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RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/11/2011 6:00:37 PM

SylvereApLeanan

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I'm not a historian or a history buff so I couldn't begin to speculate on how common female-led relationships were in that era. I imagine those that existed were either well-concealed or the women involved were seen as the proverbial "dragon ladies" by those around them. I doubt anyone ever considered that such a dynamic might suit both partners just fine or that it was deliberate.

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Post #: 21

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/11/2011 6:52:15 PM

ThePeripatetic

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I understand what all of you are saying in terms of feminism having
very little to do with how you are wired sexually. It makes sense
that something on an intellectual level, in terms of feminist theory,
doesn't weigh heavily on what brings you enjoyment through BDSM. You
like what you like.

So here's an idea I had... do you think it is concievable that the
feminist movements of modern history have opened the door for women
today to claim their right to sexual fulfillment? That it has opened
the door for BDSM to be accepted as one's sexual prerogative? I mean,
wouldn't you be completely incensed if someone was up in your face and
said, "You can't treat a man like that! I don't care if that's what
turns you on. It's wrong!" Isn't your initial response, "Fuck off!
None of your business." I realize that there are still many people
who aren't accepting of the BDSM lifestyle and will continue to judge
those of us who live in that realm but, with some exceptions, they
stay out of it. They, consciously or uncosciously, accept that this
is our prerogative (granted, there are still exceptions).

And do we perhaps take this for granted nowadays? This idea that we
all (male or female, gay or straight) have a right to sexual enjoyment
(within Safe, Sane, Consenual, and Legal parameters)? I realize that
this isn't completely the case for those who are homosexual, we
certainly still have a ways to go within society to make that a
reality.??But compare this perhaps with women a century ago (or a huge
percentage of women today in the developing world) who enjoy none of
these privileges. Essentially, these women would never concieve of
saying, "Hey, this is what I enjoy sexually. I want this." That
being a quick way for a woman, in many places on this planet and
throughout history, to be beat... or worse!

(I realize I'm potentially opening a bag of snakes here. Please
understand I'm trying to be as conscientious as possible when asking
these questions. I in no way wish to offend anyone... or incite a
riot! These are just some ideas I've been tossing around in my head
and I figured I would open it up to some respectful discourse on the
forums.)

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"The Journey is the Destination" - Dan Eldon (One of my heroes. R.I.P.)

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Post #: 22

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/11/2011 7:00:57 PM

MasterFireMaam

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For Us, feminism, taken from religion, taught Us that We should be the submissive Christian wife. Having tried to do that twice, We figured out that feminism is really about choice. We choose to be Ourself... Top, bottom, dominant, female gendered, female bodied, Master. We also learned that feminism and feminine aren't necessarily linked.

Master Fire

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Post #: 23

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/11/2011 7:23:48 PM

LadyRian

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

I don't think lack of visibility is necessarily indicative of lack of activity.

This is definitely true. But how common do you think female-led relationships were say in the 1930s, '40s, '50s? I'm largely ignorant of the history on this. Do you think it was more common than we might imagine but just well concealed due to society's emphasis on traditional gender norms at the time?

I don't think we'll ever know percentages, and I do agree that they were relatively common, but well concealed.

I definitely consider myself a feminist, and for me, it has nothing to do with BDSM, although it does seem easier for me to express dominance naturally, without having to "unlearn" a lot.

As for books on the subject, I recommend "Backlash" by Susan Faludi.

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Post #: 24

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/12/2011 12:02:40 AM

ThePeripatetic

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I want to thank everyone for posting responses even though, as I now see, my original question was a bit ill-concieved. However, your responses did get my wheels turning and...

I'm now going to hijack my own thread a bit. My initial sophomoric assumptions/thought process with all of this ended up digressing toward thinking about the general history of BDSM. I can see now that the basis for my original question is more rooted in curiosity about the overall history of how BDSM has become as prolific as it now is (not saying that it's significantly widespread, just much more so than 20, 30 or 100 years ago). And I say "prolific" in terms of how many kink communities there are globally, the popularity of sites like this, the availability of BDSM toys, etc. From what I can tell, not much of this was in existence early and mid 20th century until maybe just 20 years ago (obviously what I'm speaking about is before my time so I can't say for certain). So I suppose the questions that arise in my mind now are "Why now?" and "How did BDSM get to this point?"

