RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang

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PeonForHer -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 9:32:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl To have literature come out specifically against something, back then... lol. Who is anyone trying to kid. Yep - so it was a book written under political pressure. It was a child of its times. It contradicts itself, enormously so, as you've demonstrated. quote: Morality of the Bible? Is it morality its dictating, or acceptance of the life that is being lead and how to deal with it? Either way, its redundant. If the former, then the Bible's clearly morally ambivalent, considered as a whole. If the latter: people lead entirely different lives now and need different lessons on how to deal with them.

Kirata -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 9:36:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The divine is in how to handle them while waiting for humans to change... Absolutely. A good Christian should give his slaves to the poor. [:D] K.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 10:56:55 AM)
lol... Master said he is poor... pass along whatever you have, Master Kirata

tazzygirl -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 10:58:04 AM)
quote: Either way, its redundant. If the former, then the Bible's clearly morally ambivalent, considered as a whole. If the latter: people lead entirely different lives now and need different lessons on how to deal with them. Do they?

GotSteel -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 11:17:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: I have to give the disclaimer that I'm far from familiar with the nuances of Harris's position but my impression of it is that one weighs the morality of an act in terms of human and animal suffering and against alternatives. As such causing/preventing suffering and the possible alternatives are relevant. If you arent familiar, maybe you shouldnt speak for the great Sam Harris. That's certainly an issue, just as it was when you were speaking against him. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl As such, you are speaking for yourself. Try answering the question. No I was speaking of my understanding of his position. However at least to this question my answer is the same. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Who decides? Who makes that judgement call? quote: Exactly the same way it works now. Again, not an answer. Just a deflection. That's reality, regardless of whether or not there's a higher power out there, people are ones doing all the talking and all the deciding.

PeonForHer -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 11:28:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Either way, its redundant. If the former, then the Bible's clearly morally ambivalent, considered as a whole. If the latter: people lead entirely different lives now and need different lessons on how to deal with them. Do they? Yes. That's why the lines, from Leviticus, cited by Steel above, look repugnant now. They're out of place in today's world, and out of time, too. We don't want, or need, advice on which people to take as slaves, nor how to keep them, any more.

GotSteel -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 12:28:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The divine is in how to handle them while waiting for humans to change... Absolutely. A good Christian should give his slaves to the poor. [:D] K. I got a kick out of that.

tweakabelle -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 12:56:10 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl The divine is in how to handle them while waiting for humans to change... Absolutely. A good Christian should give his slaves to the poor. [:D] K. I got a kick out of that. Yes. So did I [:D] Retaining ownership rights on the collars might be an issue tho - where should we go to seek guidance on that important moral and legal issue? [:D] [:D]

tweakabelle -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 1:15:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer Yes. That's why the lines, from Leviticus, cited by Steel above, look repugnant now. They're out of place in today's world, and out of time, too. We don't want, or need, advice on which people to take as slaves, nor how to keep them, any more. We need to recognise not only that morals change within a culture over time, but also that they change across cultures too. Different cultures have different moral and ethical systems. Morals are profoundly human. There is a school of thought that asserts that recognition of this would empower many more people to participate in ethical debates, to be far more aware of their ethical choices. The age where ordinary people feel compelled to refer these decisions to 'experts' (often self-appointed), where ethics and morals were seen as the monopoly of a single interest sector would be over. Would this 'democratisation' of ethics be a step forward?

PeonForHer -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 1:48:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle We need to recognise not only that morals change within a culture over time, but also that they change across cultures too. They do. And the idea of what constitutes knowledge changes, likewise. If I were to report here tomorrow that I'd had a Divine Experience, in which God had visited me to give me a new set of Commandments, I would hope that everyone here would gently advise me to pop off to the nearest psychiatrist. quote: Would this 'democratisation' of ethics be a step forward? Yes, it would. There's a school of thought that even goes so far as to propose 'epistemological anarchism', (e.g Paul Feyerabend) that sometimes goes as far as argue that any claim to knowledge is equal to any other. That's a much bigger step than I'd want to take. But I would like to take the frigging relentless authoritarianism out of it. I would like it far fewer people accepted the dictates of a man in a white gown just because he's in that white gown. But, similarly, we should all have stopped venerating some loon just because he wears a white lab-coat. Or, for that matter, just because he pumps out hundreds of books and has his marketing people constantly telling us that he's a polymathic genius. (That, to me, leads to the kind of authoritarianism that's a peculiar product of the capitalist system.) The democratisation of knowledge (including moral knowledge) started happening a long time ago. Yes, I very much think we need more of that.

Kirata -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 3:47:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle Would this 'democratisation' of ethics be a step forward? Yes, it would... I very much think we need more of that. Our brains are wired for empathy, even small children demonstrate an understanding of fairness, and people of all religious backgrounds, as well as no religious background, respond to unfamiliar moral dilemmas in the same way. The moral absolute is within us. It is not decided by votes or edicts. Some things are wrong no matter how many damaged or misguided people believe otherwise and no matter what temporal or religious authority proclaims the contrary. K.

PeonForHer -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 4:14:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata Our brains are wired for empathy, even small children demonstrate an understanding of fairness, and people of all religious backgrounds, as well as no religious background, respond to unfamiliar moral dilemmas in the same way. The moral absolute is within us. It is not decided by votes or edicts. Some things are wrong no matter how many damaged or misguided people believe otherwise and no matter what temporal or religious authority proclaims the contrary. No argument! Well, I might hesitate at calling it 'the moral absolute'. Following that, the most basic moral principle I've been able to work out is, in fact, contained in the Bible - but also seems to be the root of moral systems everywhere. This is, "Do to others as you'd have them do to you". Empathy, I think, is the necessary condition for that to work. But it's not the sufficient condition. The question of how to operationalise it . . . that's enormous.

