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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 4:29:13 AM   
MasterNJ20


Posts: 66
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		Well as I mentioned in one post many Arab countries like having the Palestinian conflict. Not only for monetary gain, but also for political control. Arab nations can use Israel as a rallying cry to get people under their extremist flags. "Don't pay attention to us abusing basic human rights, look at Israel!"

Not just Palestinian groups but Saudis, Iran, Syria, will use rallying cries like this to divert attention from internal issues. As prejudicial and anti-Israel and anti-US as the link you posted was it made good points on the fact Lebanon, Israel, and Palestinians all lose billions of dollars in these wars, foreign nations lose billions of dollars. Some manufacturer is pocketing this money, but also some people are profiting not with cash, but with political power over the war and not just those involved.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 5:52:09 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		That said, the fundamentalist nutjobs picking on Israel at least keeps them out of the vaguely progressive Arab countries' hair.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 6:09:07 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I have been in armed forces, and it agues me now to remember I maintained killing machines, as now I seek peace in all things wherever there is conflict and wholely promote compromise, as compromise is the only accceptable way forward for the Israeli Palestine issue. The past cannot be undone, but it takes brave and decent people to see the past is not the way forward and it those people the world should be supporting, not one side or the other as befits their politico business ideals.

I have said before I believe the Israelis are not all alike, just as Americans are not all alike, but it takes only a few to mar the vision seen by others and as we know, the corporate media can be rabid and misleading in what they present to the gullible.

I believe in both Palestine and Israel there are people fed up with the death and destruction on both sides, and the things done arrogantly in their name, but as the voice of reason is often drowned out in the hullabaloo of the things that sensationalise, perhaps we should be looking towards a more intelligent media that inspires hope for the future not senationalism to fill corporate coffers and motivate other actions on those that do not deserve it

But, I wonder hear, the democraticaly elected party of Hamas, I wonder are they just guns and bombs or do they have a political wing, if so they are the people we should be listening to, as the Brits have come to listen to Sinn Fein. For both Hamas and Sinn Fein bear some resemblance and with Sinn Fein, a compromise was found which lead to the end of years of terror. I see a lot of similarities with the Northern Ireland situation as it was and the Israeli/Palestinian situation. But for any change to happen, the world has got to recognise Hamas as an democraticly elected political party/ government and start affording them the respect they are due instead of just seeing terrorists bent on destruction.

Two wrongs as ever repeated over and over never have and never will make a right, the past has got to be prevented from staining the future before the people have even got there.

But as to Saudi Arabia, I know of their influence, and know as they have what everyone wants, they are a political influence in the region, and with that even more reason to be careful with the Iranians, as has it not occured once Iran is out of the game, Saudia Arabia stands to be more powerful and with that power control the world through it's needs. A better situation would to cool it with Iran and choose where we buy our oil, perhaps even play one producer off against another and there ourselves control the ego of such countries by pure purchaser power.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 6:12:51 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		Who would have believed that a thread entitled 'Propaganda and Israel' would end up full of the usual mindless pro-Zionist dribble?

Just to pick up on something mentioned earlier - I haven't tried to hide my hatred for Israel. I think it's perfectly fine to hate apartheid, especially when it occurs in a racist state like Israel, which practices the same sort of obnoxious racial/religious segregation that we once saw in South Africa. I think it's fine to hate a state which practices the same sort of ethnic cleansing policies we have seen in the Balkans. And I think it is perfectly reasonable to hate the sort of state that targets civilians in order to further a state policy of stealing land belonging to others.

I'm not going to apologise for hating fascism.


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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 7:10:55 AM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I don't believe everyone should be tarred with the same brush for the actions of a minority.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 7:19:30 AM   
hertz


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Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		I agree.

Unfortunately, in the case of Israel, it is probably the actions of the majority that the Palestinians need most to be concerned about. If we were truly dealing with the behaviour of a minority only, then the State of Israel would not be the disgusting cesspool of racism and bad intent that it is.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 7:36:15 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		As in all things those who shout the loudest get heard the most, guns, bombs and the artifices of war are the the voice of the loudest, but they might just be the controllers who have the power in the region and with that are a minority holding all others fate in their grasp.

Just like we have 22 millionaires screwing up our country, they are a minority in the position of power, they sure don't speak for the country as we are beginning to see.


