RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (Full Version)

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Lucylastic -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 6:57:31 AM)

awwwwww you are SOOOOOOOo welcome CD
So glad you see the hilarity this thread has caused on all sides.
Ive never seen anyone on the right complain about prison conditions either military or civilian before EVER
but now its as torturous as abu ghraib
You cant make this shit up, oh ...except, this thread is here to prove otherwise



angelikaJ -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 7:07:47 AM)

FR

Regarding Manning being on suicide watch: his attorney states that is no longer the case.

He is allowed an hour of television/day including news programing. He does have access to print news as well.

He will be seeing a family member this weekend on a visitation because today is his 23rd birthday.

http://bltwy.msnbc.msn.com/politics/bradley-mannings-prison-hell-1669811.story



rulemylife -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 7:15:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Extended solitary confinement is far more damaging and long lasting psychologically than waterboarding.


I'll be waiting right here by my computer for the studies that you are basing that claim on.

You do have those studies and research papers available, right Willbeur?

I mean you must.  How else would you be able to state it with such certainty?  And we all know you have too much integrity to just make something up.

So, I'll be looking forward to you posting them.





mnottertail -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 7:35:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I do not define it as torture, and have you ever been to Mannheim, Leavenworth or Ft. Riley?  That sort of military treatment is common shit.


I'm wondering if  you've ever been to any of those places.  I was stationed at Leavenworth and worked in the USDB.

It is not "common shit".



I have been to all those places, several times, for a while I transported prisoners from overseas to serve out whatever sentence they got at Levy or Riley.  I saw it as common shit, so......and alot of other things that I would consider worse than that by far.



CreativeDominant -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 7:45:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Extended solitary confinement is far more damaging and long lasting psychologically than waterboarding.


I'll be waiting right here by my computer for the studies that you are basing that claim on.

You do have those studies and research papers available, right Willbeur?

I mean you must.  How else would you be able to state it with such certainty?  And we all know you have too much integrity to just make something up.

So, I'll be looking forward to you posting them.

While you are waiting, I thought I'd send you these.  CAVEAT:  I am not vouching for the veracity of these citations nor am I stating that I am in support of what is said in these or NOT in support of these.

http://supportdanielboyd.wordpress.com/solitary-confinement-is-torture/ 

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/solitaryconfinement/ 
One very interesting statement from this article: 
Academic scientific analysis of solitary confinement is still in its early stages, but the results are obvious, and echo the experiences of Americans who’ve been held in solitary confinement by terrorists or as prisoners of war. Human beings evolved to be social creatures. Solitary confinement drives us mad.

http://linguistics.ucdavis.edu/People/fzojeda/human-rights/what_is_pt.pdf  (might take awhile to get through but fascinating)

http://www.prosebeforehos.com/article-of-the-day/12/16/is-solitary-confinement-a-form-of-torture/  They mention EEG studies of those who've been in solitary and the changes noted in the brain.  I wonder if that has been undertaken with those who've been waterboarded.  Seems that it might be a relevant means of comparison.



Musicmystery -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 7:53:39 AM)

quote:

CAVEAT: I am not vouching for the veracity of these citations nor am I stating that I am in support of what is said in these or NOT in support of these.


Then just what ARE you doing?



Moonhead -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 7:55:17 AM)

Backpeddling?



Moonhead -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 8:25:46 AM)

Why is the lad in that cartoon being fellated by Mickey Mouse?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 11:37:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Don't get me wrong, Rich. I've no special sympathy for Manning at all.

Nor do I think Greenwald is an author of repute.

However, how do you think some of our brethren lefties would react if he were a member of AQ, and "Boosh" were still President?

Did you give a toss about the conditions under which detained prisoners were held when the chimp was still in power, or is this yet another case of "anything to diss the Kenyan with" from somebody who's still sulking because Sorebutt and Barbie lost the election the other year?
Come to that, why are you citing an article written by an author you don't think is a reputable source in the first place?
(Where you get the brass neck to complain about anybody else's ideological blinkers, I can't imagine.)

Did you give a toss about the conditions under which detained prisoners were held when the chimp was still in power, or is this yet another case of "anything to diss the Kenyan with" from somebody who's still sulking because Sorebutt and Barbie lost the election the other year?

Such vitriol.  Touch a nerve, did I?  [:)]

But to take your questions seriously:

1.  I'm actually "glad" that "Sorebutt and Barbie" lost.  You can find my comments on it in earlier threads.

2.  I've not "dissed" Obama much - if at all.  I've said he would be a disaster in the short term for the US but likely lead to a conservative resurgences otherwise. Truthfully, for his failings I lay the fault on the very same blind ideological thinking of the voters that you seem to be inured with.

3.  To finally answer your question, I don't think that there is much wrong with how they are treating Manning versus AQ prisoners: I think - on the whole - they are all treated as well as they should expect.  I'm not "for" torture, but I may differ on what constitutes "torture" and think the discussion is valid and useful.

Come to that, why are you citing an article written by an author you don't think is a reputable source in the first place?

Because, regardless of what I may think of him in general, he does seem to be consistent (somewhat) in his damnation, thereby highlighting the hypocrisy of those that are not.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 11:40:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Sorry Firm, but at least in this instance--busted.

Sorry, MM, I don't accept that.

A "troll" is someone who posts usually irrelevant or off-topic messages with the intent to disrupt the normal on-topic conversations.