GotSteel -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 6:12:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Slavery was practiced in parts of the world that had no association with the "devine" texts. Your excuse for those? There's no excuse for slavery, but absent a discussion based in reality it's easy to make up justifications. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: For instance Tazzy is convinced that the crusades and the Spanish inquisition weren't religious. Pretty simplistic summary of my POV.. one that I have made in depth. Which tells me you didnt go at it with an open mind, nor with any attempt at understanding. Oh? Hey Tazzy, were the Spanish inquisition or the crusades religious? quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Hey Tazzy, does the Bible endorse slavery? Yep, sure did. Good for you, I didn't see that coming. I figured you'd have some excuse...oh wait there it is [sm=m23.gif] quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I agree with b. Slavery was an accepted cultural condition dating back to the China Empire since around 210 BCE. Taken in the context that Christianity, as a movement began around 1AD. The writings in Leviticus is dated about 5 BCE. What I find amazing is how anyone can take what was written so long ago and apply snipped segments of it today. Do you know the Bible also says if a man is a runaway, then you should take him into your home and not return him to his master? Have you seen this snippet? "You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you." (Deuteronomy 23:15) "He who kidnaps a man, whether he sells him or he is found in his possession, shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 21:16) Depending on where you look, and the context of what is being written about, the story changes. So sorry to disappoint, but slavery was very much a part of the culture in 5 BCE. To have it not be a part of the literature from that time would be quite strange. To have literature come out specifically against something, back then... lol. Who is anyone trying to kid. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: According to Jewish and Christian tradition, God dictated the Book of Leviticus to Moses as He did the other books of the Bible.[1] Modern scholarship sees it as a product of the Priestly source and the 5th century BCE. Your point? It's absurd that we as a civilization are still viewing morality in terms of the dictates of the imaginary friend of those anoymous guys when our understanding of everything has come so far. You could punch out a far superior top ten list without even giving it much thought, we all could. Yet we are still putting up monuments of the ten commandments...it's just absurd. Hey Steel... did a society need the Bible to endorse slavery? (Careful how you answer this one) Not at all, just a morality disassociated from reality.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 7:13:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Either way, its redundant. If the former, then the Bible's clearly morally ambivalent, considered as a whole. If the latter: people lead entirely different lives now and need different lessons on how to deal with them. Do they? Yes. That's why the lines, from Leviticus, cited by Steel above, look repugnant now. They're out of place in today's world, and out of time, too. We don't want, or need, advice on which people to take as slaves, nor how to keep them, any more. What i meant is that the bible holds many lessons, not just about slavery. Do we toss them all out because one was solved?

tazzygirl -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 7:30:46 PM)
quote: Oh? Hey Tazzy, were the Spanish inquisition or the crusades religious? No, and I have proven that. quote: quote: Hey Steel... did a society need the Bible to endorse slavery? (Careful how you answer this one) Not at all, just a morality disassociated from reality. You are judging the morals of a time gone by with today's standards... and thats hypocritical. Im not speaking of the type of slavery seen in the US. Im speaking of the slavery utilized by civilizations over 4000 years ago. Slavery in ancient cultures was known to occur in civilizations as old as Sumer, and it was found in every civilization, including Ancient Egypt, the Akkadian Empire, Assyria, Ancient Greece,[8] Rome and parts of its empire. Such institutions were a mixture of debt-slavery, punishment for crime, the enslavement of prisoners of war, child abandonment, and the birth of slave children to slaves.[9] In the Roman Empire, probably over 25% of the empire's population,[10] and 30 to 40% of the population of Italy[11] was enslaved. Records of slavery in Ancient Greece go as far back as Mycenaean Greece. It is often said that the Greeks as well as philosophers such as Aristotle accepted the theory of natural slavery i.e. that some men are slaves by nature. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_slavery Im sure you will have some argument that this is wrong... and you would be right... it IS wrong... but it wasnt wrong... and in that, you are extremely narrowminded. You are expecting agreement to your position ... and you also know it isnt going to happen. It used to be perfectly acceptable to place someone into debtors prison... now its not. It used to be ok to arrange marriages between children... now, not so much. You can keep your moral high road and stomp your foot and argue.. Slavery is wrong. Guess what, no one is arguing that point. quote: It's absurd that we as a civilization are still viewing morality in terms of the dictates of the imaginary friend of those anoymous guys when our understanding of everything has come so far. You could punch out a far superior top ten list without even giving it much thought, we all could. Yet we are still putting up monuments of the ten commandments...it's just absurd. And there you go stomping your foot again because everyone does not believe as you demand they should believe. [;)] Good luck with that.

PeonForHer -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 7:34:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl What i meant is that the bible holds many lessons, not just about slavery. Do we toss them all out because one was solved? No, that wouldn't make sense to me. But . . . people seem averse to picking and choosing from the Bible in a conscious and reasoned way, perhaps because that might be seen as a slippery slope. Truth is, I don't know the answer to that question right now. It's not one that I've really considered. I'll have to ponder it.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 8:23:39 PM)
I will be looking forward to the results of your pondering.

PeonForHer -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 8:44:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I will be looking forward to the results of your pondering. It may take a while. In fact, I make take a wander on my Honda as I ponder, in the valley of the Rhondda, which can be seen through my window, yonder. Actually, I need to get to bed, where I should have been hours ago.

tazzygirl -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 8:48:06 PM)
lol... i didnt mean tonight, silly. If the thread is ended by the time your pondering is over, drop me a line on the other side! Sweet dreams!

GotSteel -> RE: Pope Says God is Behind the Big Bang (2/6/2011 11:19:27 PM)
This is what I'm talking about. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Oh? Hey Tazzy, were the Spanish inquisition or the crusades religious? No, and I have proven that.

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