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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/3/2010 7:48:24 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Looks like the scientifically illiterate have begun their self-congratulating circle jerk.


Hill, I wonder if he's one of the poor who the U.K. is encouraging to breed?


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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/3/2010 8:08:37 PM   
Edwynn


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Heretic,

Why are you doing this? I mean really?

If the environment means anything at all to you, why are you doing this?


Your comments re my snarking are well taken, but this exceeds the ultimate snark intentioned in your introduction of this entire thread just how?

Your making some media-directed political statement in their mandated sissy attire has nothing to say to my reasonable response and calling you out on
your ill-hidden purpose.

The water that we drink and the things we breathe even indoors are of less quality than one should expect from a highly advanced economy.

If you want to play the child's game of politics then just go with that, just like the skittish media.


Scoot you away from any serious discussion on the environment.


The world has enough political skate-boarders-in-drag as it is.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/3/2010 8:27:32 PM >

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/3/2010 8:10:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Looks like the scientifically illiterate have begun their self-congratulating circle jerk.



This subject has little to do with the science of global-warming, or climate change, or the latest label of AGW, Hill. It is the perception of it, and the level of political capital available to move forward.

Acting like elitist fascists is what dug the hole the fucktards are now in.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/3/2010 10:02:04 PM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Wake me when we're all dead from the heat, or cold, or whatever we need to be afraid of this week.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/3/2010 10:50:18 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


Why are you doing this? I mean really?

If the environment means anything at all to you, why are you doing this?






As I noted earlier in the thread, Edwy, when a good cause gets hijacked by assholes with an unrelated agenda, it can suck for the good cause. Breaking the assholes just might have to take priority.

I have lots of unanswered questions regarding climate change, and how meaningful some of the data that gets fed to us really is. I do have enough science to know what a data set of (1) is worth. Asking those questions apparently makes me a "denier." This is the approach of the fundamentalist true-believer, not the thinking person.

The history of our planet is one of an ever changing climate. It has been a steam bath, and an ice cube, over and over again, long before we ever discovered how to set wood on fire, and long before we ever crawled from the slime that thinks a CO2 rich atmosphere is paradise.

I find the assumption that we have this climate shit all figured out to be ludicrous, the notion that we can bend it to our will beyond arrogance, and the idea that the "solution" is submission to enviro-authoritarians a nightmare.

Clear enough?

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/3/2010 11:39:47 PM   
Edwynn


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Clear enough to know that that we actually had fire boats on the Ohio river in the 50's to put out real surface fires on a regular basis to deal with whatever industry chose to dump into it, until it became "clear" to those dimwits that there might be something stupid in all that.

Clear enough to know that five-legged frogs are not natural in such numbers as arise here lately.

Clear enough to know that nobody can enjoy themselves much at the beaches on the east coast because of the preponderance of jellyfish due to all the six-pack rings that turtles on the west coast die from.

Clear enough to know that you make it plain that you limit your awareness to what the media tell you to be aware of. And clear enough to know that you have to resort to puerile tactics when cornered with the facts.

Is that clear enough, Herwy?







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/4/2010 12:18:33 AM >

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 4:27:36 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

You are confusing legitimacy with credibility, Ken. They are not synonymous. Credibility is a subjective thing. The last time the boy in the fable cried wolf, it was a legitimate claim, but he had no credibility to work with.

You may try again.

You yourself said legitimacy not credibility. I'm just trying to stay on topic. You seem to want to change the toipic now that the failings of your original claim have been pointed out.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 5:22:39 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

Looks like the scientifically illiterate have begun their self-congratulating circle jerk.



This subject has little to do with the science of global-warming, or climate change, or the latest label of AGW, Hill. It is the perception of it, and the level of political capital available to move forward.

Acting like elitist fascists is what dug the hole the fucktards are now in.



I'll agree with you to a point, Heretic. But, saving the planet (and as a result the human species) has EVERYTHING to do with scientific knowledge.

The policies are being made by people that couldnt pass a college level chemistry class if their life depended on it. They feel free, however, to parrot the latest pablum that has been fed to them by whatever megacorp is in the best position to profit.

What the uneducated don't understand, they just assume it doesn't exist and there are a bunch of corporations making billions that are more than happy to keep them ignorant and ranting.

Climate change is happening. Even the AGW people admit that. They only argue about whether we are causing it.

I'll paraphrase a religious bumpersticker here. It said "if you believe there is no God, you BETTER be right"

The same could be said about anthrogenic global warming.

