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RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 6:18:40 AM   
CerVeza


Posts: 156
Joined: 10/13/2010
Status: offline 		There are a lot of israelis who think hugging the enemy will work. I will say the jews there are 100% brighter than our US jews. Reality has a way of making one either smart or dead. But really, it's the lefts way isn't it? Surrender, play nice, kissy kissy, hate the USA, then all will be well! I feel a chorus of kumbaya coming on!!!

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 6:20:36 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Right. It isn't like the Democrats have ever started any wars, is it?
Don't talk such drivel.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to CerVeza)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 6:32:11 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

In fact, there's a large number of IDF members who've been disciplined, or even imprisoned, for refusing to have any part in the occupation of Gaza.




Now that takes real courage and integrity!

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 6:36:10 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Yep.
It's why I find this crap about "all Israelis want to commit genocide" a bit pathetic. If it isn't even all of the fucking IDF, it's not going to be the whole country, is it?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 8:15:09 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		I must say, I find this thread becoming refreshing of late as it speaks of  understanding rather than the usual shit fest of; I'm right, your'e wrong, jew hater, anti semite bullshit that usually infests a conversation anytime anyone tries to arrive at some sort of sense in the situation.

So far we have got the fact that statistics amount to pain suffering and lives lost irrespective of who they are other than fellow humans, lives that were set to live, love and create cruelly cut short because of anothers ideology. We also seem to have arrived at the understanding that in this situation just like many others the few make the many look bad and it is the actions of the minority that create one's view depending on where one wants to grind their axe as if it is a persons own personal war they must fight safely on the internet instead of the cruel realities as they present themselves on the ground in the actual situation of life or death on a daily basis.

But as to the notion that many Palestinians want to kill the Israelis, well, lets look at the situation, I find putting oneself in anothers shoes so to speak helpful in discerning a possible human truth devoid of the ideological icing on the cake. Ok, say for example one lived in a land occupied by a foreign power and that power was intentionaly refusing to allow the subjugated people the right to purchase goods that they had had in the past and they know are available and in common use the world over, how would one feel about those people, if it is anything other than displeasure, I will be very surprised as human nature says otherwise.

Now take a situation where denial of certain goods has lead to tragedy, the death of a loved human, how would that situation affect the displeasure felt towards the occupier. Now say that tragedy was not an isolated case and has similarity to other situations, would the blood in you not start to heat a little ? What if the tragedies and similar situations become a relatively common occurence and coupled with that a person who already with some dislike experienced other restrictions on their creator given life that prevented you from living your life in a way you used to and are aware the world does so freely, I wonder what the feeling would be towards the prison guards, for that is what Gaza is with this goods and  free movement blockade, it is an open air prison and the people in there condemned without trial because of the actions of a few who just happen to hold enough power to maintain their position by propaganda and force of violence to those who choose not to follow the party line. Also, it is common that an oppressed people come to view criminals as saviours in times of survival, as criminals have the will to fight by their very nature of being a criminal i.e. outside of the law. Look to any situation where oppressed people have sided with criminals and those criminals have gone on to be political entities who fight for freedom in a more tasteful way and some who still revert to violence when the situation demands.

Having said all that, I know for sure, myself in that situation would be hating the injustice with a vengeance and with that the instigator of the injustice. I might also depending on what personal situations that have affected me, be willing to fight and kill for an end to the injustice and the right to freedom, just as many have, even countries when faced with oppression from others.

Now as to the situation as befits the Israeli hatred towards the Palestinian, the same applies when a threat is reinforced with action that leads to the maiming , death and destruction of people, here I am referring to the Hamas, Hezbollah and other militants rocket fire into Israel that has caused tragedy that is felt by people. Further to that is propaganda issued by the controlling authority to garner support for their mentality and oppressive actions against an ethnic minority. Perhaps it is even a policy to antagonise another ethnicity into reprisal to justify state sanctioned action, as is I believe is being done by the housing situation in East Jerusalem, as sure, it is going to boil over at some point, the injustice will give way to violence, a violence some in authority desire most to satisfy their own designs, there using their people for their own ideology.

This is what it all amounts to, the desire for freedom, freedom to live life as per the normal human instinct to survive in the best way possible, but it does not help when there are powers away from the situation controlling the mood of the people.

So what are these people that desire death, destruction or exile of another ethnicity, racist is one description, but what else is at work here ?


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 10:13:23 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
If they allowed in materials for the manufacture of paper then it seems to me that any restrictions in distribution wouldn't be enforced. As far as I know the use of cement was controlled by internationals but I have heard nothing similar re. paper. If it is true maybe they only wanted international schools teaching children when Palestinian schoold teach incitement as NJ20's links show. BTW the reason I find the stuff about the restriction of paper unlikely is because Gaza has several newspapers which have continued operating.

Lots of if's, maybe's, as far as I know's and  an unlikely in there too, which amounts to supposition, not sure of your facts perchance ? If you are sure, please provide the proof for all to see.
Also for your information, A4 paper is not newspaper, and latter being printed on is not a lot of use for writing or further printing on.