None of which apply in this case.

Firm



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 11:51:47 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandK
Oh?

And why do you post?

Firm


To educate you.
Read the Wiki link, it confirms you earlier answer as to why you post as you do. Making your own definitions doesnt mean you werent busted by your own hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 11:51:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

awwwwww you are SOOOOOOOo welcome CD
So glad you see the hilarity this thread has caused on all sides.
Ive never seen anyone on the right complain about prison conditions either military or civilian before EVER
but now its as torturous as abu ghraib
You cant make this shit up, oh ...except, this thread is here to prove otherwise

Ahh, but Lucy, your not grasping a couple of facts:

1.  I'm not complaining about Manning's treatment.  My OP asked a question.

2.  It is the left's hypocrisy that is being pointed out, not the right's (yeah, we have some too, I'll admit).

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 11:54:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandK
Oh?

And why do you post?

Firm


To educate you.
Read the Wiki link, it confirms you earlier answer as to why you post as you do. Making your own definitions doesnt mean you werent busted by your own hand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

I'm going to change your nic to "cherry picker" I think.

Read the entire definition:

... inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

If we want to stick with your twisted, abbreviated definition, then I can call "troll" on damn near everything posted from the left.

Firm



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 11:58:27 AM)

Oh my bad. YOU can cherry pick but no one else can..... Anyone with a brain got your "primary intent" for the OP.




FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 12:06:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Oh my bad. YOU can cherry pick but no one else can..... Anyone with a brain got your "primary intent" for the OP.

Where have I cherry picked, Oh Great One?

Firm



Politesub53 -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 12:20:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Oh my bad. YOU can cherry pick but no one else can..... Anyone with a brain got your "primary intent" for the OP.

Where have I cherry picked, Oh Great One?

Firm



Where you have higlighted selective parts, such as from the link to the Daily Mirror article. Yet you claim have cherry picked by posting the link to the complete story. As far as I can see only one of us has posted the whole thing, albeit mine was a link.



willbeurdaddy -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 12:48:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Extended solitary confinement is far more damaging and long lasting psychologically than waterboarding.


I'll be waiting right here by my computer for the studies that you are basing that claim on.

You do have those studies and research papers available, right Willbeur?

I mean you must.  How else would you be able to state it with such certainty?  And we all know you have too much integrity to just make something up.

So, I'll be looking forward to you posting them.

While you are waiting, I thought I'd send you these.  CAVEAT:  I am not vouching for the veracity of these citations nor am I stating that I am in support of what is said in these or NOT in support of these.

http://supportdanielboyd.wordpress.com/solitary-confinement-is-torture/ 

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2009/04/solitaryconfinement/ 
One very interesting statement from this article: 
Academic scientific analysis of solitary confinement is still in its early stages, but the results are obvious, and echo the experiences of Americans who’ve been held in solitary confinement by terrorists or as prisoners of war. Human beings evolved to be social creatures. Solitary confinement drives us mad.

http://linguistics.ucdavis.edu/People/fzojeda/human-rights/what_is_pt.pdf  (might take awhile to get through but fascinating)

http://www.prosebeforehos.com/article-of-the-day/12/16/is-solitary-confinement-a-form-of-torture/  They mention EEG studies of those who've been in solitary and the changes noted in the brain.  I wonder if that has been undertaken with those who've been waterboarded.  Seems that it might be a relevant means of comparison.


I didnt see the post you responded to so ty for this. There are dozens of studies of the long term effects of extended solitary confinement. WRT to waterboaring, all you can find is one quote recycled over and over again, without citations or a supporting study. Waterboarding was a routine part of SERE training, and the only long term adverse effect noted was that it had the reverse of the intended consequences...rather than strengthening the ability to withstand torture there was a reduction in that ability because the subject realized that it is so effective they would never be able to withstand it should it be used in a real situation.

There are also the usual bogus claims related to supposed Japanese waterboarding in WWII, when the Japanese technique was not the methods in use today.



Musicmystery -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 12:55:36 PM)

quote:

A "troll" is someone who posts usually irrelevant or off-topic messages with the intent to disrupt the normal on-topic conversations.


For your education:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29



flcouple2009 -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 1:31:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
2.  It is the left's hypocrisy that is being pointed out, not the right's (yeah, we have some too, I'll admit).


Funny it was your silliness in trying to bait everyone into your BS we were all pointing out.

When you come back with evidence of torture get back to me.  When they start water boarding or beating him then we'll talk.

When you come back with a Presidential finding that put him in solitary or rulings by the US Attorney General giving reasons to hold him in solitary we can discuss it.

I never cared if they held anyone is solitary, so why should I care now?

But trying to troll with the writings of someone you don't have any respect for just to try and create drama is rich.

Take a cue form the US and all of the times we jumped into bed with shady operators because we thought it would make a point. 

Has that ever ended well?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama Admin Responsible for Torture? (12/17/2010 2:39:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

A "troll" is someone who posts usually irrelevant or off-topic messages with the intent to disrupt the normal on-topic conversations.


For your education:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29

A little late, MM.  I've already addressed that, and pointed out that he was ignoring the full definition, and thereby redefining it.

Come on: let's lay our cards on the table.  He doesn't want to address the turd that I slung on the table, so he's trying to change the debate.  Common tactic, when your hand is weak.

Firm



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