Let the scientifically literate do what they have to do and stay the hell out of their way or become scientifically literate yourself.

As far as what dug the hole they are in, I've dealt a lot with chemists, Biologist, Physisicts, you name it. They arent political people. They dont understand things like 'spin'. Something either "is" or it "isnt" and if I can show that something "isn't" and a person still doesnt believe it even though the data is right in front of them, "they are a fucking idiot and not worth teaching any more and I'll just go back to the lab and they can sit out in the cold".

You are right, it is an attitude and it is an attitude that those who are scientifically ignorant but politically astute take advantage of in the name of profit.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 6:54:35 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Clear enough to know that you make it plain that you limit your awareness to what the media tell you to be aware of.



Wow, Edwy. When you get your teeth into an irrational talking point, you just get stuck on stupid, don't you? The "media" have told me to be skeptical of global warming?

How far out into the backwoods of kooksville do you live?



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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 7:01:07 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I came across this picture from the collapsing Cancun talks, Ken. The demonstrators had something else in mind, I'm sure, but it pretty clearly illustrates where you and yours are about how badly your fascist tactics and papal pronouncements have damaged the cause.






Attachment (1)

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 7:12:38 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

I came across this picture from the collapsing Cancun talks, Ken. The demonstrators had something else in mind, I'm sure, but it pretty clearly illustrates where you and yours are about how badly your fascist tactics and papal pronouncements have damaged the cause.








Looks like a bunch of AGW activists.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 7:18:04 AM   
CerVeza


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Status: offline 		Global warming, cooling, or whatever the is calling it these days is more like a religion than science. The scientific method WELCOMES skepticism. Religion does not. Believe because of faith. So question global algore warming/cooling and see the zealots come out. Pretty easy to understand. The earth cools and warms naturally. Has for years and years. We're better off plugging all the volcanoes than doing anything else. Of course, that is silly. But call it a religion and leave the rest of us out of the fantasy. intelligencia

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 7:20:48 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Very good, Hill. You can have a cookie.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 7:41:32 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

As far as what dug the hole they are in, I've dealt a lot with chemists, Biologist, Physisicts, you name it. They arent political people. They dont understand things like 'spin'. Something either "is" or it "isnt" and if I can show that something "isn't" and a person still doesnt believe it even though the data is right in front of them, "they are a fucking idiot and not worth teaching any more and I'll just go back to the lab and they can sit out in the cold".




You might find this article interesting, Hill.

http://www.american.com/archive/2010/july/science-turns-authoritarian

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 8:47:33 AM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Clear enough to know that you make it plain that you limit your awareness to what the media tell you to be aware of.



Wow, Edwy. When you get your teeth into an irrational talking point, you just get stuck on stupid, don't you? The "media" have told me to be skeptical of global warming?

How far out into the backwoods of kooksville do you live?





Your lack of reading comprehension is explaining a lot here now.

I said that your awareness of environmental concerns is limited by what the media happen to be leading you to at the moment, not that they have succeeded in convincing you one way or another.  But if you are being honest, did you actually have this particular skepticism before the e-mail circus came to town?


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

This subject has little to do with the science of global-warming, or climate change, or the latest label of AGW, Hill. It is the perception of it, and the level of political capital available to move forward.




OK, we get it, real environmental concerns are not the issue for you, but rather "perception" and politics, which is all that the media have ever been conveying for decades. And you are telling us that you actually rely on these people for useful or honest information, and now take great pride in pointing out an error by these same folks that intelligent people never pay any attention to in the first place.

The truth of the matter is that species are dying out and some that remain are born mutilated, and potable water is becoming evermore scarce, and streams and coastlines are being choked with fertilizer runoff that feed algae as they swamp the system and then die and consume disproportionate amounts of oxygen in the process and kill tons of fish, and more lethal bacteria are propagating due to environmentally beneficial bacteria being killed off, and ...

But all that matters to you is the one particular item of environmental concern that the media have led you to, and the politics and perception.


Good boy Herwy!

Just as they planned.




< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/4/2010 9:39:39 AM >

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 9:07:18 AM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

As far as what dug the hole they are in, I've dealt a lot with chemists, Biologist, Physisicts, you name it. They arent political people. They dont understand things like 'spin'. Something either "is" or it "isnt" and if I can show that something "isn't" and a person still doesnt believe it even though the data is right in front of them, "they are a fucking idiot and not worth teaching any more and I'll just go back to the lab and they can sit out in the cold".