Anerin, you have come on here talking the sort of very basic stuff that only someone who knows very very little indeed would say. Now you are suddenly an expert because you read a couple of reports by a biased NGO. The fact of the matter as I stated before is that Israel allows in paper. I have heard it was restricted so I offered an example of why that might be. It was of course supposition as I made clear but since when was supposition such a terrible thing? I made the assumption about it relating to education because the paper was available for international organisations that teach a lot of the children in Gaza. Then I asserted that paper is made in Gaza for it is shipped in by Israel. If newspapers are being made in Gaza then they must not have a shortage of paper to produce A4 paper which “for your information” is made of the same materials.

quote:


 So you are telling me that there are people who in Israel are actually against their Government and the IDF's stance towards the Palestinian people other than the non partisan organisation I quoted, I find that just excellent, thank you for informing me  there are more in Israel who see those that govern them and say they act in their defence are doing what they are doing against many of their citizens wishes. My faith in good ordinary people is enhanced and with that the problem that the world sees is just a paranoid right wing racist government that is losing ground from within and from without.

All that is needed now, is for the UN to get in there, sort out Hamas, sort out the people and reveal to the world if the Israeli government is lying or not. If they are found to be liars, then chase them for war crimes and other crimes where they apply, if not, then the Israeli government is vindicated, but either way with Hamas out of action what complaint will the Israeli government have then, if none, then they can start treating the Palestinians with a bit of respect as is due their status as human beings, that is if the present regime is allowed to stay in power, but with crimes agains them where they apply, I somehow think not, the UN gets in there, the present Israeli government are screwed and they know it.

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit so it suits you well although you could deliver it better IMHO. Anerin you do come across as someone who dislikes Jews, perhaps even hates them for you actually said on here several times on another thread that they more or less got what they deserved in Europe. Now you are admiring people in Israel who oppose the state of Israel. These people demonise the state just as you do so is it any wonder you would portray them as "good" people. You might like to know that David Duke and other neo-Nazi’s do the same. Your idea about the UN is stupid. If you knew anything about the conflict you would know that they were involved in these contested regions to a varying extent since the 1950’s and abjectly failed to bring stability or even prevent outright war between nations. It is also a deeply biased organisation so there is no confidence it will stand up for any of the basic Israeli concerns about security. As I said before it is Hamas and the UN that lied about many many issues surrounding the Gaza war. You now want the very people who acted as propagandists for Hamas to come in and judge whether or not Israel or Hamas lied. Thus all you want is pretty much a repeat of the Goldstone sham.

quote:


Again, you appear to be not so sure of your facts, and the list that I provided courtesy of Gisha.org was a list compiled by asking those that normally supply Gaza based upon what has been asked for and whether it was allowed or denied. The list was reported to not be exhaustive and what was on either list could change status without warning as to an official list, that has been requested by Gisha.Org, but so far has been refused, my question to that is why ?

If the Israeli government and the IDF are working honourably what have they got to hide, why the refusal, as the release of such a document to the world's scrutiny can only exist to strenghten the Israeli government and the IDFs position if they are honourable in their action, but I can well understand the situation if they are not, duck and cover as they say.

It seems you made an effort at textual clarity after I told you that your grasp of your native tongue was poor. However, your sentences are becoming jumbled again. So I said “AFAIK” – big deal! The Israeli – Palestinian conflict is extremely complex and with pro-Palestinian claim and counter-claim it is hard to deduce what is true at times and what isn’t so do excuse the “AFAIK” especially since you clearly know considerably less about the conflict judging by your previous posts, some of which are deeply stupid. Similarly the “if what I heard is true” relates to an unpublished list. I should add such qualifications because unlike you, I actually care about truth. I didn’t look up that particular webpage as you are littering long copy and paste jobs with loads of links on here now. What I can tell you is that there was a list of allowed items before June 2010 and after that a list of proscribed items which is listed in detail. Anything outside of those proscribed items is allowed into Gaza. This was made clear in many news stories at the time such as http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-06-17/israel-eases-gaza-blockade-allows-in-more-imports-update5-.html - “Blair also said that there would be a change “from the so- called permitted list of items, where things only come in when they’re on that list, to the prohibited list, where things come in unless they’re on that list. Erakat said that Israel has allowed only 114 items into Gaza.” – referring to the previous list of permitted items that I said was too limited. There can be all manner of reasons why a list is refused. Perhaps some feel it could be used for propaganda purposes since Israel is judged harshly no matter what they do. Again though I say Israel changed the way the managed what items were to be proscribed by explicitly listing them

quote:


I find it extremely unlikely that the IDF would invade Gaza without first shelling it and bombing it into oblivion, and then go in with the use of tanks and armoured personel carriers with possible helicopter gunship support so the restriction on cement is weak if it was believed it would be used for bunker construction, which they need not fear, as they have aircraft and lazer guided bombs along with a satellite hanging around up there and access to others plus other  friendly country's intelligence on the area, they would know where bunkers if they existed were, which would be unlikely after the aircraft had done their bit. Furthermore concrete  for impact protection is not a lot of use without reinforcing and I understand there was a ban on that kind of stuff also.

Yeah, and a sort of substitute doesn't quite cut it when it is civilians that become targets whether intended or not, unless of course there are some that believe an irregular outfit such as Hamas might be hiding in amongst the civilians, but, without air raid shelters what are people to do except just accept they live an unfair and unacceptable fragile existence during operations against Gaza and  the elements when they cannot repair or rebuild shell damaged housing.