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 9:34:47 AM   
luckydawg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

Who would have believed that a thread entitled 'Propaganda and Israel' would end up full of the usual mindless pro-Zionist dribble?

Just to pick up on something mentioned earlier - I haven't tried to hide my hatred for Israel. I think it's perfectly fine to hate apartheid, especially when it occurs in a racist state like Israel, which practices the same sort of obnoxious racial/religious segregation that we once saw in South Africa. I think it's fine to hate a state which practices the same sort of ethnic cleansing policies we have seen in the Balkans. And I think it is perfectly reasonable to hate the sort of state that targets civilians in order to further a state policy of stealing land belonging to others.

I'm not going to apologise for hating fascism.





You dont Hate facism.

You hate a democracy.

Hamas is killiing people for a racially pure, restrictive Thoecracy.

ruled by the gun.

You love facism.


You hate Jews.

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I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 9:41:52 AM   
hertz


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Status: offline 		Israel is killing people for Jewish Lebensraum and a supremacist Jewish state. God hates Nazis.







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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 1:42:29 PM   
MasterNJ20


Posts: 66
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Status: offline 		Hertz maybe its time you realize Hamas and almost all Palestinian leadership is racist and seeks a racially and religiously pure theocracy.

Once you accept this you should realize the following:
Palestinian groups have used ambulances to get bombs into Israel.
Hamas fires from civilian infrastructure.
Hamas has trained young children how to fire guns at Jews.
Palestinians are constantly taught to fight Israel tooth and nail: http://www.haaretz.com/news/new-palestinian-high-school-textbooks-reject-existence-of-israel-peace-1.215993

The level of hatred and racist theocratic rule going on in Palestine is astounding. They are taught to hate and kill every Jew.

You said racism should be criticized at every turn. And yet these actions are going on in palestine and much of the Islamic world. This level of racism is being taught in British Islamic schools. Not only that israel should not exist, but that Jews are all evil. There is no way this education will ever lead to compromise and peace. Israel has attempted to slowly ease blocks but every time it does, rocket fire increases and there is more Israeli death. I have cited you these articles in the past, Hertz, but you do not seem to understand that by attacking Israel when Israel is looking for a cease fire or easing road blocks Hamas only makes Palestinians look like terrorists, and with the education system in Palestine, soon they will be brainwashed terrorists.

The UN either needs to A) step in and take over Gaza and the West Bank, reform them, then nationalize them. or B) Stay out of the conflict because they have a clear bias and fail to note and take action on the racism in Palestine focusing purely on any little thing wrong in Israel.

If you hate racism so much start bashing the Palestinians at least as hard as you bash Israelis. As much as you claim you hate Hamas too, you don't.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 2:06:14 PM   
hertz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20

Hertz maybe its time you realize Hamas and almost all Palestinian leadership is racist and seeks a racially and religiously pure theocracy.


You mean in the same way as you accept that the Israeli leadership is racist and seeks a religiously pure theocracy?

quote:

Palestinian groups have used ambulances to get bombs into Israel.


Israeli groups have used violence and murder to get Jewish settlements into the West Bank.

quote:

Hamas fires from civilian infrastructure.


Israel fires at civilians.

quote:

Hamas has trained young children how to fire guns at Jews.


The children of Israeli settlers are trained to think of Arabs as some sort of sub-species (the Nazis used to teach that the Poles were a sub-species). Nice.

quote:

Palestinians are constantly taught to fight Israel tooth and nail: http://www.haaretz.com/news/new-palestinian-high-school-textbooks-reject-existence-of-israel-peace-1.215993


Israelis are constantly taught to fight Arabs tooth and nail.

quote:

The level of hatred and racist theocratic rule going on in Palestine is astounding. They are taught to hate and kill every Jew.


The level of hatred and racist theocratic rule going on in Israel is astounding. They are taught to hate and kill every Palestinian.

quote:

You said racism should be criticized at every turn. And yet these actions are going on in palestine and much of the Islamic world. This level of racism is being taught in British Islamic schools.


Indeed.

quote:

Not only that israel should not exist, but that Jews are all evil. There is no way this education will ever lead to compromise and peace.


