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RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 3:50:12 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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1. Banks

2. Oil

3. Defense contractors

...

247. Citizens


as it stands now.

I think that's the trouble with this country, we've allowed priorities to become skewed. We need to get the country on solid ground again and put oil back up at the top. I was worried about where to fit in the all-important agro-chem/pharma sector, but then remembered that's essentially a subset of oil.



Oh wait, the question was about personal priorities! Sorry, I had just come from a thread about congressional priorities and my mind was still in that.

I can actually understand that some might put "religion" or "me" as #1 because that is a foundation, a basis, etc. from which one proceeds to all else. Having to put a number beside these things automatically presents a conundrum of sorts, but I understand that it's just an exercise.



I already figured out long ago that how we live our lives establishes the de facto priorities, however we might arbitrarily order things in our mind.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 12/11/2010 3:55:40 PM >

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 4:25:05 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I gave you an answer that I think is sufficient to any Christian.
I suggested a book on the subject.
I also said that I thought it would be rare, and extreme, for such conflict to exist.

But a friend of mine for over 40 years pretty much faced it. This woman is probably the most truly committed Christian I have ever known. Her husband is an elder in their church. Born into the kind of wealth that I can only imagine. When her husband wanted to set up his own practice and complained about the rent in a downtown highrise she bought the building. That kind of wealth, but it never defined her. She is the sort of Christian who tells me she envies the commitment and sense of community my AA home group and I share, that she hasn't felt that kind of closeness since her college days with a certain Christian outreach group... she is just unthinkingly kind. It's her default position.
Her daughter converted to Judaism. 
"All those Easter Sundays..." she said to me.
It breaks her heart, anew, to see her grandchildren raised Jewish.
She prays for them, and bites her tongue a lot.
And doesn't see them too much. Her daughter made her choice.


Lovely.

She is "unthinkingly kind" but, if I'm understanding you correctly, she doesn't see her daughter and grandchildren because they converted to Judaism.

How very Christian.



You have automatically assumed it is the christian... it doesn't mean to say that it's the christians choice... it may be her daughters... or it may be the conflict of the two religions and not the people themselves.


Yes, thank you, except you apparently missed the part where I said "if I'm understanding you correctly".

In our American language, which is surprisingly similar to English, that means I was acknowledging that it was unclear whose decision it was and asking him to clarify.

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 4:42:24 PM   
Kirata


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Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

In our American language, which is surprisingly similar to English, that means I was acknowledging that it was unclear whose decision it was and asking him to clarify.

In our American language, which is surprisingly similar to English, a question asks a question and has a question mark at the end.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 12/11/2010 4:50:47 PM >

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 4:46:22 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Coming from you whose only argument is "bullshit", i take that as a compliment

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:00:03 PM   
Laymedown60


Posts: 41
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline 		I look at my religion and family as the same thing...I can't imagine one without the other so they are not separate to me. I look at my country as my extended family...wayward uncle, cousins and all. When my country is attacked I feel my family has been as well. I don’t always agree with my extended family but they will always be family.

Butch

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:02:58 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Coming from you whose only argument is "bullshit", i take that as a compliment


I dont use it as an argument, it is a statement of fact and demand for support for preposterous statements. So much can be communicated with just 8 letters.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:05:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Those 8 letters also indicate a certain level of supidity about the user... typically basement floor level.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:12:00 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Those 8 letters also indicate a certain level of supidity about the user... typically basement floor level.


Coming from one who occupies the "supid" basement, its all up from here for you.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:14:51 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		At least i know the way up unlike yourself. And please stop begging for the map. No one is giving it to you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:18:32 PM   
liks2plzlf


Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		Damn! Can't we all get along

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:22:39 PM   
liks2plzlf


Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline 		I would understand putting the almost airborne 82nd, under country. Almost airborne according to one of my hundred and first friends

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:26:17 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: flcouple2009

Tazzy,

I think the fact that he needs to come up with these absurd scenarios and suggest that putting the family first would mean silly things like covering up the fact that your child committed a hideous crime speaks volumes about Firm.



I took it him testing what i meant. While, with the last one, he could push the issue and state i would turn my son in, knowing he would be safe and sound if i didn't, would be putting country first, i would disagree again. I don't know anyone who lives in Washington. Probably not know anyone on that plane. I can assure you those lives would not be first in my mind.

Someone who would go that far to prove a political, or religious, point, in my mind, is off the deep end and needs help. Even my own child. And there would be my thought process.

Hey, tazzy, I'm back for a bit.  We got our shopping done.

For everyone else's info, I respect tazzy, and have no intent to cause harm or hard feelings, and I don't believe either she or I have done anything but attempt to engage in a little intellectual exercise.

My point was that sometimes our "identity priorities" may shift, based on different circumstances.

tazzy says that, to her, family will always come first.

And it may, and that is fine, but I asked for, and received permission to explore that, and that was all we were doing.

I was attempting to highlight two opposing moral claims, place them in extremely sharp relief so that a decision to follow one, would require not following the other one.

This management of such a hypothetical situation is common in such experiments.  Perhaps I did not design them correctly, in the on-the-fly postings in a thread.  My bad.

However, I do not think that it's impossible for someone to hold a position that is the ultimate, non-negotiable "identity priority", just unlikely.

She could "hypothetically" choose her son over the lives of millions.  From one evolutionary view, that is even a valid moral choice.

