Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

a question for Christians


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> a question for Christians Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 1:01:42 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		It is said that God forgives his followers for their sins because Jesus died on the cross. All we have to do is believe and ask for forgiveness. Christians are also expected to forgive those who hurt them. What about those who apologize not out of remorse or regret, but for selfish reasons (they want something from you)? What about Sociopaths and Narcissists who have no conscience, feel no remorse, and non-consentually hurt others simply because they get pleasure from it? Could telling such individuals you forgive them be seen as consenting to future abuse (not accepting your own responsibility to protect yourself), even from a Christian perspective? Christians are told to forgive their enemies, yet Matthew 7:6 says "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and then turn and tear you to pieces." What if a Christian views forgiveness as valuable, like a pearl? As a Christian, do you feel like you're required to forgive everyone, including Sociopaths and Narcissists who have no conscience and feel no remorse? Do you think God forgives those without conscience or remorse and allows them to enter heaven knowing the danger of them turning and tearing His followers to pieces in heaven?



_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 1:10:05 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		All i will say in response.. and this is in no way taking away from your question or supporting religion itself... is that the bible also says that people should answer to the courts for their crimes. a christian can forgive all day long... the bible does not speak about forgetting though.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 1:10:18 PM   
FatDomDaddy


Posts: 3183
Joined: 1/31/2004
Status: offline 		Forgiveness has nothing to do with the other persons motives, it has to do with one's own.

If someone is insincere so what?  Even if they keep doing something...again... it's not their sincerity, that demands forgiveness, its one's own.

You don't have to be their best friend.  

Now, Forgiveness and Justice are two different things. You can be forgiving while pursuing justice or even self defense.

< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 12/2/2010 1:11:44 PM >

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 1:15:51 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		If you are a Catholic then you just go to confession and tell the priest about how you molested one of your neighbor's sheep.

He'll tell you to say ten Our Fathers and five Hail Marys and absolve you of all your sins.

And no, my neighbor doesn't have any sheep, before anyone asks.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 1:40:11 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I often wonder if God is offended by people confessing their sins to a priest instead of to Him directly. I've never been a fan of chain of command.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 1:44:59 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I often wonder if God is offended by people confessing their sins to a priest instead of to Him directly. I've never been a fan of chain of command.


Well, I've wondered about God to begin with, but that's for another discussion.

The idea is that the priest is consecrated to be the direct link to God.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 2:04:41 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

All i will say in response.. and this is in no way taking away from your question or supporting religion itself... is that the bible also says that people should answer to the courts for their crimes. a christian can forgive all day long... the bible does not speak about forgetting though.


Psychopaths who commit crimes can and often do answer to the courts. What about Sociopaths and Narcissists who often feed their egos by inflicting non-consentual abuse that isn't punishable by law?


< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 12/2/2010 2:06:01 PM >

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 2:42:56 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Priests, you mean?

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 3:17:59 PM   
allthatjaz


Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline
Trial by water. If they come up gasping for air then they are guilty and should be burnt as witches but if they perish then they were genuinely good Christians.

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos


Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 3:45:29 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

Christians are told to forgive their enemies...

Not to claim Christianity as my religion, it is still wise advice...

A longitudinal study showed that people who were generally more neurotic, angry and hostile in life were less likely to forgive another person even after a long time had passed. Specifically, these people were more likely to still avoid their transgressor and want to enact revenge upon them four and a half years after the transgression.

Studies show that people who forgive are happier and healthier than those who hold resentments. The first study to look at how forgiveness improves physical health discovered that when people think about forgiving an offender it leads to improved functioning in their cardiovascular and nervous systems. Another study at the University of Wisconsin found the more forgiving people were, the less they suffered from a wide range of illnesses. The less forgiving people reported a greater number of health problems.

So, you should always forgive a miscreant before you shoot him.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/2/2010 3:47:58 PM >

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 3:46:20 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Priests, you mean?


If the priest or minister is a Psychopath, Sociopath, or Narcissist then yes.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 3:49:20 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I AM NOT RELIGIOUS AT ALL !

But I did shout that to get it across before I proceed.

I forgive. It is my discretion to do so, and I only do so when appropriate, and that is totally up to me. I think that is a different concept.

