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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:16:35 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDaddy723

Yes Thank You blacksword, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I have one problem with the whole thing Huck Finn isn't a Childrens book. It is a book for young adults. No one under the age of 14 should be reading it because there are things in it that they won't understand. I also saw someone mention Uncle Tom's cabin Also another American classic that should be taughs in schools. I think to see the word used as it was for so long in the country would open the eyes of every kid who uses it. Yes sometimes things are offensive, tough, get used to it. You can't and shouldn't sugarcoat the Real things that happend in this counrty. If we dumb things down for everyone. The greatest achevement anyonefrom this country will get is High Score on some video game. Yes the word nigger has some very bad history behind it. But we will never truely heal as a country until we confront the issue as bluntly as Twain...
just my 2 cents and Sorry if it isn't coherrent, blame it on Nyquil and Burbon

It was entirely coherent, and I enjoyed reading it.

And yes; there seems to be this almost insane drive to bring children to great works ahead of time, as if, if Generation Y read it one year earlier than Generation X did, that's somehow "progress". It isn't. People need to come to things in their own time, and if that means that schools err on the side of caution when selecting set works during the "indeterminate" years then so be it.

But altering a book, or censoring it, or indeed "colourising" a film (as another example) is cultural vandalism, and to be rightly shunned by anyone with any respect for the past, and past creators.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:20:12 PM   
PeonForHer


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ORIGINAL: RapierFugue

Unlikely. Twain was famously anti-edit. Apoplectically so, at times.


True - I know he snorted in derision at the various bans of his book over the years.  These weren't because of the use of the N word, of course, but because of his use of ordinary people's vernacular.  No wonder he despised his critics.  But that was a long time ago.  In a sense, some of the language he used doesn't necessarily work so well now and I think there may be a case for 'translating' it.  A well-meaning, basically good, but ignorant kid like Huck Finn might well have used the N word in his day, but the equivalent of such a kid nowadays probably wouldn't.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:23:05 PM   
RapierFugue


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ORIGINAL: kdsub

I do wonder who owns the rights to the book... It would be up to them I would think... not your or my personal views.

Who has the right to alter it is not the same thing as whether it should be altered.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
And don't get carried away thinking you know the wishes of the author...

I didn't say or imply that. I merely stated that Twain was famously, and vocally, opposed to editing while he was alive, let alone once he was no longer in a position to object personally, therefore we should, if we have any respect for a great author, stand up for his wishes.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
by the way have you read it? If you have tell me truthfully would changing those words really change the meaning and focus of the book? Is slave any less powerful a word than nigger?

Are you having a laugh? Seriously? You think that the one word equates to the other?

If Twain had wanted us to read the word "slave", he would have written the word "slave". If his use of the "N word" dates the book, then that's good, because it should be dated; the use of that word should feel part of a past we don't want to revisit.

Doesn't mean we can just throw the word, or the work, aside when we feel it suits us.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
Would not changing those words so younger children could read it not be better then not reading it at all?

No, better would be to wait until they can understand the context, and are old enough to read it in its original form.
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
This is all much to do about nothing.

If you truly believe that then you've entirely missed the point. It's vandalism. And vandalism when the owner of the property being vandalised isn't even around to defend their property.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:24:32 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I do wonder who owns the rights to the book... It would be up to them I would think... not your or my personal views.


The books are in the public domain. Evrything published before 1928, IIRC, is.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:26:54 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
In a sense, some of the language he used doesn't necessarily work so well now and I think there may be a case for 'translating' it.  

Cool. I look forward to your "translation" of certain Shakespeare speeches ...

"To be ... Or fucking *what*?"

"Mates, chums, bros, homies; cop on while I spin this one out ... I come not to give this fucker props, but to smack the cunt".

"Oh fuck! Yoric's well overdone the Atkins or fucking what!".

;)

My point being; all works of fiction are a thing of their time. To remove them from their historical context by altering their wording is fundamentally wrong.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:29:13 PM   
PeonForHer


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ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Because an edited or censored version of something is not a "version" or "alternative", it's a travesty, and a betrayal of the author and his/her thought, care and talent.


Gawd, RF. It isn't just about the author, it's about the readers, too.  The whole point of a book is a communication between the former and the latter. 

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:35:45 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Because an edited or censored version of something is not a "version" or "alternative", it's a travesty, and a betrayal of the author and his/her thought, care and talent.


Gawd, RF. It isn't just about the author, it's about the readers, too.  The whole point of a book is a communication between the former and the latter. 

If the readers can't be bothered to understand the context; historical, cultural and artistic, of the book they're reading, then they shouldn't be attempting it, or at least they won’t gain much from it.

Your analogy works fine for a Harold Robbins/Stephen King generation ... now go bring me a simplified version of Ulysses that's nice and easy to read, and I'll show you a work of art that's been pissed on.

