone just moved into my house because it was nicer than theirs, then proceeded to claim injustice when I told them to leave, told me to pay for this and that, then went to work for some employer I have nothing to do with, I doubt anyone would think that was crazy. But it's not exactly like that, of course. It's as if they squatted on your land and you started putting them to work. WE are the employers and we're getting the benefit of the fact that we have this vast labor pool that's grateful to work for low wages because it's the best they can do here and better than what they can do back home. This by the way is what makes the rulers of their countries really sick bastards. There's no reason those countries can't be as rich as we are except for the oppression that goes on there and the stupidity of their own governments. quote: It's our own damn fault though. In the sense you mean this (made clear in the next sentences you wrote), I agree, but I'd say it's our own fault for another reason -- the responsibility for patroling our borders and making sure we're only hiring citizens is OUR responsibility and we shouldn't forget to blame our own government and politicians for messing that up. quote: The PC police have won this little battle. Really, the mindset is you must accept everything, no matter if it attacks your own cultural foundations. Oh, you can't judge them, that would be judging and ummm well that would mean you actually had values and standards of behaviour, and ummmm, values must be bad, Right? or else this wouldn't even be debated. I think this is the mindset of some of the people posting on this thread. My mindset comes from being a Christian. I have to care about the poor. Don't have a choice. Under orders from the Ultimate Dom there. As I said, you made a zillion great points elsewhere in your post. quote: Really, I'm becoming a bit radical on the whole immigration thing. Motion Detectors attached to machine guns are sounding like a good idea for border security. [:)] Now you're just trying to provoke a fight. Then again, that's what the radicals in the immigration campaign want to do.

DelightMachine -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 8:04:36 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissA This is related to another person's post beside Feastie but It's true that there are now positions popping up in my area where you must be bilingual, how is that not discriminatory to other Americans? If we let them in or don't kick them out, then we NEED people in both the private and public sectors who know Spanish. Simple as that. It's not wrong or right in any way -- it's just a consequence of the larger issue. By the way, if the illegals weren't here, the jobs to service them probably wouldn't be here either, right? The jobs where you need Spanish are all extra jobs that wouldn't exist if the Spanish-speakers weren't here. So you're not being hurt by that. quote: ORIGINAL: DelightMachine They've already been there and done that in Dallas...and the school's just let them - they even brought buses to bring them back to school when they were done. I think they walked out 2-3 days in a row before the schools said they'd consider it an absence. Some students who continued to walk out were suspended from prom and then they were all over the news going on and on about how unfair it was that they should be punished for disobeying. The most damaging thing was seeing a large part of the protestors wading into the sculptures and display items at a well-known fountain and playing on them like they were at a water park, not to mention when they stormed the doors of some building...[&:] Ugh! Arrest 'em all! The problem is with the authorities. When you say bad behavior is OK, you open the floodgates. Worse, you teach the exact wrong lesson to kids. Probably some of these school offiicals were from the 60s generation that learned exactly the wrong lesson from the sit-ins and takeovers of buildings on college campuses back then. My immigrant grandparents and great-grandparents had one thing going for them that current immigrants don't -- they came to a country that believed in itself, that had rules and enforced them and, most importantly, expected everyone, including immigrants, to follow the rules. What you describe is what happens when the leadership in America, in this case the school district, gives up on all that.

caitlyn -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 8:10:02 AM)
None of this represents anything new here in the United States ... not that different than Irish immigrants in the 19th and early 20th Century. In the Civil War both sides had entire regiments of Irish immigrants fighting under their own flags and singing the songs of their native country - the Irish Brigade of the Union and Cobb's Georgia Legion in the Army of Northern Virginia to name a few. Later, it became a national scandal that entire police forces in the northeast were dominated by Irish born policemen. Even those born in America, kept so close to the native traditions of Ireland that you could scarcely tell native born from Irish immigrant. The point is, that these people were eventually brought into the fold of American society. It was a gradual process. Those that think early immigrants were clammoring to become Americanized Americans, are sadly mistaken. The Irish held on to their traditions for a very long time. It took several generations for them to move from being Irish Americans the Americans who happen to be Irish. People are resistant to change, and coming to a new country is traumatic. I have very little doubt that over the course of a few generations, these immigrants we see now, will be brought into the fold on American society. In one-hundred years, they will just be Americans of Mexican origin, that get drunk and wave flags on Cinco de Mayo and Dies Y Seiz