You might find this article interesting, Hill.

http://www.american.com/archive/2010/july/science-turns-authoritarian



Would you believe thast I had NOT read that article before the above rant? LOL

To CerVeza. You say that the climate change crowd is a religion. Nice quote from your radio and TV talk shows.

I ask this. Isn't the cult of pesonality that Rush and Beck and Hannity have built VERY close to a religion as well?
Dont they have legions of people willing to take what they say as the gospel truth without thinking about it at all?

Note I said "change" not warming. Some places will get colder. You also quote another mantra of the AGW folks "Climate change is natural and inevitable".

You are correct there but, previously, change typically occurred over millenia, not decades, with the exception of the catastrophic things that tend to happen every hundred million years or so. (asteroid strikes, supervolcanoes, etc)

As I said before:
1. I'm not saying we're causing it (change) but why take the chance.

2. Oil is too important to human civilization to burn the stuff.

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 9:15:28 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Wipe your spittle off the screen before you try to read this, Edwy. Welcome to the real world, where public opinion and public perception equate to the political capital necessary to address problems in a democratic society. It's going to be a very scary place for you, I can tell, but denial doesn't serve any useful purpose at all.

Only when the stain of the hijackers is removed from these issues can we hope to move forward.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 9:37:20 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The history of our planet is one of an ever changing climate. It has been a steam bath, and an ice cube, over and over again, long before we ever discovered how to set wood on fire, and long before we ever crawled from the slime that thinks a CO2 rich atmosphere is paradise.


Im going to step out on a limb here. As you stated, Rich, the earth's weather has been a cyle of heating up and cooling off. I frequently ask the same question to those who are so adamant that earth is burning up because of people.

How do you know the earth isnt in the midst of long warming cycle?

Here is one source.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glaciation

The graph is pretty interesting, but, to be honest, im not quite sure i get what it means in totality. What im seeing is a history of glaciation and interglacial periods... all in cycles.

Are we really sure this isnt just a part of the natural cycle?

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 9:41:54 AM   
DomKen


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Status: offline 		I see Heretic has essentially abandoned his original position that AGW wasn't happening and is now concentrating on the "nobody cares" lie. I guess that is some progress.

Now to demolish the "nobody cares" lie, here is Gallup's polling which shows that 53% of Americans believe global warming is already affecting the planet and 50% see human activity as the cause. That's despite years of intense propoganda by the denialists.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 12/4/2010 9:44:28 AM >

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RE: Getting back to the basics of saving the planet - 12/4/2010 9:44:29 AM   
Aneirin


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What's this talk of saving the planet, why, because the planet will save itself, it will redress the balance no matter what we do because we have no idea what the planet is up to. But one thing is for sure it is more powerful than a meddling life form on it's surface, that, it can blot out in an instant if it ever becomes so bad that human action does harm the natural machine.

I believe for the human species to even make a dent in undoing what it has done, we have to throw away our modern lifestyles and basically go back to living with the land, permaculture and all that it brings. Stop drilling for oil and gas, stop detonating nuclear weapons, stop burning the air with combustion machines and stop polluting the land with things that naturaly should not be there, be that the out of sight out of mind pollution created by our daily living and the pollution of the war machine, the residues of weapons.

Maybe the apparent acceleration in climate change is in line with the industrialisation of man kind, thousands of years of gentle change in a non mechanised existence, and then as man discovers industry on a large scale, the weather patterns begin to change.

Maybe we are the guardians of nature, maybe that is the reason we as a single species have evolved to what we have become, but perhaps we have forgotten our mother, how to respect her and do her bidding, perhaps now she is sending us a gentle warning that we are not in control and never will be until we learn to respect that which we came from.

How would one fare I wonder, the oil runs out, the machines stop and we are forced to deal with the land ourselves, would we welcome it  ?

But one thing that does interest me, is the rise of heathen belief in these years, as if some at least are hearing the mothers words and going back to where perhaps it all went wrong, but one thing is apparently congruous in all this, it is societies disenfranchised that hear the land the most.

Perhaps God was a mistake, as our religion should be our lives on this earth worshipping our mother as she allows us to live on her planet.

But what all those in authority are striving to do is make changes that in reality are just not enough, for the human nature that states the planet exists to be used have got it all wrong, the nature of  unreasonable profit is the master humans worship, a take it all scenario instead only take what is needed fot the time that it is needed.

The industrialised west is destroying everything for all, greed is the enemy, not the planet, we deal with greed then maybe we have a chance.


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