I don't think Israel should exist, but I don't believe all Jews are evil, or that all Jews should be killed. The problem is, much of the Israeli governemtn does not believe Palestine should exist. How is that going to lead to peace? Or is it OK for Israel to deny the rights of Palestinians to a state, but not vice versa?

quote:

Israel has attempted to slowly ease blocks but every time it does


Nonsense. Israel has done no such thing.

quote:

I have cited you these articles in the past, Hertz, but you do not seem to understand that by attacking Israel when Israel is looking for a cease fire or easing road blocks Hamas only makes Palestinians look like terrorists, and with the education system in Palestine, soon they will be brainwashed terrorists.


Ah, this must be the 'Propaganda' you mentioned in the title. Israel is not looking for a ceasefire - we all know it. And we all know that the terrorists in Israel are slowly but surely dragging Israel ever closer to fascism.

quote:

The UN either needs to A) step in and take over Gaza and the West Bank, reform them, then nationalize them. or B) Stay out of the conflict because they have a clear bias and fail to note and take action on the racism in Palestine focusing purely on any little thing wrong in Israel.


Israel must be reformed. How much longer must the world put up with this racist abomination?

quote:

If you hate racism so much start bashing the Palestinians at least as hard as you bash Israelis. As much as you claim you hate Hamas too, you don't.


I never claimed to hate Hamas. I claimed not to agree with their targeting of civilians, and not to be a keen fan of fundamentalism. Hamas, unfortunately, is a necessary evil. Hamas is what you get when you treat your neighbour with utter contempt, murdering them, and stealing their land from them.



< Message edited by hertz -- 11/29/2010 2:07:52 PM >

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 2:15:03 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline 		What the Israelis are really getting up to in the illegally occupied West Bank...

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 2:28:09 PM   
MasterNJ20


Posts: 66
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/17201/what-do-israeli-palestinian-texts-say-about-conflict/

You can look up the studies cited in this article if you don't trust the article itself, Hertz. The racism you keep speaking of on the side of the Israeli's is largely over stated and they are much more progressive than their neighbors. The level of hate in Israel is one you get from living surrounded by terrorists. The level of hate in Palestine is one from collaborating with Nazi's in the early 40's about eliminating the Jews. This hate has stuck around and festered in their system. Reform happens in Israel and their attitude has become dampened with long battles. Hate has always been around against the Jews and Israel.

And the murders of which I speak are when Israel began to ease back from Gaza to return the land (before the lull before cast lead) rocket fire increased, not decreased. Recently, as I've said, road blocks have been being removed. Murder via Palestinians has occurred in those areas, including a pregnant woman.

There are Arabs in the Israeli Government. You cannot sell your land to a Jew in Palestine. See the difference? Israel deserves criticism, not hatred. Palestine deserves criticism, not the green flag.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 2:47:31 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterNJ20

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/17201/what-do-israeli-palestinian-texts-say-about-conflict/

You can look up the studies cited in this article if you don't trust the article itself, Hertz. The racism you keep speaking of on the side of the Israeli's is largely over stated and they are much more progressive than their neighbors. The level of hate in Israel is one you get from living surrounded by terrorists.


The level of hate one sees in Palestine is also what you get when you have to live surrounded by terrorists who are stealing your land. Of course many Palestinians hate Israel. I don't even live there, and I fucking hate Israel. Imagine how pissed I would be if it was my land the bastards were stealing!

quote:

The level of hate in Palestine is one from collaborating with Nazi's in the early 40's about eliminating the Jews. This hate has stuck around and festered in their system.


This is as bad as the anti-Semitism I get accused of. Disgusting.

quote:

Reform happens in Israel and their attitude has become dampened with long battles.


The Israel of today is hardly 'reformed'. The influx of European Jews looking for a stake in what they seem to think of as a new 'Wild West' is partly responsible for that.

quote:

Hate has always been around against the Jews and Israel.


This is true, I am sure.

quote:

And the murders of which I speak are when Israel began to ease back from Gaza to return the land (before the lull before cast lead) rocket fire increased, not decreased.


Returning the land, but imprisoning the people behind an economic blockade was never going to do much to increase the chances of peace. What's a Palestinian to do? If they fight back, they're wrong, if they sit back, they get their land stolen all across the West Bank. If it were me, I'd fight. Rather that, than sit back and let Israel take all the land.

quote:

Recently, as I've said, road blocks have been being removed. Murder via Palestinians has occurred in those areas, including a pregnant woman.


Right. So Israel kicks the Palestinians in the face for decades, and now they expect the Palestinians to just let it go? I think it might take a bit more than that.

quote:

There are Arabs in the Israeli Government.