Gauge -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 9:22:17 AM)
quote: None of this represents anything new here in the United States ... not that different than Irish immigrants in the 19th and early 20th Century. On the contrary. Answer me one question. The group of people that you point to... were they here legally? I am not asking someone to abdicate their heritage at all. I don't mind that there are places like "Little Italy," "China Town" and the like. But those people are American and they accept the laws of the land and they, for the most part, are here legally.

JazzDaddy -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 9:53:39 AM)
As a person whose grandparents on his father's side legally immigrated here from Mexico to the United States in the late 1920's, I thought I would chime in here. I usually avoid political threads, so I am sort of breaking my rule. For me, granting amnesty to those who are illegally here is a slap in the face to all the those who have attained citizenship legally or are still in the process of getting it. My father was born in Mexico, and even though his father got his US citizenship a few years later, Dad was not a full U.S. citizen until he was 21, back in 1950. Neither he nor his sisters ever knew much Spanish, as English was the language necessary to be successful in America. My dad, up until his death, was always very proud of being an American and always identified himself as one. That being said, and with my father's background, the whole argument for amnesty just sounds ludicrous. So let's see---you want amnesty for being here illegally when others have spent many years going through the process legally to get their citizenship and may not have attained it yet; you want us to translate everything to Spanish, even though English is the dominant language in the US; and among other things, you want us to suddenly let your extended family come over here and get the same amnesty too. Now, go to any other country in this world and live there illegally and see what response is given when the above demands are made. There are many, many citizens here of Hispanic origin who are vehemently against the amnesty plans floating out there, but the media doesn't seem to cover that side of the argument. My two cents.

Summarizer -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 11:02:27 AM)
Thread Summarized: As disrespectful as this new rendition of Star Spangled Banner is, we are a free society with free speech and people can make whatever art they want to even if it is full of lies as this new stupid version is. This also gives Americans more license than ever to portray Latin American icons any way you see fit, such as a Caesar Chavez dartboard or Selena toilet paper.

TexasMaam -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 11:30:55 AM)
One of the best ways to learn a new language is through songs and repetetive phrases. To expect the hispanic community to 'mold' themselves to a caucasian ideal is unrealistic. To think that we can shut our borders is pretty unrealistic, too. Welcome the international influences that will mold this nation into it's new future. Embrace the change. Learn the Spanish American National Anthem and learn a little Spanish, while you're at it. Meanwhile, our schools and immigration laws can continue to implement testing of English as our National Language and testing of basic American history and political science for citizenship qualifications. Move over, people, times are changing, make room on the bench for others to have a seat. TexasMaam Madame de Texas Senora de Tejas Madame von Texas Madame fra Texas Signora da Texas Mevrouw van Texas Мадам из Штата Техас 來自德克薩斯的夫人

MissA -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 1:19:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DelightMachine quote: ORIGINAL: MissA This is related to another person's post beside Feastie but It's true that there are now positions popping up in my area where you must be bilingual, how is that not discriminatory to other Americans? By the way, if the illegals weren't here, the jobs to service them probably wouldn't be here either, right? The jobs where you need Spanish are all extra jobs that wouldn't exist if the Spanish-speakers weren't here. So you're not being hurt by that. Actually the exact job I was thinking of when I posted would exist. It's in public healthcare, namely the community (free) clinics. The receptionists must know Spanish in order to work there (at least in my city). The job would still exist whether or not they had strictly Spanish speaking clients there but then there would be no need for the madatory condition for hiring. This excludes other receptionists who don't speak fluent Spanish. Though I'm sure there are jobs now that may not be around if we did not have such a large Spanish speaking population as you said. ~Ms. A~