So you find it "extremely unlikely" - well good for you but the last time I looked you were no expert on the conflict and couple that with the fact you clearly hate Israel as you believe any filth said about it then I would of course expect you to say you find it "extremely unlikely". It really is time to cut out the bullshit and the gibberish Anerin. You criticise me making a reasoned supposition but then speculate to deliver another utterly unfounded criticism of Israel. As I have said before Israel contacted a great number of civilians in Gaza before bombing raids which is surely the best way of getting people out of trouble in the conflict. By doing this Israel actually gave Hamas an advantage by having prior warning so in fact that a raid in a given area was coming. This Israel put the interests of the civilians above their military objectives. It should be clear even to a dull-witted person like yourself that it is infinitely better to leave an area than take cover in a bomb shelter. Your point about bunker busting bombs is similarly invalid for Hamas has an overt policy of placing military targets in civilian areas and even buildings such as hospitals. Thus they would not necessarily be out in the open for all to see and Israel could not target such installations without causing massive damage and death. Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza and the fact that such a low civilian death toll relative to the combatant death toll proves that to be the case. If they had the death toll would be a multiple of what it currently is.

A target is a deliberate thing being targeted. It cannot be a target if it is not intended. Look up the word. BTW Hamas are not "irregulars" - they are the controling force in Gaza.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 11:17:19 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I must say, I find this thread becoming refreshing of late as it speaks of  understanding rather than the usual shit fest of; I'm right, your'e wrong, jew hater, anti semite bullshit that usually infests a conversation anytime anyone tries to arrive at some sort of sense in the situation.

Here we have a repeat of Anerin's wish to completely remove the term anti-Semitic no matter how relevant it might be to the general debate. The fact that there has been significant elevations in violence toward Jews and their property in the West with no connection to Israel at times of conflict in the Middle-East proves anti-Semitism in an issue. Even where there has been little mention of that word he still choses to criticise those who use such an argument. Lets start a campaign to completely remove it from the language!

quote:


So far we have got the fact that statistics amount to pain suffering and lives lost irrespective of who they are other than fellow humans, lives that were set to live, love and create cruelly cut short because of anothers ideology. We also seem to have arrived at the understanding that in this situation just like many others the few make the many look bad and it is the actions of the minority that create one's view depending on where one wants to grind their axe as if it is a persons own personal war they must fight safely on the internet instead of the cruel realities as they present themselves on the ground in the actual situation of life or death on a daily basis.

You have arrived at an understanding - there is no "we" as far as I can see. You have merely accepted the arguments of pro-Palestinians whilst criticising those that support Isarel. That is not a balanced approach where you have come to some sort of profound understanding. It is your attempt to find arguments to back up your hatred of Israel itself. You talk about the pain behind the statistics but have not even acknowledged Israel's extraordinariy low civilian to combatant death rate. In fact you poored cold water on it. That is bias.

quote:


But as to the notion that many Palestinians want to kill the Israelis, well, lets look at the situation, I find putting oneself in anothers shoes so to speak helpful in discerning a possible human truth devoid of the ideological icing on the cake. Ok, say for example one lived in a land occupied by a foreign power and that power was intentionaly refusing to allow the subjugated people the right to purchase goods that they had had in the past and they know are available and in common use the world over, how would one feel about those people, if it is anything other than displeasure, I will be very surprised as human nature says otherwise.

Now take a situation where denial of certain goods has lead to tragedy, the death of a loved human, how would that situation affect the displeasure felt towards the occupier. Now say that tragedy was not an isolated case and has similarity to other situations, would the blood in you not start to heat a little ? What if the tragedies and similar situations become a relatively common occurence and coupled with that a person who already with some dislike experienced other restrictions on their creator given life that prevented you from living your life in a way you used to and are aware the world does so freely, I wonder what the feeling would be towards the prison guards, for that is what Gaza is with this goods and  free movement blockade, it is an open air prison and the people in there condemned without trial because of the actions of a few who just happen to hold enough power to maintain their position by propaganda and force of violence to those who choose not to follow the party line. Also, it is common that an oppressed people come to view criminals as saviours in times of survival, as criminals have the will to fight by their very nature of being a criminal i.e. outside of the law. Look to any situation where oppressed people have sided with criminals and those criminals have gone on to be political entities who fight for freedom in a more tasteful way and some who still revert to violence when the situation demands.

This is a good example of why I have said you know virtually nothing about the conflict in the post above. Well before Israel imposed any restrictions on Gaza, the people voted for Hamas who said publicly they would continue to make war with Israel. It was after they were elected that Israel imposed restrictions when the number of rocket attacks multiplied. Thus the people of Gaza chose war. They bear genuine moral responsibility for what they did so do not pretend the Palestinians are a peace loving people that horrible propagandists in Israel are trying to make out as war mongers. Polls taken by different agencies over the years have shown only 20% or so are willing to accept Israel's existence.

quote:


Now as to the situation as befits the Israeli hatred towards the Palestinian, the same applies when a threat is reinforced with action that leads to the maiming , death and destruction of people, here I am referring to the Hamas, Hezbollah and other militants rocket fire into Israel that has caused tragedy that is felt by people. Further to that is propaganda issued by the controlling authority to garner support for their mentality and oppressive actions against an ethnic minority. Perhaps it is even a policy to antagonise another ethnicity into reprisal to justify state sanctioned action, as is I believe is being done by the housing situation in East Jerusalem, as sure, it is going to boil over at some point, the injustice will give way to violence, a violence some in authority desire most to satisfy their own designs, there using their people for their own ideology.