It's not the information in the book that the author is concerned about, if they're any good; it's the journey they lead the reader into, so it feels like you're travelling together, and if that includes having to spend some time to understand the historical context then that's a good thing.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:39:44 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
My point being; all works of fiction are a thing of their time. To remove them from their historical context by altering their wording is fundamentally wrong.


To take that to its logical conclusion we'd still be publishing the Bible in Latin only. Or even Hebrew.  

To me, the bottom line is yes, books are a product of their time and, on the whole, I'd rather they be published with their original language.  But there's a kind of economy of values to be worked out, here.  For me, I'd think that I'd like kids - even young kids - to read Huck Finn. I'd think that changing a couple of words wouldn't make a vast difference to the impact of that story.  More to the point I'd think that, as a teacher, who had the choice of teaching a very slightly modified version of Huck Finn or not teaching it at all, I'd go for the former option.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 1/6/2011 6:40:07 PM >

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:45:36 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
My point being; all works of fiction are a thing of their time. To remove them from their historical context by altering their wording is fundamentally wrong.


To take that to its logical conclusion we'd still be publishing the Bible in Latin only. Or even Hebrew.  

To me, the bottom line is yes, books are a product of their time and, on the whole, I'd rather they be published with their original language.  But there's a kind of economy of values to be worked out, here.  For me, I'd think that I'd like kids - even young kids - to read Huck Finn. I'd think that changing a couple of words wouldn't make a vast difference to the impact of that story.  More to the point I'd think that, as a teacher, who had the choice of teaching a very slightly modified version of Huck Finn or not teaching it at all, I'd go for the former option.

I'm not saying don't teach it at all, I'm saying teach it, as it was written and intended to be read by the author, when the students are capable of understanding its context.

I don’t want to argue for the sake of it*, but I hold written works sacred, and I honestly believe this kind of cultural vandalism is something that waters down great works over a surprisingly short space of time (what happens when "slave" isn't acceptable anymore? Do we use "employee"?), and I'm afraid yes I'm a dreadful old stick-in-the-mud where such things are concerned, but that's just me I'm afraid :)

* “things you never thought you’d see written on CM forums, No: 135 in a series of 22,000”

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:46:14 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		I would rather see the book banned by local school districts, here and there, than see a politically correct bastardization with Twain's (Clemens') name on it available to them. The book is written in Huck's voice, and "nigger," is how Huck sees Jim. It's not a minor change.

I think local school boards should have the power to decide what they add to the classroom. Let the book be forbidden fruit for the students in those places. Hell, it might motivate a few to actually read a damn book. Of course, being a free speech kind of guy, I also think those school boards should be on the receiving end of a lot of free speech, and an asskicking at the next ballot.

What I don't think schoolboards should have is a pussy chute that will deprive young people of the original experience of Twain's greatest masterpiece (imho).

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:46:28 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
If the readers can't be bothered to understand the context; historical, cultural and artistic, of the book they're reading, then they shouldn't be attempting it, or at least they won’t gain much from it.


The readers might be very young kids.  Young kids aren't always great at historical, cultural and artistic contexts! 

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:50:27 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
If the readers can't be bothered to understand the context; historical, cultural and artistic, of the book they're reading, then they shouldn't be attempting it, or at least they won’t gain much from it.


The readers might be very young kids.  Young kids aren't always great at historical, cultural and artistic contexts! 

Then they should wait to read it until they can appreciate it, because coming at it too soon just makes it look like a couple of lads out for some larks on a boat, if you're going to remove all the context.

You might as well give them "Three Men In A Boat" and remove all risk* ;)

* although you'd be adding other risks, but that's another story :)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:52:48 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
What I don't think schoolboards should have is a pussy chute that will deprive young people of the original experience of Twain's greatest masterpiece (imho).



Colourful vernacular. Twain would have been proud :)

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 6:59:52 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Then they should wait to read it until they can appreciate it, because coming at it too soon just makes it look like a couple of lads out for some larks on a boat, if you're going to remove all the context.


Noooooo, I can't go with that.  Huck Finn was about a young kid.  Young kids should be able to read it.  I think Mr Clemens would have wanted that.

Frigging hell, if I had my way, then I'd have my pupils read it, and explain about the nasty words as they got on with their reading.  That seems to me to be by far the most sensible solution.  But professional education systems, as I've said, don't work that way. 

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 7:06:47 PM   
RapierFugue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Then they should wait to read it until they can appreciate it, because coming at it too soon just makes it look like a couple of lads out for some larks on a boat, if you're going to remove all the context.


Noooooo, I can't go with that.  Huck Finn was about a young kid.  Young kids should be able to read it.  I think Mr Clemens would have wanted that.