Saratov -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 1:47:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: champagnewishes As far as I am concerned, Francis Scott Key witnessed the bombarding of Ft. McHenry during the Battle of Baltimore. He wrote a poem entitled "The Defense of Ft. McHenry". It was later named "The Star Spangled Banner". The song was adopted as the American National Anthem by an executive order from President Woodrow Wilson in 1916 and then again by an Act of Congress in 1931. That is the National Anthem of MY country and until I am told differently by either an executive order or an act of congress....anything else is just a song for someone's entertainment. I have heard part of the spanish version and it's translation. Simply translating the english to spanish 'doesn't work musically' so... they are changing the words to the way the spanish/mexicans would say it. [8\|]

Mercnbeth -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 2:22:29 PM)
quote: Learn the Spanish American National Anthem and learn a little Spanish, while you're at it Tx, Do you think this wave of immigrants is more stupid or just less motivated to learn the language and culture of the country they are emigrating compared to all other groups who formed the current collage of nationalities who make up this country? Or do you believe the country should adapt to it's lowest common denominator of immigrant, the illegal, the uneducated, abandoned by their country of origin; who is willing to work for less than minimum wage? Why not make German the "official" language of the country as was contemplated after the American Revolution? Then 99% of the current citizens would be on the same level. Shutting the borders is easy. Enforce, double the fines, and arrest the individuals and/or officers of the companies exploiting these people and the problem ebbs significantly if not completely.

MasterRenegade77 -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 2:41:06 PM)
I've posted this on another related thread but think it needs repeating!!! Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants Amen to this! 99 years later. What a visionary that Teddy R. Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in1907. "In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American... There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people." -Theodore Roosevelt 1907-

MsMacComb -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 3:56:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DelightMachine I'm probably not as familiar with New Mexico or Southwest history as you are, but I always understood that while the government changed, the people who were in New Mexico, California, etc. all were able to keep their land. Am I wrong? Did most get thrown off their land? There are a good number of people of Mexican descent that simply stayed on in New Mexico and, for the most part, are doing quite well today, from what I understand. Poor Hispanics are largely immigrants -- whose land was never taken from them because their ancestors never lived in the American Southwest. Producing wealth is not a function of land (except in a very small degree) but a function of people using their labor in smarter ways -- that's what brings wealth. You mean the Hispanics of Mexican descent want reparations for the land they stole from the Native Americans? Should the Navajos give reparations to the Hopis because the Navajo reservation lands were all conquered lands that the Hopis used to own? Lucky for the Hopis that whatever group they stole their land from is probably now dead -- probably wiped out by some early ancestors of the present-day Hopis. There were cattle ranches all over the southwest that were owned by Mexican families that encompassed 100s of 1000s of acres. Some obviously deeded land, some wherein their livestock just roamed freely. When "white man" came and laid claim to nearly all the land these people's livelihood was gone and yes indeed in order to survive they did flee south back across the Rio Grande. I do take minor issue with your comment about land versus labor as producing wealth. For many states and some countries (the bombing in Egypt for example) tourism is a huge source of income. As in billions of dollars annually. Whomever owns that land is the person that reaps those profits in a sense. Some places in the southwest (and elseswhere to be sure) where Native American Indian tribes own property and have turned them into resorts, hotels, casinos etc make 100s of millions. In Lincoln County where the Mescalero Apaches own an enourmous amount of pristine mountain land with streams, wildlife, sking etc their sole source of income is tourism and related activites due to simply owning the property. In many cases land that was owned by Mexicans would produce the same in tourism dollars today, if they still owned it. And lastly I would point out that "Native American" includes Mexicans. Many of whom are descendants of the Incas, Mayans etc. So debating if Mexicans stole Native Americans land is virtually impossible as they are in a sense one in the same.