This is what it all amounts to, the desire for freedom, freedom to live life as per the normal human instinct to survive in the best way possible, but it does not help when there are powers away from the situation controlling the mood of the people.

So what are these people that desire death, destruction or exile of another ethnicity, racist is one description, but what else is at work here ?

Here you try to sound balanced by criticising Hamas etc. but lay blame for these conditions squarely on Israel. There is no oppression of Arabs in Israel be they Christian, Arab or Jew. There can be some discrimination at times but this is in the context of a difficult protracted conflict so that should be no surprise. In the UK after the War German people had to change their names or leave. Muslims are treated with respect. When a girl of fourteen stuck a picture of Mohammad as a pig in Hebron she was sent down for two years. Arabic is the second of just two official languages of the State and Palestinians have equal rights of representation politically. It is in the Palestinian territories that there is religious and racial oppression. There is no question that Jews will not be allowed to stay in any prospective Palestinian state. Whilst Arab Christian numbers are increasing in Israel they are taking a nose dive in Palestine. Bethleham once had a Christian majority. It no longer does due to Islamicisation - Christians make up 10% of the population now. You talk about propaganda but neglect to mention that children are radicalised almost from birth not only in Gaza but under the "moderate" Palestinian Authority, where on children's shows their much loved characters are murdered by the IDF. There is no equivalent no matter how remote, even amongst hardline settlers. They teach children that the Protocols of the Zionist Elders is fact - this BTW was one of the major justifications for the Holocaust and is thought throughout the Arab world. It is even free in some states. So much for Israeli inequities.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 11:23:28 AM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		O leader of the assembly,  I see you have resorted to personal attack again, with that I deduce you have lost your argument for you cannot bring facts to the table for others of this world to see and judge for themselves. You have failed miserably in whatever action you thought was the right ( wing ?) way, for I am not the only one that thinks you are full of hate and shit.

From this thread and others before it I have changed my stance from what education I received before which was I admit general to what I have found out for myself, I have been educated and now understand yes, there is a problem, but as I suspected and said earlier, it is not all of the Israelis, that then based upon my belief in the basic good of the common man, but later finding out about non profit making non partisan Israeli organisations within Israel, academics and other professional people who do not support the actions of a government that says it speaks for all.

And no, it was not an attempt at sarcasm, for I do believe the United Nations would do well to physically involve themselves in Gaza for the sake of all right thinking people world wide.

N.B. Right thinking and right action as in the right thing to do for all people, not right wing as serves a few with undoubtable racist tendancies.

If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him.

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become.

Wise words attributed to a wise man,  and with your education I don't have to tell you from where that originates, but you could always Google it I suppose if you find your education lacking in anything other than bile,hatred and lies.

And with that O leader of the assembly, I bid you farewell, for I have now found it is necessary for me to exercise a function of this website for the first time in five years, that of consigning you to that lonely place in my ignore bin, as I have truly lost patience with you.



_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 1:38:12 PM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

As I have said before Israel contacted a great number of civilians in Gaza before bombing raids which is surely the best way of getting people out of trouble in the conflict. By doing this Israel actually gave Hamas an advantage by having prior warning so in fact that a raid in a given area was coming. This Israel put the interests of the civilians above their military objectives.


Magical misdirection. During the attack on Gaza, Israel littered the whole area with leaflets seeking information and threatening to kill anyone with any connection to Hamas. Here's what these leaflets look like:



This translates to:
quote:

Dear people of the Gaza Strip, Bear the responsibility for your fate!

The Projectile launchers and the terrorist elements pose a threat to you and your families.

If you wish to provide help and assistance to your people in the sector, call the number below to provide us with the needed information.

The future of the massacre is in your hands. Don’t hesitate!

We will be glad to receive any information you have and it is not necessary to give us your personal information.

We will keep it as a secret. Call us at the following number: 02-5839749
Or e-mail us at: [email protected] to provide us with any information on the terrorist factions. Note: To protect your safety we ask you to be secretive when you call us.
Commander: Israeli Defense Forces.

Here's another:



This one translates to:

quote:

To the residents of the northern Gaza Strip:
The terrorist actions originating from your areas are forcing the Israel Defense Forces to respond harshly to those who are subjecting the citizens of the State of Israel to danger.
We call on the Palestinian Authority to shoulder its responsibility to prevent these criminal acts.
We warn you of the danger of remaining in the areas which are being used to launch terrorist actions and we advise you to leave your homes.
We are not responsible for the consequences if you ignore our warning.
Israel Defense Forces


These are not 'helpful warnings' designed to save civilian lives. These are actually part of the psychological war waged against Palestinian civilians. It has been widely reported that threatening phone calls and radio transmissions were also used in this way to strike fear into the hearts of the targeted civilians of Gaza. We've had this conversation before - it's just typical that we need to have it again.

quote:

It should be clear even to a dull-witted person like yourself that it is infinitely better to leave an area than take cover in a bomb shelter.