But remains the psychological aspect. When you forgive, it releases YOU, not the recipient. In that I see wisdom. Somebody tries some bad shit and you have to kill them, when you bury them, bury your hate, if any.

You can call it a soul, you can call it a psyche, you can call it Karma. Whatever it is, grudges are worse for the one who holds the judge. If I forgive, must I accept the recipient to the same degree as before he wronged me ? Like let a thief around my valuables again ? I say no.

Forgivness is for the forgiver, not the forgivee.

T

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 3:56:05 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Going to be a pita instead of editing, forgive me.

Change the last "E" in that post to an "N".

Thank you.

T

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 4:05:39 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline 		I'm not a Christian, but as a pastoral care counselor, I often discuss the act of forgiveness with clients. From the perspective that I use forgiveness, it is done NOT for the other individual, but for my client. It provides my client a framework from which to let go of the anger, fear, hatred, and self-doubt that can come from being on the receiving end of offensive, cruel, or demeaning behaviors when such are done non-consensually. In particular, it is beneficial, I've found, for individuals who are having trouble letting go of their anger to be able to move on.

The thing about forgiveness is that it doesn't have to mean that you have to continue to associate with the individual in question. In fact, in most cases I -strongly- recommend that association with the individual who inflicted the behavior in question be terminated... or as close to it as my client can manage. Just because we've let go of someone's ill-considered and hurtful actions does NOT mean that we have to allow them the opportunity to repeat the behavior.

My understanding of the rules of Christianity (from someone who was raised in it, but always felt like I was standing outside the door watching other people go through motions that I just didn't grasp) is that the act of forgiveness is an -opportunity-. For Christians, God's mercy is  supposedly limitless -- however, if one continues in the same behaviors, the chance of one's life ending while one still bears the stain of -some- incident that one has forgotten to ask forgiveness for seems pretty high to me... so if the Christian God exists and is everything that xhe's purported to be, then it seems to me that xhe'd know whether someone was -genuinely- asking forgiveness or just mouthing the words.

The other thing that is important regarding this question, I think, is that 'forgiveness' from one human being to another is part of that process that says "Judge not, lest ye be judged"... It makes sense for us to forgive, because, from the Christian perspective, we can't really see what is in the other person's soul, so we can't know whether they sincerely asked God for forgiveness or not... I mean, there is a relevant scripture... Matthew 18:21-22 (NLT)
21Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someonei who sins against me? Seven times?” 22“No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!j



_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 4:10:28 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3651
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I often wonder if God is offended by people confessing their sins to a priest instead of to Him directly. I've never been a fan of chain of command.


First, I want to preface this by saying that I was raised in Christianity, but am now a non-deist... so my perspective may be a little... skewed.

With that in mind, I don't think that if there is a God, xhe cares whether we confess our sins directly to hir, or confess them to our neighbors (including priests) as long as we're sincere about the confession. It seems to me that, if God knows everything, xhe already knows that we repent, and it wouldn't really matter whether we whispered it in our bed or shouted it from a mountain. On the other hand, if we repent publically (including to a priest), that exposes our sin to the community -- which is a point of extreme vulnerability. Having been raised as a Catholic for my first 15 years, I can tell you that the priests -absolutely- know, most of the time, who the person is on the other side of that screen in the confessional. Most of them know their congregations pretty well, so there isn't as much anonymity in the confessional as it might seem like there is.

Calla


_____________________________

***
Said to me recently: "Look, I know you're the "voice of reason"... but dammit, I LIKE being unreasonable!!!!"

"Your mind is more interested in the challenge of becoming than the challenge of doing." Jon Benson, Bodybuilder/Trainer

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 4:28:48 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I thank everyone for their opinions and had a good laugh over the humorous responses. Now I will state mine.

In my opinion, you should never tell a Narcissist or Sociopath you forgive them because:

1. They have no conscience and are incapable of feeling remorse, so it's impossible for their apologies to be genuine.

2. They only apologize because they want something in addition to forgiveness. When they don't get what they want, they will trample the pearl (your forgiveness), then find a way to tear you apart.

3. Since they often hurt their non-consentual victims in ways that either aren't illegal or are difficult to prove, taking them to court may not be an option. Obtaining forgiveness and not facing consequences for their actions only encourages their destructive behavior.