MsMacComb -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 4:08:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Saint Sorry Charlie, but punishing someones great, great, great grandchildren for the sins of their forefathers is not only ludicrous but immoral as well and if you wish to make logic based arguments on the here and now, go for it and I will support it. quote: Exactly. Flip your comment 180 degrees. These same people are being punished for the sins of our fathers and grandfathers. And your comment of : {quote} "But to pull up history over and over to twist, pervert, and corrupt the meaning of what we are discussing, then perhaps you shouldnt be posting at all? {End quote} really needs some evidence. By repeating history and the fact that you might not like it doesnt mean it has been perverted or altered and I think I will post what I want and when I want (thank you very fucking much) with or without your approval. Look slick, you can justify invasions and occupations of countries versus those same repressed peoples doing what they have to do to survive all you like. Thats YOUR thing (Bush supporter are you?) but has nothing to do with reality. Actually I dont even know why I am replying to this as your whole message is nonsense.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 4:48:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb No doubt. Its irrelevant to many Americans but not as much to some Mexicans. Not unlike African Americans one thing that affects them in the financial sense in the long term is the inability to pass through generations property. A good deal of the wealth that many Americans now enjoy is through property values that appreciated over the last century. Land that was homesteaded for farming in the late 1800s and early 1900s which was passed through generations is now sold for millions for shopping malls, to developers for tract homes and other businesses. So again, in the unique set of circumstances that pertain to African Americans and Mexicans they either were not allowed to own property or it was taken from them. As recently as 1967 there was a shoot out in a court house over land grants known as the Tierra Amarilla Courthouse Raid in Northern New Mexico.The majority of Hispanics of Mexican descent in the southwest still feel like there should be legal action or reparations paid to them, as do Native Americans as well as African Americans. About a decade ago the Tesque Pueblo filed claim to all the water rights in the oldest consistently inhabited capital in the USA which is Santa Fe, New Mexico. There are many legal issues that people residing outside the southwest may not hear about or be aware of. But the bottom line is that these people take very seriously the atrocities that were bestowed upon them by "Americans" the last couple hundred years. So this is all off topic I know, but in my opinion the least important thing as far as racial issues, equality and humanitarian issues, border security, jobs, green cards, trafficking of drugs and humans for labor is whether or not a few Hispanics want to sing the National Anthem in Spanish. [:)] Oh my MsMacComb! You speak very eloquently, and this is very similar to a discussion I was having behind the scenes recently, and about which I feel very strongly and connected to personally. So it may Indeed be off topic, but this is right on in response to NeedtoUseYou's rant. [sm=applause.gif][sm=applause.gif] M hmmmm, she's addressing the past and not offering a solution to the present. What is the point of her post? That they were screwed in the past. Okay, good point? Everybodies ancestors have been screwed over at some point. That doesn't change the current reality of the situation. And in my post I did point out that this is just the latest in a long chain of annoyances. I never said this is the Supreme issue on immigration. So, I just differ in that I deal with the present, and the current conditions. And the fact is no one is giving back New Mexico, California, Texas or wherever. Nor should event so old that no one alive actually participated, be considered when deciding a course of action. So, why even bring it up. I owe mexico nothing, as I wasn't born in the contested states, nor ever stepped foot in New Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came over legally later than the alamo and all that nonsense. So, how exactly do I owe them anything even if we bring up misdeeds done to a generation long gone. I didn't benefit one bit from any of this. Nor did a large majority of people who came over after the deed was done. So, they should feel guilty to? Or owe something? I get it already, you don't like my post, hmmmm, worse things could happen, like you couldn't read the language I was typing in. Maybe that would be good for both of us. Thanks.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 5:06:19 PM)
My objection isn't with immigrants. My objection is to illegal immigrants. No one has the right just to enter any country they select. I have nothing but respect for people who come here legally, pay taxes, learn the language, and work for a better life. That's the american dream. Just because it takes some time and paper work is no reason to ignore the law. I have no respect, for people that cross into our country knowing it's against our laws. So the very first action they take in this country is disrespecting it's law. Not a very good setup, for law abiding citizenship. Then at the very least learn to speak English. At least respect the society you've moved into, rather than demand bilingual education. Then some school starts flying a mexican flag above the US flag, and waving mexican flags at demonstrations. I have no idea how the whole movement could be anymore disrespectful than it is. Granted individuals may vary, and I'm sure their are plenty that are great people. But my view is if you have clashes in the general school population, protest marches, and the like, it appears more fall into the disrespectful category than not. But the point is they are here illegally, if you want the laws to mean anything, you don't give them a pass, benefits, drivers licenses, and citizenship. Sometimes it seems like I woke up in the twilight zone.