Wheere do you suggest the people of Gaza go when all of Gaza is under attack? Egypt, maybe? Jordan? The Sea? Is Israel going to keep on terrorising the people of Gaza until they either leave or get killed? Is that the big plan?

quote:

Israel did not carpet bomb Gaza...


Actually it did.




(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 3:02:14 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hertz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

As I have said before Israel contacted a great number of civilians in Gaza before bombing raids which is surely the best way of getting people out of trouble in the conflict. By doing this Israel actually gave Hamas an advantage by having prior warning so in fact that a raid in a given area was coming. This Israel put the interests of the civilians above their military objectives.


Magical misdirection. During the attack on Gaza, Israel littered the whole area with leaflets seeking information and threatening to kill anyone with any connection to Hamas. Here's what these leaflets look like:


This translates to:
quote:

Dear people of the Gaza Strip, Bear the responsibility for your fate!

The Projectile launchers and the terrorist elements pose a threat to you and your families.

If you wish to provide help and assistance to your people in the sector, call the number below to provide us with the needed information.

The future of the massacre is in your hands. Don’t hesitate!

We will be glad to receive any information you have and it is not necessary to give us your personal information.

We will keep it as a secret. Call us at the following number: 02-5839749
Or e-mail us at: [email protected] to provide us with any information on the terrorist factions. Note: To protect your safety we ask you to be secretive when you call us.
Commander: Israeli Defense Forces.



So bloody what - they asked Gazan's to help them with information - next you will be saying that is a war crime.

quote:


Here's another:
This one translates to:
quote:

To the residents of the northern Gaza Strip:
The terrorist actions originating from your areas are forcing the Israel Defense Forces to respond harshly to those who are subjecting the citizens of the State of Israel to danger.
We call on the Palestinian Authority to shoulder its responsibility to prevent these criminal acts.
We warn you of the danger of remaining in the areas which are being used to launch terrorist actions and we advise you to leave your homes.
We are not responsible for the consequences if you ignore our warning.
Israel Defense Forces


These are not 'helpful warnings' designed to save civilian lives. These are actually part of the psychological war waged against Palestinian civilians. It has been widely reported that threatening phone calls and radio transmissions were also used in this way to strike fear into the hearts of the targeted civilians of Gaza. We've had this conversation before - it's just typical that we need to have it again.

Oh I see so you would have preferred if they didn't drop the leaflets as they were another aspect of their war or Gaza? That is really a joke. I wnder what would be more scary: a leaflet or a bomb on your roof? Answers on a postcard to PO Box 666, Hertzville. Pro-Palestinians are like alchemists - they turn anything good that Israel does into the bad. The funny thing is that I believe people like yourself would have preferred Israel not to give prior warnings because with more civilian casualties, you would have even more reason to scream condemnation and talk about holocausts

I don't recall any conversation on here about this particular subject - it is actually people like yourself who force arguments to be repeated again again and again because perople like you Tweakabelle and Anerin would sooner die than accept anything about Israel that shows anything other than a malign intent.

quote:


quote:

It should be clear even to a dull-witted person like yourself that it is infinitely better to leave an area than take cover in a bomb shelter.

Wheere do you suggest the people of Gaza go when all of Gaza is under attack? Egypt, maybe? Jordan? The Sea? Is Israel going to keep on terrorising the people of Gaza until they either leave or get killed? Is that the big plan?

This is another absurdity. Gaza is a small region but it is not a tiny little cubbyhole. If the IDF post leaflets in one area the civilian population (and Hamas presumably) will move to another locale. BTW stop posting up oversize pictures from questionable sources. You and Anerin have been doing a lot of copy and paste jobs - if you must post on here at least make the effort to wrote all or most of the text yourself.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 3:38:31 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
O leader of the assembly,  I see you have resorted to personal attack again, with that I deduce you have lost your argument for you cannot bring facts to the table for others of this world to see and judge for themselves. You have failed miserably in whatever action you thought was the right ( wing ?) way, for I am not the only one that thinks you are full of hate and shit.

Anerin I have answered every single one of your accusations to the best of my ability so how you would conceive that I have somehow lost the argument is absurd, when by contrast you have ignored a lot of the points in my recent posts. You say I resorted to personal attack again. Well yes and no - what I did was remind you what you stated on a previous thread which was pretty ugly – you asserted it was the fault of the Jews themselves for their oppression. That is a sick twisted thing to say – it is not dissimilar to the common excuse of the wife beater saying she makes him do it. You are just using that as a pretext to pretend I lost the argument. It is pretty comical that you complain about personal attacks when you have resorted to name calling yourself and even here say I am full of hate etc. TBH if I am “full of hate” for anybody it would be for people like yourself who come on here with your poison.

quote:


From this thread and others before it I have changed my stance from what education I received before which was I admit general to what I have found out for myself, I have been educated and now understand yes, there is a problem, but as I suspected and said earlier, it is not all of the Israelis, that then based upon my belief in the basic good of the common man, but later finding out about non profit making non partisan Israeli organisations within Israel, academics and other professional people who do not support the actions of a government that says it speaks for all.