4. Past victims should accept the responsibility of protecting themselves and not enable the behavior of those without remorse or conscience. Psychopaths, Sociopaths, and Narcissists are the most evil people in existence. These are the animals Matthew 7:6 refers to.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 4:46:03 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		You mentioned Narcissists in 3 separate posts so I am sharing this which actually works with the narcissists in my life. (I spent 5 years wondering why Conscious Communication was ineffective with my narc.)

FIVE DON'T DO'S
How to Avoid the Wrath of the Narcissist

1. Never disagree with the narcissist or contradict him;
2. Never offer him any intimacy;
3. Look awed by whatever attribute matters to him (for instance: by his professional achievements or by his good looks, or by his success with women and so on);
4. Never remind him of life out there and if you do, connect it somehow to his sense of grandiosity;
5. Do not make any comment, which might directly or indirectly impinge on his self-image, omnipotence, judgment, omniscience, skills, capabilities, professional record, or even omnipresence. Bad sentences start with: "I think you overlooked ... made a mistake here ... you don't know ... do you know ... you were not here yesterday so ... you cannot ... you should ... (perceived as rude imposition, narcissists react very badly to restrictions placed on their freedom) ... I (never mention the fact that you are a separate, independent entity, narcissists regard others as extensions of their selves, their internalization processes were screwed up and they did not differentiate properly) ..." You get the gist of it.

The TEN DO'S
How to Make your Narcissist Dependent on You
If you INSIST on Staying with Him
http://samvak.tripod.com/abusefamily19.html

For the record, neither the writer nor I are recommending close ties with narcissists but sometimes one can't simply cut them off.


< Message edited by kalikshama -- 12/2/2010 4:47:03 PM >

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 5:01:36 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

What about Sociopaths and Narcissists who have no conscience, feel no remorse, and non-consentually hurt others simply because they get pleasure from it? Could telling such individuals you forgive them be seen as consenting to future abuse (not accepting your own responsibility to protect yourself), even from a Christian perspective?


Telling a narcissist you forgive them is pointless (see my previous post). But telling them is not necessary for you to accomplish forgiveness. In fact, I have never told anyone who grievously sinned against me that I forgave them. Hell will freeze over before you get an apology and the potential for getting re-injured is vast.

This Buddhist Loving Kindness meditation is what helps me forgive and brings me peace:

May I be filled with loving kindness
May I be well
May I be peaceful and at ease
May I be happy

May you be filled with loving kindness
May you be well
May you be peaceful and at ease
May you be happy

May all beings be filled with loving kindness
May all beings be well
May all beings be peaceful and at ease
May all beings be happy

*************

You may wish to practice the You in this progression:
people you love
people you like
people you are neutral towards
people you wish to forgive

I have had amazing results with this. Best of luck to you.

KK

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 6:04:03 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

For the record, neither the writer nor I are recommending close ties with narcissists but sometimes one can't simply cut them off.



Unfortunately, some think they can refuse to be cut off. I dared to disagree with him when he said I wasn't on his level and he was above me. I refused to forgive him for his past cruelty. I refused to give him $150 like a "good friend" would. He thinks all the overweight women he knows were put on this earth to give him money. Favorite quotes of his include "I am the best." "I'm the mutha fukin boss. Everybody's boss." "I'm the king." "Call me God." He said I would suffer the consequences for daring to treat him that way and reminded me that he knows where I live, the car I drive, and where I work. Then he accurately named my new boss and said they are friends. No third party overheard my last conversation with him. If he vandalizes my car, there's no way to prove it unless someone actually sees him do it. If he gets his revenge through my new boss, so be it. I take responsibility for protecting myself, I refuse to forgive him, and I refuse to allow him to victimize me.


< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 12/2/2010 6:05:58 PM >

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: a question for Christians - 12/2/2010 6:09:57 PM   
servantforuse


Posts: 6363
Joined: 3/8/2006
Status: offline 		You keep mentioning narcissists.. Are you thinking about Obama by chance ? I am a christian and I do forgive him. He knows not what he does.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 20
Page:   [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> a question for Christians Page: [1] 2 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109