RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic

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Moonhead -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:21:27 PM)
You're not the only one who's worked for the NHS, effendi: do you have any idea how difficult it is for a hospital trust to get of beauracrats once they've been given an employment contract?

LadyConstanze -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:22:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Fair enough, but aren't most of those problems arising from the fact that there's more middle management than medical staff in the NHS at the moment? Getting rid of most of them would save a lot of money, and give the medical staff a bit more autonomy. The falling standard of younger doctors coming into the NHS, sadly, is more of a problem. From my understanding the admin staff is causing most of the costs, but cutting that down is difficult without upsetting the apple cart completely, the way I see it as an outsider who experienced a few other health systems is, that it is far too centralized, different parts of the country have different needs, parcel it off more and let them decide locally what they need (as it works in Germany and France) instead of trying to spread it the same way. I would assume that you Scots with your fried marsbars will need a lot more stents and heart dillertations than people around Alderly Edge who spend most of their time in gyms, getting fake nails, spray tans and boob jobs...

Moonhead -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:26:54 PM)
I'm from Stoke, not Scotland. (In fact, I'm a lot closer to Alderley Edge than Glasgow...) More autonomy and less centralisation would be a big help, but you're never going to get anybody in Parliament (or the civil service, come to that) promoting that one, sadly.

Phoenixpower -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:29:52 PM)
actually we do pay a bit for it from our wages but newsflash we dont have to pay council tax on top of rent,so if you like it or not with your admired nhs RapierFugue we waste less money into the state and get better health care, so quite frankly i prefer to pay a few pound into great healthcare than eg. £1200/year in council tax. And personally its ok to have to register unemployed to get the service as it ensures more that the people get it who are entitled to, i wouldnt mind if the uk would have the same system,we simply are differently run,which already starts with it that you have to have your ID card with you aged 16+ onwards and that you have to register yourself within a certain time at your council when you move, and some dog breeds are banned. Nothing wrong with it when a state has its rules.

RapierFugue -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:29:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead You're not the only one who's worked for the NHS, effendi: do you have any idea how difficult it is for a hospital trust to get of beauracrats once they've been given an employment contract? I generally work at a higher level than mere Acute Boards, so yes. I know. Seriously; I've played this particular game at almost every level from local to near-governmental and it's really nowhere near as simple as people make out, even many those who have worked within it without understanding how it works. But it's fine, I wasn't having a pop. Like I said, I'm getting out while the going's crap - i.e. before it turns utterly shite [;)] I have that option, because I can work both sides of the fence; NHS and Commercial. Others aren't going to be so lucky.

RapierFugue -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:34:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower actually we do pay a bit for it from our wages but newsflash we dont have to pay council tax on top of rent,so if you like it or not with your admired nhs RapierFugue we waste less money into the state and get better health care The independent figures don't support your assertion. Hint: look at percentage of GDP vs. population, including taking into account baseline fitness and then breadth of treatments offered. Ok, enough now. Say whatever you want - I've corrected the last inaccuracy on this topic I want to, coz it's always the same; can't move for armchair experts [;)]

LadyConstanze -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:36:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I'm from Stoke, not Scotland. (In fact, I'm a lot closer to Alderley Edge than Glasgow...) More autonomy and less centralisation would be a big help, but you're never going to get anybody in Parliament (or the civil service, come to that) promoting that one, sadly. Ooops sorry, for some odd reason I thought you're Glaswegian...Bet you're not as close to WAG central as I am, though I am mortally offended that LinkedIn is so screwed up that it claims I'm in Stockport <insert hissy fit> I think more autonomy would be a good step forward, especially in cutting costs and being more effective but like you, I can't see that happening. As I said, I got a private health insurance from Germany, they'd pay for a private GP and specialists, but I still got to go through the NHS crap and they don't understand they can bill me, if they understand they can only give me a bill for "treatment" which is not enough for my insurance, oddly enough they want to know WHAT was treated... Tell ya, cheaper to catch a flight and get a real doctor, and yes I am fucking annoyed if those jokers call me by my first name and insist they are called Dr. - Dr. is an academic title that most countries award you for doing a thesis and defending your thesis in front of experts, apparently in the UK and the US MDs don't have to do that...