Anyway, I've been diving into some research to satiate this curiosity a bit. Came across this quick read that gives a nice overview of BDSM history if anyone is interested (could make for a good thesis topic if I weren't already heading in a completely different direction career-wise.)

Umm yeah, probably should have looked into this a bit more before I threw the question out on the forums but some good did come out of it so again, thanks for the responses.

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Post #: 25

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/12/2011 1:26:59 AM

Wickad

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(fast reply)

To the OP,

Just to throw a wrench into things ...

Have you considered that the majority of F/m dynamics prior to the feminist movement (which by this analysis purports to have opened it up to the general public) took place behind the closed doors of whore houses and the like. It could be argued that just as many men were interested in BDSM then as are now. The difference being that those men were serviced by prostitutes and professional Dominant women. It could also be argued that wives at that time, though some probably longing for a dominant position in the bedroom, where largely ignored as 'good women' didn't get involved in that type of 'perversion'. It could further be argued that many of these women found their way to power via their church involvements.

There is are a great many things that can be extrapolated from the near and somewhat distant past, but I believe it is safe to say that BDSM has always been around in one form or another, especially the FemDom dynamic, and that for the most part we'll remain ignorant of the exact details because most of these 'interactions' where by their very nature secret.

Wickad

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Post #: 26

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/12/2011 1:31:59 AM

AlexandraLynch

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I think of my grandparents, who had outwardly a very traditional marriage. She doted on him and liked to do little things to make him happy, he liked to make her happy, and felt his job was to go to work and make the money and maintain the "man things" of the house, and she felt that her job was to keep things nice in the house and manage everything. Now, that sounds egalitarian, but he went to work and handed her his check and got an allowance, she handled the family finances, she decided what they ate and when and where, when they bought a new car, what he wore, and what he needed to be done, told him, and he did it.

So perhaps on the surface the image of him coming home and her meeting him in a clean dress, the house sparkling and dinner almost ready in the 1950's is a male dominance scene, but the reality of it was pretty damn female led.

The same was true of their daughters.

So when I got into this, my image of a dominant woman was not of a latex-clad bitch goddess with a whip, it was my very femme, traditionally competent housewife grandmother, around whom everything...and everyone...did just what Grandma wanted, without her raising her voice or getting upset. Because that was Just The Way The World Was.

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Post #: 27

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/12/2011 7:30:15 AM

LadyHibiscus

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AlexandraLynch has described my life, though the women in my family also worked outside the home. My grandfather called my grandmother "boss". In a loving way, of course!

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Post #: 28

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/12/2011 8:34:23 AM

LaTigresse

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Yes indeed. The most off balance and screwed up relationship I've ever seen was my own parents. Both had the grand religious based idea of what a marriage was supposed to be, but neither was responsible, mature, or mentally stable enough, to even begin to maintain their ideal roles.

The successful relationships I've seen were primarily female led, if even subtly, or a more 50/50 agreement.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/13/2011 8:28:50 PM

naughtynick81

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For the dommes who claim to be feminists and also claim to be into female supremacy really questions their motivations on being a feminist

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Post #: 30

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/13/2011 8:29:11 PM

Lucienne

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OP, one would expect a more robust line of communication between feminism and bdsm than what actually exists. There should be more communication, because there's a pretty big overlap (and room to learn and grow from each other) on consent issues. But for assorted reasons, this is not the case.

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Post #: 31

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/13/2011 8:44:28 PM

naughtynick81

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Christina Hoff Sommers is a good start to learn about feminism

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Post #: 32

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/13/2011 8:55:55 PM

naughtynick81

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Here is another good start to learn about feminism

Why does misandry exist?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZAuqkqxk9A

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Post #: 33

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/13/2011 9:40:18 PM

naughtynick81

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quote:

'm not a historian or a history buff so I couldn't begin to speculate on how common female-led relationships were in that era. I imagine those that existed were either well-concealed or the women involved were seen as the proverbial "dragon ladies" by those around them. I doubt anyone ever considered that such a dynamic might suit both partners just fine or that it was deliberate.

Is there any solid proof that relationships were male led and not simply equal or the other way around? How does feminism know about personal relationships behind doors? Or is this just a femiclown theory to make men look bad?

The most obvious thing going in the other direction that I can say is that men were the financial slaves of women

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Post #: 34

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/14/2011 4:22:07 AM

CallaFirestormBW

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I actually received some mail on this subject just a couple of days ago, from someone wishing to have me "claim" them as "my right" as "supreme by being female" (in other words, female supremacy). I'll share the general gist of my response here, since it's the same one I use whenever the discussion about female supremacy, dominance, and feminism comes up.