Frigging hell, if I had my way, then I'd have my pupils read it, and explain about the nasty words as they got on with their reading.  That seems to me to be by far the most sensible solution.  But professional education systems, as I've said, don't work that way. 

Then the "Professional education systems" are wrong, not the book. Or the readers are too young.

How typical of the world we now live in; “Waiter! I can’t fit all this bread roll in my mouth at once!” ... “Not a problem, sir, we’ll just get chef to spend the next hour making slightly smaller ones”, rather than “then take a bite you can deal with, you fat fuck”.

Seriously Peon, this is really important stuff; so much of the “reworking” of history and literature that has been done over the years has been for evil or manipulative purposes; you can almost measure the progress (or lack of sometimes) modern culture by its attitudes towards such topics as censorship. Therefore, we need to take a stand and say “can you read what is written?” (i.e. is the book in a language you can understand) and, if the answer is “yes”, then the next line is “then read it, or don’t read it, but don’t expect anyone to spoon feed you”.

I know I must sound like I'm 200 years old, but this stuff matters to me.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 7:13:53 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Because an edited or censored version of something is not a "version" or "alternative", it's a travesty, and a betrayal of the author and his/her thought, care and talent.


Gawd, RF. It isn't just about the author, it's about the readers, too.  The whole point of a book is a communication between the former and the latter. 


No it isn't. The point of a book is what the author feels it is important to say, nothing more and nothing less. If the readers find value in it, so be it. If they don't, then it's their prerogative not to read it. It is nobody's prerogative to rewrite it so that the readers won't find it offensive.


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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 7:14:40 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BigDaddy723

Yes Thank You blacksword, I agree with you whole-heartedly. I have one problem with the whole thing Huck Finn isn't a Childrens book. It is a book for young adults. No one under the age of 14 should be reading it because there are things in it that they won't understand. I also saw someone mention Uncle Tom's cabin Also another American classic that should be taughs in schools. I think to see the word used as it was for so long in the country would open the eyes of every kid who uses it. Yes sometimes things are offensive, tough, get used to it. You can't and shouldn't sugarcoat the Real things that happend in this counrty. If we dumb things down for everyone. The greatest achevement anyonefrom this country will get is High Score on some video game. Yes the word nigger has some very bad history behind it. But we will never truely heal as a country until we confront the issue as bluntly as Twain...
just my 2 cents and Sorry if it isn't coherrent, blame it on Nyquil and Burbon


These are high school books. These kids are only a few years away from being free to make their own decisions. They certainly should be ready to tackle some of it's past.



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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 7:24:13 PM   
blacksword404


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
Because an edited or censored version of something is not a "version" or "alternative", it's a travesty, and a betrayal of the author and his/her thought, care and talent.


Gawd, RF. It isn't just about the author, it's about the readers, too.  The whole point of a book is a communication between the former and the latter. 


We read Shakespeare in high school and the teacher gave us a list of words that did not mean what they currently did now back in his time. Made it very understandable after that. The teacher is there to help them with things they might not understand.

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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 7:25:59 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RapierFugue
I know I must sound like I'm 200 years old, but this stuff matters to me.


You old fuddyduddy.   And, also: you young anarchist rebel.  

I do take your points.  The first thing I ever got published (as a letter, in The Guardian), was a letter railing against 'political correctness'.  That was in the early 1990s.  Back then, 'PC' meant something more exclusively about anally-retentive language than, basically, anything that the right wing doesn't like (as it seems nearly to have become, now).  I still have the fury about that subject as I had then.

As a by the way: I heard once that Marx's Das Kapital was never banned in many countries because, even after translation into the local language, it was considered by the relevant authorities to be too difficult for the masses to understand.  I still haven't worked out my conclusions on that. 



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RE: The Cleansing of Huckleberry Finn - 1/6/2011 7:30:58 PM   
SlaveRMneeded


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quote:

The readers might be very young kids. Young kids aren't always great at historical, cultural and artistic contexts!


Luckily, most children have parents, teachers, or nuns that run the orphanage who are willing to explain historical, cultural and artistic contexts. Hopefully, whomever is not willing to explain them to the children will be silent and let the explanations commence, sink in, and stop all this foolish political correctness that leads to the banning of Uncle Tom's Cabin, as a racist book, when, in fact, it was anti-slavery.

Also, we all read Huckleberry Finn in school, when I was a kid in Elementary school and all the children were aware that the reason the words, dialect, etc. were as they were is that someone took a lot of time and care to write out a very beautiful story that was historically accurate in it's language. We were all also aware of the words, outside of the context of the book, before we read the story, and we were all aware that certain words were considered too rude to say in public. Some used them anyway, most didn't. No one died from either course of action, though, occasionally, some people got punched in the face on the playground.

It's called growing up and being human.

Political correctness only breeds hypocrisy. It needs to stop breeding, altogether.

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