And no, it was not an attempt at sarcasm, for I do believe the United Nations would do well to physically involve themselves in Gaza for the sake of all right thinking people world wide.

Anerin, Gisha and other organisations say they are “non-partisan” but they are not. They are part of a trend of demonisation. Why else would academics support students that are a big part of a movement that wants Israel to quite literally be destroyed. Many of the people you claim to like in Israel seek the destruction of the state whilst feeding like leeches of the money of the Israeli state. Lovely folks indeed. My reference to sarcasm was not to do with your point about the UN – it was to do with my observation that there are many people in Israel that attack the state, to which you responded cheerily.

quote:


N.B. Right thinking and right action as in the right thing to do for all people, not right wing as serves a few with undoubtable racist tendancies.

I am not right wing. I do not support either left or right wing ideologies as I find that they are either corrupt or are based on assumptions and conceptions of humanity that are quite literally false.

quote:


Wise words attributed to a wise man,  and with your education I don't have to tell you from where that originates, but you could always Google it I suppose if you find your education lacking in anything other than bile,hatred and lies.

And with that O leader of the assembly, I bid you farewell, for I have now found it is necessary for me to exercise a function of this website for the first time in five years, that of consigning you to that lonely place in my ignore bin, as I have truly lost patience with you.

I will ask you what lies I have said. I cited many facts which you could have taken issue with – not of may assertions have been shown to be incorrect as far as I know.

I can assure you it is not a lonely place – it is a very happy place PMSL. I’m glad I don’t have to put up with more of your replies to my posts which truth be told are 90% nonsense.

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 3:57:03 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Oddly enough, no one to date has questioned Israel's choice of tactics. Israel is not obliged to use artillery and rockets when it attacks civilian areas like Gaza. Israel has a functional military armed to the teeth with the latest and greatest in killing technology. It has every military and anti-terrorist option at its disposal.

So using rockets and artillery is NOT necessary in Gaza or the West Bank. There are other ways to achieve on-the-ground domination of an urban area. Using rockets and artillery virtually guarantees there will be civilian deaths and injuries in an unban environment.

AFAIK, in c25 years of intense guerilla warfare in Ulster, the British Army (not saints by any stretch of the imagination) never used artillery, rocket fire or aerial bombing. Not once AFAIK. Ulster is now at peace, by and large, and has been so for over a decade. Coincidence?

Whatever its targeting practices, Israel (just like Hamas) deliberately chooses weaponry and tactics that it knows will inevitably result in civilian deaths when there are many other options available.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/1/2010 4:04:43 PM >

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 5:12:55 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin


So what are these people that desire death, destruction or exile of another ethnicity, racist is one description, but what else is at work here ?




In my view, Israel's aggressive expansionism is a major factor.

The Israeli Right, for example, openly and flagrantly insists on Israel's 'right' to the West Bank, which it calls 'Judea' and 'Samaria'. The colonisers (aka 'settlers') also insist on incorporating the West Bank into Israel. They justify this by citing a "promise" or "contract" with their God that they are entitled to the West Bank, citing the Bible/Torah.

Recently we watched yet another round of the peace process flounder. The cause of the failure was clear: Leaving aside the question of whether the colonies/settlements, which are illegal according to international law and almost universally condemned, are a war crime or not, Palestinians insisted that Israel cease building in the colonies/settlements, or they would leave the talks. Israel, despite being offered a massive bribe by Obama, is not even considering a total cessation of construction in the West Bank.

Put simply, Israel could choose peace talks or expanding the colonies/settlements.

Israel's failure to choose peace says it all. Actions speak much louder than words.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 12/1/2010 5:31:41 PM >

(in reply to Aneirin)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 6:54:11 PM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Oddly enough, no one to date has questioned Israel's choice of tactics. Israel is not obliged to use artillery and rockets when it attacks civilian areas like Gaza. Israel has a functional military armed to the teeth with the latest and greatest in killing technology. It has every military and anti-terrorist option at its disposal.

So using rockets and artillery is NOT necessary in Gaza or the West Bank. There are other ways to achieve on-the-ground domination of an urban area. Using rockets and artillery virtually guarantees there will be civilian deaths and injuries in an unban environment.

AFAIK, in c25 years of intense guerilla warfare in Ulster, the British Army (not saints by any stretch of the imagination) never used artillery, rocket fire or aerial bombing. Not once AFAIK. Ulster is now at peace, by and large, and has been so for over a decade. Coincidence?

Whatever its targeting practices, Israel (just like Hamas) deliberately chooses weaponry and tactics that it knows will inevitably result in civilian deaths when there are many other options available.