I also think that such a person could be so conflicted by such a choice, that they could refuse to make an actual choice, by (for example) committing suicide.  I'm not saying that this is true in tazzy's case, however.

I could continue with our experiment, if tazzy wants, but truthfully, I've got a new toy, and so do not have enough interest right now.

tazzy, thanks for your participation.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:29:11 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Your welcome Firm. your new toy awaits! Hope you enjoy!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:33:47 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		1. Philosophy/Religion. These are the same in a practical sense.

Really that is it, people. You can say family, country, corp, all you want but those concepts are defined by 1. One can say my family is #1 but then turn them in to the police, for coming into conflict with another principle, thus the family relationship does not define right or wrong, but the ideas of right wrong gathered from Religion/Philosophy/Ideas/ define how you interact. So, family does not trump anything, nor does anything trump the only thing of importance in the whole world, and that is basic ideas one holds as truth, and those ideas come from predominantly Religion and Philosophy, and then applied into a semi rigid set of rules we call laws, and then we tell children from birth some things are right and wrong, and they grow up believing, it to be fact, without acknowledging the origin.

There is nothing else people. It's all just accepted ideas of what means to be good or bad. If you will base family decisions on right and wrong, then you are serving an idea first and foremost.

A person that put family or anybody above all else, would have no compass of right and wrong, as right is defined by whatever the family unit wanted it to be. Manson Family more or less.



(in reply to liks2plzlf)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:36:24 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Did Manson put the family first?

I think your definition of putting something first and mine are on two different playing fields.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:40:42 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Excellent post. Thanks

_____________________________

1. Islam and sharia are indivisible.
2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
ERGO: Islam has no place in America.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:44:26 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Did Manson put the family first?

I think your definition of putting something first and mine are on two different playing fields.


My point is if a relationship is #1 then that would define right or wrong. Thus any manner of behaviour could become acceptable at anytime.

If I however believe murder is wrong, and I would turn my son in for doing that, then I would be serving the idea of right and wrong first, and murder being wrong is not an immutable fact. So, I would be holding an idea above family relationship, and that idea that murder is wrong, is a Religious/philosophical question ingrained in law and accepted to be true by most people.

So, turning a son in for murder is in fact putting a concept/idea/philosophy/religion above a relationship status.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 5:49:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		You are forgetting some things. First, i know my son better than he knows himself. His ability to live with himself after committing murder would be impossible. If my son killed my mother, i could forgive my son. I would still turn him in, and get him the help he desperately needed. But i would still forgive him. If my mother killed my son, there is no level of forgiveness for that act.

How that paradigm may exist in your world, i have no clue. In mine, it fits in perfectly.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 6:13:23 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You are forgetting some things. First, i know my son better than he knows himself. His ability to live with himself after committing murder would be impossible. If my son killed my mother, i could forgive my son. I would still turn him in, and get him the help he desperately needed. But i would still forgive him. If my mother killed my son, there is no level of forgiveness for that act.

How that paradigm may exist in your world, i have no clue. In mine, it fits in perfectly.


You are solving riddles based on right and wrong, without acknowledging that right and wrong come from something. You aren't born with these views, you are taught them. So, the ideas instilled in you so deeply, are causing your decisions, and those ideas stem ultimately from philosophy and religion.

So, that's why it must be number 1.

Well, that is all have to say on the subject. I think if you think about it, you'll reorder the list though.







(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Self-identification - 12/11/2010 8:02:11 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I gave you an answer that I think is sufficient to any Christian.
I suggested a book on the subject.
I also said that I thought it would be rare, and extreme, for such conflict to exist.


I'm sorry; I didn't realize that was intended to be a complete answer. But if you feel that your reply was truly sufficient for any Christian, I think it says a lot about why I scoff at Christianity.

I asked for a reasoned argument, an explanation of why it feels right to you to believe that. You responded by quoting a Commandment, and  mentioning a book you read and a general who agrees with you. That doesn't explain anything at all about why you believe that - why that prioritization makes sense to you, why it feels right to you, what it is about Christianity that speaks to your soul so clearly and so meaningfully that you apparently don't see any conflict with placing your devotion to your religion above your love for and devotion to your family. At the end of the discussion, I don't know anything more than I did at the beginning.




quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
But a friend of mine for over 40 years pretty much faced it. This woman is probably the most truly committed Christian I have ever known...

<snip snip snip>

It breaks her heart, anew, to see her grandchildren raised Jewish.
She prays for them, and bites her tongue a lot.
And doesn't see them too much. Her daughter made her choice.


Then she's not much of a Christian, is she? Reminds me of what Gandhi said - "I like your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."





quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Had I thought of it, I would have expected you to be incapable of coming remotely close to comprehending her pain. Right again.


I can comprehend it, but I'm not sure why any of us should really care very much about her pain. She has no one to blame but herself. If I'm understanding you correctly, she made a conscious choice to essentially disown her daughter because she converted to another religion. Now her decision is causing her pain and distress, and for some reason we're supposed to feel sorry for her?

Not me. Not much, anyway. I feel a small degree of sympathy for her, the same as I would feel for any human being who's suffering, but most of my sympathy is reserved for the daughter she rejected and the grandchildren who barely have a grandmother because of her intolerance and bigotry. What you're describing is a shameful tragedy, yet you seem to regard it almost as an act of heroism. I just can't understand that way of thinking. Is that really the way you people think Christ wants you to live your lives?

< Message edited by ThatDamnedPanda -- 12/11/2010 8:05:14 PM >

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 100
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