I am a female. Being female is an accident of genetics. It affects certain biological functions, and impacts the way my body produces certain chemicals and such, and because of that, it probably -does- affect some of the ways in which I connect with the world around me. HOWEVER, my choice to express myself from the perspective of a "person of responsibility" or a "person in charge" is an act of WILL, and has nothing to do with being female. It isn't because women are better than men, or because women are "naturally superior" -- NOR is it because I have to "reclaim my right to be a women" or "get back at men who took the world away from me"... it is because -I- have chosen to stand up, take a leadership role, and embrace the responsibility that goes along with that role. To my mind, saying that I am dominant because I am -female- is almost insulting -- it completely dismisses the decisions that I had to make, the effort that I put out, and the process by which I came to the place where I am.

I believe that human beings should be able to rise on their merits, and based on the decisions that they make and the efforts that they put forth. To me, that doesn't have -anything- to do with gender, color, religion, political beliefs, or any of those things EXCEPT when it comes to how we USE those things to either stand up and take responsibility or try to shortcut or -skirt- responsibility in getting to where we want to be. So I consider the issue of "feminism" to have served its purpose when it brought to light the idea that women were more than just decorations for men to hang around their homes... but it does not now, nor has it -ever- made any difference in terms of individual women making decisions and then standing up to the work of making those things happen. The thing that made early suffragettes as impressive as they were wasn't that they were WOMEN -- it was that they were asking society to recognize them as HUMAN... with the same chance for obtaining their hopes, dreams, and recognition of their efforts that male humans got, at the time, just by being alive.

The sad thing is, we -still- don't get it. We are -still-, as a society and culture, trying to make our successes (or failures) dependent on things that just don't matter, like gender, race, religion, or social status.

I am a strong person. I am dedicated, pragmatic, ambitious, and responsible. My gender is a whim of the Universe. I am what I -CHOOSE- and what I act upon. For those who don't "get it" -- well, I am occasionally frustrated that there are still people who don't "get it"... but upset... nah, who has time to expend energy on people who can't figure out that it is the -action- that matters.

Calla

< Message edited by CallaFirestormBW -- 1/14/2011 4:26:28 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/16/2011 4:34:42 PM

kalikshama

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When I first began exploring BDSM 14 years ago, I was initially conflicted between my desires to submit and feminism. Happily, I quickly got over it. Given the definition below, I'm not sure what the source of the conflict was back then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SylvereApLeanan

Feminism factors into my views only insofar as I am a woman, I believe all women should have the freedom to choose her own life path rather than be considered chattel, should have the freedom to vote and make her own medical decisions including abortion without interference, and should receive equal pay/opportunities for promotion for equal work.

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Post #: 36

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/16/2011 5:04:30 PM

AquaticSub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThePeripatetic

So it sounds to me like their really isn't much interconnectivity between the two. I don't know why exactly but I just assumed that maybe there would be some kind of link there. I guess I have this image of a young woman having an 'Aha!' moment during an undergraduate sexualities class and then running out to purchase her first single-tail as a result. Forgive me if that sounds terribly naive! Just being honest here, these thoughts have crossed my mind from time to time...

In my experience not really. For one, that assumes that fem doms are somehow more feminist than femsubs. Which, IMHE, is just not the case. As I tend to be with a more liberal crowd, and therefore have a higher degree of radical feminists amidst them, of non-lifestyle friends, I find myself having to defend my right to have a male-led relationship to the people I'm overall agreeing with on the subject of equality.

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Post #: 37

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/16/2011 5:17:27 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtynick81

For the dommes who claim to be feminists and also claim to be into female supremacy really questions their motivations on being a feminist

OK, I'll bite. And I might as well repeat what I've said many times before: a feminist is someone who believes in freedom and equality. A female supremacist can't, therefore, be a feminist.

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Post #: 38

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/17/2011 2:37:20 AM

naughtynick81

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quote:

a feminist is someone who believes in freedom and equality

*cough* I am sure that's the case *cough*

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Post #: 39

RE: Feminism & BDSM - 1/17/2011 5:39:15 AM

kalikshama

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BDSM and Feminism
Tammy Jo Eckhart
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/sister/BDSM.html

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Post #: 40

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