Tweakabelle, I probably sound like a broken record at this stage but I don't understand why you are raising this issue again in light of the point that Israel's choice of tactics has led to the lowest civilian to combatant death toll in the whole wide world. This difference isn't marginal BTW. As others like NJ20 have pointed out, Israel is way out in front in terms of minimising civilian casualties. You could say Israel should do better but then the question arises: "better than what?" I'm not a military tactician or a munitions expert so I don't see how Israel could do better other than maybe resort to slingshots and bows and arrows. If they don't use powerful weaponry then other issues arise. The point is that the IDF has conflicting needs like any army. It has a responsibility not to excessively endanger their own troops so it can't send them into a hornets nest without preparing the ground first by weakening Hamas' position, especially since Hamas also has heavy armaments. It also has a responsibility to minimise the probable death of civilians especially in high population areas where there is a lot of conflict. Thus if it can get the civilians out of an area first before resorting to the use of heavy weaponry to seriously weaken Hamas then I think that sounds like a sensible compromise. Yes Israel has a lot of advanced technology but I don't think it is necessarily the case that it would be any less lethal for being that.

I have heard comparisons with Northern Ireland on many occasions and they are typically misleading. Firstly the IRA were not like Hamas or even the PLO. The scale of the conflict in the North was by no means as intensive as the conflict that Israel faces. They did actually use artillery in the North. Tanks were a common sight as were armoured cars. Military helicopters (some with rocket capacity AFAIK) were also a common sight in the North. The use of these facilities was not nearly as intensive but neither was the conflict. The only fire from the South was the occasional mortar fired from Joe O'Blogs' field near the border. I know a few IRA lads. They're not at all religious in contrast to Palestinian fundamentalism.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 12/1/2010 6:57:58 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 11:25:26 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras



I have heard comparisons with Northern Ireland on many occasions and they are typically misleading. Firstly the IRA were not like Hamas or even the PLO. The scale of the conflict in the North was by no means as intensive as the conflict that Israel faces. They did actually use artillery in the North. Tanks were a common sight as were armoured cars. Military helicopters (some with rocket capacity AFAIK) were also a common sight in the North. The use of these facilities was not nearly as intensive but neither was the conflict. The only fire from the South was the occasional mortar fired from Joe O'Blogs' field near the border. I know a few IRA lads. They're not at all religious in contrast to Palestinian fundamentalism.




Yes there's definitely some misleading going on here. Let's take a close look and see exactly who is misleading ......

"Firstly the IRA were not like Hamas or even the PLO."
Here are 8 major similarities between the Palestinian resistance and the IRA, off the top of my head:
1. Both seek national unity/independence
2. Both fight what they see as foreign occupation
3. Both wage guerilla war or, if you prefer 'terrorism'.
4. Both have substantial support bases in an oppressed population who regard them as 'freedom fighters'.
5. Both fight within an occupied zone, in the occupier's homeland and internationally
6. Both operate in urban and rural environments within tiny geographical parameters.
7. Both are receive significant measures of support, both political financial and logistic, externally from (a) Diaspora members and (b) share in large measure the same international support from political and other organisations and other sympathisers.
8. Both are confronting major regional military powers.
There are many many more points of similarity but that's surely enough to make legitimate comparisons. Your claim is misleading and/or false.

"The scale of the conflict in the North was by no means as intensive as the conflict that Israel faces."
The scale of conflict in Northern Ireland can be compared to the Middle East, especially for the period 1969-75. Up to 18, 000 British troops were deployed to support the civil authority in an area not much larger than that of Greater Sydney. Again comparisons are legitimate.

"They did actually use artillery in the North."
Really?????? I've never heard of this. AFAIK it never happened. Evidence to support your claim please. I'd prefer not to be forced to conclude that this is an outright lie. I re-state: AFAIK the British Army did not fire an artillery shell in anger for the duration of the conflict in Nthn Ireland.


"Tanks were a common sight as were armoured cars."
A common sight perhaps, but were they ever used like Israeli tanks? Is there a single instance of a British tank firing an artillery shell through its turret for the duration of the conflict? Not as far as I know. Same goes for armoured cars. A half-truth at best.

"Military helicopters (some with rocket capacity AFAIK) were also a common sight in the North."
Same as above - seen but never used as firing platforms AFAIK. Logistic and surveillance roles only. Air-to-ground missiles were never used. Another half-truth at best.

"The use of these facilities was not nearly as intensive but neither was the conflict."
Correct. Logistic and surveillance roles are not as intensive as offensive warfare roles are they? But that is not what you meant to convey is it? The 'facilities" were never used offensively in the Israeli style were they? More misleading.

"The only fire from the South was the occasional mortar fired from Joe O'Blogs' field near the border."
There were hundreds of cross border incidents during the conflict. The worst was the Warrenpoint ambush, 27 Aug 1979 in which 18 British Army soldiers perished.* Outright lie, you must be familiar with this incident.

"I know a few IRA lads. They're not at all religious in contrast to Palestinian fundamentalism."
I know a few IRA lads too. Family connections. Some are very religious. Some aren't. The Palestinian resistance is largely, but far from exclusively Islamic now, but that hasn't been the case always, especially in the PLO/Fatah days. Misleading.

Anyone reader of this bulletin board unfamiliar with the details of Ulster would gain a totally false and misleading impression from your series of half-truths, lies and elisions.

Why the half-truths? Why the lies? Why the distortions? Why the deceit? Why do you find it impossible to deal with the issues honestly?




*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrenpoint_ambush

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/1/2010 11:33:21 PM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		Actually the Goal of the PLO in the Past and Hamas now is the DESTRUCTION of Israel.