MsMacComb -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 5:19:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou hmmmm, she's addressing the past and not offering a solution to the present. What is the point of her post? That they were screwed in the past. Okay, good point? Everybodies ancestors have been screwed over at some point. That doesn't change the current reality of the situation. And in my post I did point out that this is just the latest in a long chain of annoyances. I never said this is the Supreme issue on immigration. So, I just differ in that I deal with the present, and the current conditions. And the fact is no one is giving back New Mexico, California, Texas or wherever. Nor should event so old that no one alive actually participated, be considered when deciding a course of action. So, why even bring it up. I owe mexico nothing, as I wasn't born in the contested states, nor ever stepped foot in New Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came over legally later than the alamo and all that nonsense. So, how exactly do I owe them anything even if we bring up misdeeds done to a generation long gone. I didn't benefit one bit from any of this. Nor did a large majority of people who came over after the deed was done. So, they should feel guilty to? Or owe something? Not at all. My opinion is that about a decade (or more) ago we should have presented Mexico with two options. Either become the 51st state or we will build a wall the entire length of the border that no one will be able to cross, (think DMZ.). Beyond that have a guest worker visa program (like other countries do) that enables X amount of documented workers to come and work here. They will be taxed (and more importantly their employers will pay payroll taxes on them), they will follow our laws, have insurance and will need to return home to renew their work visa once a year or six months or whatever. This will allow them to make money, it will cover jobs that are available here that no one wants, everyone gets paid a decent wage, everyone pays taxes, our border is secure and everyone wins. The entire point of the rest of my messages was simply to point out a bit of history and the fact that people like you that think they are beneath dogs, are very wrong. No one chooses their parents, their race, their nationality or gender. You could have just as easily been born Mexican, Chinese or whatever. You could also have been born deformed or mentally disadvantaged. My point is that those of us that have it easy, that have had the good fortune to "win the genetic lottery" should not turn a blind eye to those less fortunate and should try to assist them rather than ignore them. People are the same no matter where they are from or what race they are. The fault of our immigration issues is NOT the fault of some poor Mexicans whose land we stole and only want to feed their families. The fault is a bunch of lamefucks in Washington who pay no attention to anything other than fundraising and lining their pockets. Animosity and hatred to hard working people that just want to provide for their families is just wrong and pointless. If you or I had been born in Mexico we would both swim the river as well. Your hardass attitude is great. But apply it to the people who are at fault, politicians, not wetbacks making $4 an hour.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 5:41:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb quote: ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou hmmmm, she's addressing the past and not offering a solution to the present. What is the point of her post? That they were screwed in the past. Okay, good point? Everybodies ancestors have been screwed over at some point. That doesn't change the current reality of the situation. And in my post I did point out that this is just the latest in a long chain of annoyances. I never said this is the Supreme issue on immigration. So, I just differ in that I deal with the present, and the current conditions. And the fact is no one is giving back New Mexico, California, Texas or wherever. Nor should event so old that no one alive actually participated, be considered when deciding a course of action. So, why even bring it up. I owe mexico nothing, as I wasn't born in the contested states, nor ever stepped foot in New Mexico. My grandparents and great grandparents came over legally later than the alamo and all that nonsense. So, how exactly do I owe them anything even if we bring up misdeeds done to a generation long gone. I didn't benefit one bit from any of this. Nor did a large majority of people who came over after the deed was done. So, they should feel guilty to? Or owe something? Not at all. My opinion is that about a decade (or more) ago we should have presented Mexico with two options. Either become the 51st state or we will build a wall the entire length of the border that no one will be able to cross, (think DMZ.). Beyond that have a guest worker visa program (like other countries do) that enables X amount of documented workers to come and work here. They will be taxed (and more importantly their employers will pay payroll taxes on them), they will follow our laws, have insurance and will need to return home to renew their work visa once a year or six months or whatever. This will allow them to make money, it will cover jobs that are available here that no one wants, everyone gets paid a decent wage, everyone pays taxes, our border is secure and everyone wins. The entire point of the rest of my messages was simply to point out a bit of history and the fact that people like you that think they are beneath dogs, are very wrong. No one chooses their parents, their race, their nationality or gender. You could have just as easily been born Mexican, Chinese or whatever. You could also have been born deformed or mentally disadvantaged. My point is that those of us that have it easy, that have had the good fortune to "win the genetic lottery" should not turn a blind eye to those less fortunate and should try to assist them rather than ignore them. People are the same no matter where they are from or what race they are. The fault of our immigration issues is NOT the fault of some poor Mexicans whose land we stole and only want to feed their families. The fault is a bunch of lamefucks in Washington who pay no attention to anything other than fundraising and lining their pockets. Animosity and hatred to hard working people that just want to provide for their families is just wrong and pointless. If you or I had been born in Mexico we would both swim the river as well. Your hardass attitude is great. But apply it to the people who are at fault, politicians, not wetbacks making $4 an hour. I said my dog has more citizenship rights, which is true! Becuase they have no citizenship rights if they are here illegally, Please, read wihin the scope of the argument. It should be clearly evident as the word citizenship was in the actual sentence and the rant was about citizenship. And not personally call me names, I can do that to. If you object to a phrase ask me to explain it. That's what adults do. As far as the rest of the post I agree with it other than the assumption that all the mexicans are good people, some are good some are bad. And the fact that they are demanding bilingual education, protesting and such doesn't make me much care. I did say fuck bush as well in my post, I apply to all applicable parties including the government. I'm 100% behind the legal immigrant, and 100% against the illegal immigrant. Politicians and corporations I told to fuck off as well, for exploiting the situation. Yes, it's easy to solve if government got there act together, but it still doesn't excuse what alot of them are doing in the mean time. I never handed a pass to bush and the rest of government, as this is a problem caused by the Government, Corporations, and illegal immigrants. All are guilty, none have my universal sympathy.