8 seats out of 120. The Arab population of Israel is about 20%. 20% of 120 is 24. Where are the other 16 seats?

quote:

You cannot sell your land to a Jew in Palestine.


There's no need to. The Israelis will take it anyway.

quote:

See the difference? Israel deserves criticism, not hatred.


No. I don't see it.

quote:

Palestine deserves criticism, not the green flag.


Criticism is all they get. And they are the people having their land stolen from under their feet by fascists.


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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 2:58:03 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
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It is this what I disagree with, but to put things into perspective, Amnesty international on the subject ;


Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians More than half of Gaza's population are children© Amnesty International

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

31 May 2010 Israel's military blockade of Gaza has left more than 1.4 million Palestinian men, women and children trapped in the Gaza Strip, an area of land just 40 kilometres long and 9.5 kilometres wide.

Mass unemployment, extreme poverty and food price rises caused by shortages have left four in five Gazans dependent on humanitarian aid. As a form of collective punishment, Israel’s continuing blockade of Gaza is a flagrant violation of international law.

The situation in Gaza has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s general closure of the Rafah crossing, although this was opened following the deaths of activists on the Gaza flotilla.

However, it is Israel, as the occupying power, that bears the foremost responsibility for ensuring the welfare of the inhabitants of Gaza.

Closed crossings
Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, none of the Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel has been open in a regular or consistent way, and relatively little aid is getting through.

The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

Basic goods
The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

The situation has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s construction of a steel wall along the border at Rafah to disrupt the cross-border smuggling that has become Gaza’s lifeline, as well as the bombing of tunnels by the Israeli airforce.

Economic collapse
Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.  

According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

Lack of facilities
There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day.  There are also recurrent shortages of cooking gas, requiring the implementation of a rationing scheme in which hospitals and bakeries are prioritized.

Aid blocked
While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

The Israeli authorities frequently delay or refuse these permits; some Gazans have died while waiting to obtain permits to leave the territory for medical treatment elsewhere.

World Health Organization (WHO) trucks of medical equipment bound for Gazan hospitals have repeatedly been turned away, without explanation, by Israeli border officials.

The Gaza conflict
From 27 December 2008 to 18 January 2009, Gaza was subjected to a devastating Israeli military offensive – Operation “Cast Lead” – which Israel said it carried out to stop Hamas and other Palestinian armed groups firing indiscriminate rockets into Israel.

More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

Continued violence
In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

Israeli military forces, meanwhile, have conducted regular raids into Gaza and have continued to bomb the tunnels under the border at Rafah used for smuggling between Gaza and Egypt. In the year following Operation “Cast Lead”, 71 Palestinians were killed and 130 injured in the Gaza tunnels from tunnel collapse, accidents or airstrikes.

Israeli soldiers also continue to shoot at Palestinian farmers, fishermen and other civilians when they venture near Gaza’s perimeter or approach the three nautical mile limit that Israel imposes on Gaza’s coastline causing deaths and injuries. 

Collective punishment
The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 3:37:58 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

MasterNJ20
The UN either needs to A) step in and take over Gaza and the West Bank, reform them, then nationalize them.



Please excuse me being judgemental but this is possibly the finest suggestion you have made. I agree with it completely. UN Resolution 242 provides the perfect foundation for such an intervention.

Everything about this idea says win-win to me. Only the extremists on both sides will lose.





< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/29/2010 3:46:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 4:49:38 PM   
MasterNJ20


Posts: 66
Joined: 6/18/2010
Status: offline 		For Hertz, the Arab world did work with the Nazi's and asked them to help with the "Jew problem". You are unable or unwilling to realize the racism that was going on before 1940's even. More Jews were forced from their homes in the Middle-East than Palestinians left theirs, remember that when you go around saying land was stolen.

The text book studies I've shown you show that this hatred remains.

By using plain clothes militants Hamas forces Israel to be secure about civilians. It is an unfortunate side effect of having terrorists being dressed like civilians, and I've cited many websites in the past with arguments negating many of Amnesties points so you have your sources I have mine, no one is going to say the other is right.

What we need is a UN reform in Palestine. When rockets stop firing from Palestine Israel will relax. Israel's education system has been shown to be much more tolerant of the Palestinian view point than the Palestinian system of the Jews in general and say Israel has no right to exist.