LadyConstanze -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:39:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead You're not the only one who's worked for the NHS, effendi: do you have any idea how difficult it is for a hospital trust to get of beauracrats once they've been given an employment contract? I generally work at a higher level than mere Acute Boards, so yes. I know. Seriously; I've played this particular game at almost every level from local to near-governmental and it's really nowhere near as simple as people make out, even many those who have worked within it without understanding how it works. But it's fine, I wasn't having a pop. Like I said, I'm getting out while the going's crap - i.e. before it turns utterly shite [;)] I have that option, because I can work both sides of the fence; NHS and Commercial. Others aren't going to be so lucky. Correction, from anybody who ever experienced anything else than 3rd world countries and the US, the NHS IS utterly shite, so I am really curious as to how it can turn more shite, I mean will it be green shite?

Moonhead -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 3:45:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RapierFugue quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead You're not the only one who's worked for the NHS, effendi: do you have any idea how difficult it is for a hospital trust to get of beauracrats once they've been given an employment contract? I generally work at a higher level than mere Acute Boards, so yes. I know. Seriously; I've played this particular game at almost every level from local to near-governmental and it's really nowhere near as simple as people make out, even many those who have worked within it without understanding how it works. But it's fine, I wasn't having a pop. Like I said, I'm getting out while the going's crap - i.e. before it turns utterly shite [;)] I have that option, because I can work both sides of the fence; NHS and Commercial. Others aren't going to be so lucky. Fair enough.

Politesub53 -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 5:34:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower actually we do pay a bit for it from our wages but newsflash we dont have to pay council tax on top of rent,so if you like it or not with your admired nhs RapierFugue we waste less money into the state and get better health care, so quite frankly i prefer to pay a few pound into great healthcare than eg. £1200/year in council tax. Rent and Council Tax are two different things. Rent goes to the landlord, Council Tax goes to pay for certain services the council provide, non of which have anything to do with health services.

LadyConstanze -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 6:03:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower actually we do pay a bit for it from our wages but newsflash we dont have to pay council tax on top of rent,so if you like it or not with your admired nhs RapierFugue we waste less money into the state and get better health care, so quite frankly i prefer to pay a few pound into great healthcare than eg. £1200/year in council tax. Rent and Council Tax are two different things. Rent goes to the landlord, Council Tax goes to pay for certain services the council provide, non of which have anything to do with health services. True, but don't they always raise the tax for alcohol and tobacco on account of the health risk they are and yet the tac money raised through that doesn't go into the NHS fund... Hold on, you are taxing my glass of wine as a health risk and because I am having that glass of wine I pay tax through the nose, I'm down with that, but please, then I want it to go towards the costs that the hospital stay that my glass of wine or my Cohiba will cause, I'm paying for it so why is the only service I get a waiting list a mile long and barely educated doctors? During lunch after a meeting the other day, a guy showed some figures, and if people would stop smoking and drinking in this country, the whole system that lives of the taxation of both would tumble, yet they still maintain that they only raise the taxes to protect us from ourselves. Hardly any country in Europe has such high taxes on tobacco and alcohol, but also most countries have a better functioning public health care, less waiting times, etc. Oh but they might not have as many politicians who try to claim the cleaning of the moat around their mansion as an expense the tax payer should cover and when caught say "Ooops, I pay it back" - in any company they'd be sacked and sued, I believe one would call that fraud...

pahunkboy -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/15/2010 6:29:30 PM)
AFTER TRIPLING TUITIONS, UK MAY BAN STUDENT MARCHES

Politesub53 -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 10:58:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy AFTER TRIPLING TUITIONS, UK MAY BAN STUDENT MARCHES Utter nonsense once again from one of your nut job web sites. Sir Paul Stephenson, head of the Metropolitan Police, was asked if he had considered a ban. He replied it was an option.

pahunkboy -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 11:08:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy AFTER TRIPLING TUITIONS, UK MAY BAN STUDENT MARCHES Utter nonsense once again from one of your nut job web sites. Sir Paul Stephenson, head of the Metropolitan Police, was asked if he had considered a ban. He replied it was an option. Hello Martial law. \\ aint that some happy shtt?