FangsNfeet -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 6:17:17 PM)
Let's translate La Bamba to english. An eye for an eye eh? Then again, let's not forget the orgins of the National Anthem. It's the same concept of how Barney ripped off all our child hood tunes such as This Old Man. http://stockholm.usembassy.gov/usflag/national_anthem.html http://www.bcpl.net/~etowner/anacreon.html Anyhow, many songs, books, and such have been translated. To respect Christianity, should we all learn how to speak Jewish, Latin, and Greek? Translation happens. Who here has had a problem with seeing Christmas songs bering translated into spanish? The US has translated many songs around the world to english. So what's the big deal? If you have to learn a song in english, you normally have to hear it in your original language to begin with.

Saratov -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 6:51:33 PM)
If singing them in their country of origin we would do it in the language of origin. Just like their national anthems, or should we translate other countries anthems to english so as to be easier for americans living there?

Gauge -> RE: Spanish Version of US National Anthem (4/29/2006 7:15:27 PM)
quote: As a person whose grandparents on his father's side legally immigrated here from Mexico to the United States in the late 1920's, I thought I would chime in here. I usually avoid political threads, so I am sort of breaking my rule. For me, granting amnesty to those who are illegally here is a slap in the face to all the those who have attained citizenship legally or are still in the process of getting it. I am glad you broke your rule. I am glad that you came forward and put this out for all to see. I could not have said this because I was born here and I concider myself an American. My family immigrated from Ireland and Germany a few generations ago. It is nice to hear someone from the family of a recent, legal immigration speak up and call this what it clearly is... a slap in the face to those who came here legally. Thank you for taking time to air your opinion.

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