The UN will never be allowed to reform and monitor Palestine because Israel will fear the UN putting an extremist in power and Hamas fearing losing extremism in Palestine. Antisemitism is alive and well in the Islamic world and even if the Palestinians admit "we lost, lets have peace" the surrounding Arabs will pressure them into fighting anyway.

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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 6:45:40 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline 		Anerin's posting from Amnesty International is a good example of why it is often seen as an HGO biased against Israel. Its a long article and I don't have answers for everything but I'll address a few key points through it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


It is this what I disagree with, but to put things into perspective, Amnesty international on the subject ;

Suffocating Gaza - the Israeli blockade's effects on Palestinians http://www.amnesty.org/sites/www.amnesty.org/themes/aitheme/images/icon_enlarge.gif[/image][/link]More than half of Gaza's population are children© Amnesty International

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/suffocating-gaza-israeli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

31 May 2010
The situation in Gaza has been made worse by the Egyptian government’s general closure of the Rafah crossing, although this was opened following the deaths of activists on the Gaza flotilla.

Here Amnesty calls the Turkish individuals on the Mavi Mariner "activists" - note the date of the report as it is issued on the very day the killings occurred. Thus we see Amnesty immediately taking the side of pro-Palestinians despite the fact that the IHH had at the time been described publicly by numerous states as a terrorist organisation. This is what bias looks like.

quote:


Closed crossings
Since the blockade of Gaza was imposed in June 2007, none of the Israeli-controlled crossings between Gaza and Israel has been open in a regular or consistent way, and relatively little aid is getting through.

The one other land crossing at Rafah, on the border between Gaza and Egypt, is kept shut most of the time. The closures prevent the movement of Palestinians into and out of Gaza in all but a handful of cases, generally in exceptional humanitarian cases.

An outright lie. The Israeli border crossing is open most hours of the day to transport a near continual stream of aid. Israel ships this aid in and at the time of the Flotilla incident has shipped in roughly one ton of aid per person since the Gaza war.

quote:


Basic goods
The blockade prohibits most exports and restricts the entry of basic goods, including food and fuel. Much of the available food is provided by the UN and other aid agencies, or smuggled in through tunnels running under the Egypt-Gaza border and then sold on at exorbitantly high prices to Gaza’s beleaguered residents.

It was restrictive but has been eased considerably. This is largely a lie as there is a lot of fuel in Gaza which Israel has brought in including over 140 million litres of fuel and many thousands of tons of gas. Similarly most of the food is transported by Israel into Gaza.

quote:


Economic collapse
Rather than targeting armed groups, the blockade mainly hits the most vulnerable, such as children (who make up more than half of the population in Gaza), the elderly, the sick and the Gaza Strip's large refugee population.  

According to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency, the number of refugees living in abject poverty in the Gaza Strip has tripled since the blockade began. These families lack the means to purchase even the most basic items, including soap, school materials and clean drinking water. According to the UN, more than 60 per cent of households are currently "food insecure".

It is an outright lie to say more than half the population of Gaza are children. There is a substantial youth population in Gaza but they are not children. It is true that conditions in Gaza have worsened significantly since the blockade has begun but the essentials for existence are quite plentiful. BTW Israel supplies the water in Gaza and has offered to improve the treatment of water and drainage which Hamas has refused but of course Israel is blamed every time.

quote:


Lack of facilities
There are worsening problems with the supply of electricity in the Gaza Strip, with many residents enduring 8-12 hours of power cuts each day. 

Again there is failure to mention that Israel supplies most of the electricity to Gaza - strange that.

quote:


Aid blocked
While Israel allows some humanitarian supplies from international aid agencies into Gaza, these are strictly limited and frequently delayed. UN agencies have said that additional storage and transportation costs incurred from delays due to the blockade totalled around $5 million in 2009.

Israel allowed aid into Gaza that did not clash with the proscribed list, and delays are often due to searches. Delays causing 5 million are not significant when shipping in a massive volume of aid worth several billion dollars.

quote:


Health
Gaza's health sector has been plagued by shortages in equipment and medical supplies during the blockade.

Following the Israeli closure of crossings, people with medical conditions that cannot be treated in Gaza have been required to apply for permits to leave the territory to receive treatment in either foreign hospitals or Palestinian hospitals in the West Bank.