LadyConstanze -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 11:32:01 AM)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12007506 Doesn't look like martial law to me, but I still wonder why people are allowed to mask their faces, if you are protesting against something why would you want to hide your face unless you are planning actions that are illegal/violent. Not 100% sure on this, but I think the UK is the only country in the EU where you are allowed to have your face covered, most other countries they can nab you for making yourself unidentifiable.

RapierFugue -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 11:54:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pahunkboy Hello Martial law. It is not martial law.

RapierFugue -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 11:58:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12007506 Doesn't look like martial law to me, but I still wonder why people are allowed to mask their faces, if you are protesting against something why would you want to hide your face unless you are planning actions that are illegal/violent. Not 100% sure on this, but I think the UK is the only country in the EU where you are allowed to have your face covered, most other countries they can nab you for making yourself unidentifiable. Technically speaking (and how on earth you'd police this in the middle of a bunch of thugs kicking off against the police I have no idea), you are (in England, Scotland and Wales, but not NI, where different rules apply as a result of the troubles) required to "identify" yourself when so requested by a police officer, if that police officer has reasonable grounds for suspecting you are either in the process of committing a crime (such as midway through slamming a large metal barrier into a copper’s head), or for suspecting you are about to commit one (such as picking up the large metal barrier, or a brick or suchlike). Generally speaking this is taken as meaning that, unless there are good reasons why not (such as you having a clinical condition that requires you to wear an oxygen mask, for example, or for religious reason, such as with some forms of Muslim dress), you will make your face and features clearly known to said policeman if that policeman makes clear his/her reasons for thinking you're up to no good. Other than that (i.e. if you're doing nothing wrong) a copper has no right to ask, demand, or insist that you show them your face. Personally, I don't see why anyone needs to have their face covered; it was very noticeable in the recent punch-up that all the "front row" thugs had their faces covered, whereas almost none of the peaceful protestors did, so the get-out about "covered because of cold weather" would seem to be a red herring; if that were the case then most people that day would have covered their faces.

LadyConstanze -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 12:13:39 PM)
Most European countries practise it in a rather simple way, you cover up your face at a demonstration, they nab you as it is not allowed, you end up in a cell and think about a perfect explanation why you were doing that, think about it the same way just with slightly less consequences as if you are caught with a gun, they lock you up first and ask questions later. Basically the police will assume the moment you are masking yourself at a demonstration you have a reason for it, i.e. you are planning violence and you want to make yourself unidentifiable... The thing you noticed is something they noticed ages ago and decided to put a stop to it. To me it makes perfect sense.

RapierFugue -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 12:22:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze Most European countries practise it in a rather simple way, you cover up your face at a demonstration, they nab you as it is not allowed, you end up in a cell and think about a perfect explanation why you were doing that, think about it the same way just with slightly less consequences as if you are caught with a gun, they lock you up first and ask questions later. Basically the police will assume the moment you are masking yourself at a demonstration you have a reason for it, i.e. you are planning violence and you want to make yourself unidentifiable... The thing you noticed is something they noticed ages ago and decided to put a stop to it. To me it makes perfect sense. And to me. Very logical. The odd thing about the UK in general, and parliament in particular is that, despite us having no "rights" whatsoever under any form of constitution, parliament gets a bit windy when they think something they wish to do might be seen as in any way impinging on what people believe are their rights, even though they have none. It's comical sometimes.

Moonhead -> RE: London Protests Turn Violent With Parliament Under Siege Protesters are now fighting with polic (12/16/2010 12:58:33 PM)
That's the big difference between our legal system and the US one: they have their constitution and bill of rights, and many feel that anything that isn't specifically named as being permitted by one or the other is a privilege not a right, with no reason for anybody who likes the idea (or enjoyed it until it was taken away by the patriot act) to get arsey about it. We take the opposite approach over here (despite the existence of several defacto constitutions, starting with the Magna Carta), and assume that unless something's specifically forbidden by one of our many laws, then it's nobody's business except the people who are doing it, whatever it happens to be.

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