IRA never has had the goal of the Destruction of the UK.

Foriegn armies never came in at the request of the IRA occupying the area for decades while not creating a state. The did for the Palestinians.

So different Goals, different levels of Conflict.



The IRA and the Palestinain leadership are similar in their disregard for and exploitation of their own citizens. Arafat's Children are billionaires (who keep thier billions in Europeon banks).

_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/2/2010 1:41:46 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras



So bloody what - they asked Gazan's to help them with information - next you will be saying that is a war crime.


You claimed the IDF warned Palestinian civilians before they reduced their homes to rubble, in order to reduce civilian casualties. That was incorrect. They did no such thing. That's bloody what.

quote:


Oh I see so you would have preferred if they didn't drop the leaflets as they were another aspect of their war or Gaza? That is really a joke. I wnder what would be more scary: a leaflet or a bomb on your roof? Answers on a postcard to PO Box 666, Hertzville. Pro-Palestinians are like alchemists - they turn anything good that Israel does into the bad. The funny thing is that I believe people like yourself would have preferred Israel not to give prior warnings because with more civilian casualties, you would have even more reason to scream condemnation and talk about holocausts


We are talking about psychological warfare on a civilian population. You claimed the nice Israeli military warned residents of Gaza that their homes were about to be bombed in order to reduce civilian casualties. You are wrong. They did no such thing. These ae not warnings. They are threats, deployed specifically to cause fear and anguish.

quote:

I don't recall any conversation on here about this particular subject - it is actually people like yourself who force arguments to be repeated again again and again because perople like you Tweakabelle and Anerin would sooner die than accept anything about Israel that shows anything other than a malign intent.


Of course. It's almost as if fair criticism of Israel does not exist. I mean, how could it? Israel never puts a foot wrong.

quote:


This is another absurdity. Gaza is a small region but it is not a tiny little cubbyhole. If the IDF post leaflets in one area the civilian population (and Hamas presumably) will move to another locale.


Where, exactly? Given that the leaflets were being dropped over huge areas of Gaza and not in specific places as you incorrectly claim, where could they go? Where could they go when sometimes the leaflet drops and phone calls were followed by attacks, and at other times they were not?


quote:

BTW stop posting up oversize pictures from questionable sources. You and Anerin have been doing a lot of copy and paste jobs - if you must post on here at least make the effort to wrote all or most of the text yourself.


Did someone make you a Mod when I wasn't looking?

The point is, and this is why you would prefer no-one gave sources and quotes to back up arguments, the idea of a discussion forum is to discuss actual, real events, backed up with actual, real evidence. I know you'd prefer to live in a land where everything you say is true just because you say it, but that wouldn't be the real world. In the real world, Israel is guilty of war crimes, and there is plenty of evidence out there to back that claim up. I'm not going to post opinion so you can just deny it. If you don't like what I am saying, tough.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/2/2010 1:44:33 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Oddly enough, no one to date has questioned Israel's choice of tactics. Israel is not obliged to use artillery and rockets when it attacks civilian areas like Gaza. Israel has a functional military armed to the teeth with the latest and greatest in killing technology. It has every military and anti-terrorist option at its disposal.

So using rockets and artillery is NOT necessary in Gaza or the West Bank. There are other ways to achieve on-the-ground domination of an urban area. Using rockets and artillery virtually guarantees there will be civilian deaths and injuries in an unban environment.

AFAIK, in c25 years of intense guerilla warfare in Ulster, the British Army (not saints by any stretch of the imagination) never used artillery, rocket fire or aerial bombing. Not once AFAIK. Ulster is now at peace, by and large, and has been so for over a decade. Coincidence?

Whatever its targeting practices, Israel (just like Hamas) deliberately chooses weaponry and tactics that it knows will inevitably result in civilian deaths when there are many other options available.


This.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/2/2010 1:56:08 AM   
hertz


Posts: 1315
Joined: 8/7/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg

Actually the Goal of the PLO in the Past and Hamas now is the DESTRUCTION of Israel.



Have you ever read the Hamas Charter? It might be worth your while doing so.

http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html

Hamas is a liberation movement whose stated aim is to free Palestine from the Zionist occupation. If Israel did not occupy Palestine, Hamas would have no interest in its destruction. This distinction is probably too subtle for you.

(in reply to luckydawg)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Propaganda and Israel - 12/2/2010 2:10:09 AM   
luckydawg


Posts: 2448
Joined: 9/2/2009
Status: offline 		hmm you post a dead link.

heres one that works

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas_Charter


Quotes the Protocolls of the elders of Zion. One of the most anti Semetic works of prose ever created. and calls for the destruction of Isreal.

what is the distinction? It has nothing to do with gaza or west bank. It calls for the Destruction of Isreal. every inch of it. So do you

and it calls for an Islamic state.

I am missing the distinction. care to explain why you and hamas support the destruction of Israel and the creation of Islamic State ruled by violence, and Anti Semetism. You can't cite the Protocolls of the Elders of Zion as factuall without being an Anti Semite. You simply can't.






_____________________________

I was posting as Right Wing Hippie, but that account got messed up.

(in reply to hertz)
Profile   Post #: 80
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