The "foreign" hospitals are invariably Israeli hospitals - interesting use of words. Over 10,000 Palestinians were treated in Israel for serious conditions between the end of the Gaza war and the time of that "report" (May 2010). Whilst that doesn't seem to be sufficient for a population of 1.4 million it still doesn't bear any resemblance to the picture Amnesty paints.

quote:


The Gaza conflict
More then 1,380 Palestinians were killed, including more than 300 children and other civilians, and thousands were injured. Many thousands of homes were destroyed or severely damaged, as were the electricity and water systems. Civilian buildings, including hospitals and schools, were also damaged or destroyed by Israeli attacks.

Operation “Cast Lead” pushed the humanitarian crisis in Gaza to catastrophic levels. Since it concluded, the blockade has severely hampered or prevented reconstruction efforts. With many construction materials barred or limited by Israel, Gaza’s inhabitants are unable to rebuild their shattered lives.

Here we see the the complete acceptance of Hamas' casualty figures which Hamas itself disproved a month ago due to pressures. Hamas' new figures are largely in accordance with Israeli figures which were completely dismissed by NGO's like Amnesty. Yes Israel did limit reconstruction materials but its primary concern is in keeping Hamas militarily weak. A tough decision likely to hurt Gazan's? Definitely but this is a serious conflict, not a picnic where one side plays a mean bully.

quote:


Continued violence
In November 2009, Hamas declared a unilateral cessation of rocket fire, although this has since been breached on several occasions by members of Palestinian armed groups.

Since the ceasefire following Operation “Cast Lead” in January 2009, one person in southern Israel has been killed by mortars and rockets fired by Palestinian armed groups.

Note the selective use of information intended to mislead by mentioning the casualty figures after Cast Lead alone, and by making out that only other Palestinian "armed groups" broke the ceasefire which is completely untrue - low level rocket and mortar attacks continue to this day. Hamas resumed rocket fire the following month (December 2008) leading to the war. Many claim Israel broke the ceasefire the previous month but the attacks were near Israel's border where it is claimed Hamas operatives were tunnelling into Israel presumably to get another Gilad Shilat to use as a bargaining chip.

quote:


Collective punishment
The Israeli authorities have put forward a range of justifications for the blockade - saying variously that it is a response to attacks from Palestinian armed groups, a reaction to the continued holding of the captured Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and a means to pressure the Hamas de facto administration.

But whatever its stated justification, the blockade is collectively punishing the entire population of Gaza, the majority of whom are children, rather than targeting the Hamas administration or armed groups.



An embargo is always going to hurt the population but if it was truly a collective punishment wouldn't they shut off electricity and water supplies too? Of course they would. People have called it an effective siege. Its the most peculiar siege I have ever heard of for sieges are largely designed to starve a populace into submission. of course pro-Palestinians have tried to make out Gazan's are starving but after the pictures of aid and markets a few months back that claim strangely faded away! What is absurd is that they say Israel should somehow magically target Hamas etc. rather than the population whilst simultaneously criticising Israel for strikes above, and failing to mention the remarkably low civilian to combatant death rate, unmatched by other armies during the conflict. The fact of the matter is that Gazan's elected Hamas after the group vowed to continue the conflict. Now that Hamas are in power, they are the ones that will benefit by opening borders and allowing trade. Iran has attempted several times to bring large shipments of more advanced weaponry, and there can be no doubt the increased revenue will be used to aid further and far more intensive conflict.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 8:10:39 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		There have been improvements on what is and is not allowed into Gaza, prohibited items being those that are weapons or dual use, (can be made into weapons).But whatever has been said by the Israeli government to ease worldwide concerns, there are charges that no one has told those on the ground, for they still act independantly of what the Israeli government has told the international community.

But for general information a list of those items that according to those who supply Gaza are now allowed in and what is not, as to an official list it does not exist or is not available for the world to see, as so far the Israeli government has refused to publish ;

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMessages/ItemsGazaStrip060510.pdf

Now I understand the Israeli concerns about security and there the desire to prevent weapons or things that can be made into weapons falling into the hands of the militant factions in Gaza, but I just have to ask, why are  fishing rods, nets and  ropes, musical instruments and A4 paper prevented, pray tell me what danger those items present to Israeli security.

Unless of course the reason is economic blockade, the desire to prevent the Gazans from being independant in their food requirements and prevent businesses growing and becoming some sort of economy, as is indicated by a ban on anything farming and many of the things we in our world take for granted. Could it be if any money is to be made in Gaza, then it is for Israel to supply and no one else.




_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 11/29/2010 10:59:45 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

MasterNJ20

What we need is a UN reform in Palestine. When rockets stop firing from Palestine Israel will relax. Israel's education system has been shown to be much more tolerant of the Palestinian view point than the Palestinian system of the Jews in general and say Israel has no right to exist.

The UN will never be allowed to reform and monitor Palestine because Israel will fear the UN putting an extremist in power and Hamas fearing losing extremism in Palestine. Antisemitism is alive and well in the Islamic world and even if the Palestinians admit "we lost, lets have peace" the surrounding Arabs will pressure them into fighting anyway.


I have seen some of the 'educational" material used in Palestinian schools. It is nakedly racist. It is rank anti-Jewish hate. To poison the minds of children with this filth is contemptible.

When I point this out to Palestinian friends, they say "yes we know it is awful, but we can't change it while a state of war exists, while the Israelis continue to steal our land and murder us". They then go on to argue that Israel's own actions contribute and feed the anti-Jewish hate. And on that last point - I am unable to offer a counter-position, they are perfectly correct. The Palestinians I have met can be loosely divided into two groups - those that blindly hate Israel and those that are prepared to live with Israel, who understand and accept the need for Palestinians and Israelis both to change and compromise to bring about peace.

I don't know what is taught in Israeli schools. But when I speak to Israelis and Australian Jewish friends with a strong attachment to Israel, I find I can divide them loosely into two groups too. Both groups agree that Palestinian terrorism contribute and feed the anti-Palestinian hate. And on that last point - I am unable to offer a counter-position, they are perfectly correct. There are those that blindly hate Arabs and blame everything on 'terrorists' and 'anti-Semitism'; and those who understand and accept the need for Palestinians and Israelis both to change and compromise to bring about peace. In the US, the emergence of J Street as an alternative to the sterile AIPAC group is a welcome development that resonates with my experience.

The issue of rockets is a perfect example of why change is needed on both sides. In the article I quoted earlier in the thread, I was surprised to read:
"In fact, there's an interesting correlation between [the number of] Israel's state-of-the-art democratically minded missile-firings between 2000 and 2007 – 34,050 – and Hamas's evil, terrorist-inspired missile firings: a rather piffling 2,333."*
This tells me that we need to stop rockets being fired in both directions.

The point I am trying to make here is that both sides have been blaming the other side since time the conflict began and it has gotten us all precisely nowhere. We can continue in this vein and it's easy to predict that the outcome will remain precisely the same. Just as in a personal dispute with a lover, it is always easy to blame the other for everything and thus avoid having to look in the mirror and ask ourselves: what is it that I am doing that is causing or contributing to this? Denial is so much easier, but in the long run, actually cowardly and far more destructive.

The other point I am trying to develop here is that there are people of good will on both sides, who have long been sidelined marginalised by the haters and war mongers on both sides. People who are prepared to accept that change starts within and are prepared to take responsibility and DO it. The great Daniel Barenboim's wonderful mixed Israeli-Palestinian youth orchestra comes to mind here as one notable example. I am sure there lots of others - mixed Palestinian-Israeli villages, joint schools and so on. It is ridiculous to assert that the problems of the area can be solved by an orchestra, a village or two or a school. However, Barenboim is showing us one way of opening the door to peace, and seizing the initiative back from the extremists. Barenboim sees the conflict as unique, a conflict where both sides are right. Visionary stuff.

Previously I was hopeful that we had agreed on one possible route that might bring peace, and all its benefits to the area, and all its inhabitants. I don't for a moment pretend that it is a panacea that will instantly resolve all outstanding issues. I remain optimistic that ordinary people on both sides will choose peace over war everyday. Even if I lived there, I am sure I would feel the same. Lose hope and sooner or later you will lose everything.

In a situation like the Middle East, it takes a lot more courage to chart a course to peace than to push a button and launch a rocket or point a finger or gun and pull the trigger. Yet the rewards that courage can generate will long outlast the damage a rocket can cause. Your suggestion of UN intervention is a good positive first step towards peace that deliver benefits to all sides. Please, let's build on that. It beats the alternative every time.


*http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisk-oceans-of-blood-and-profits-for-the-mongers-of-war-2145037.html




< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 11/29/2010 11:10:43 PM >

(in reply to MasterNJ20)
Profile   Post #: 40
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