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RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 12:05:41 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		FR

I don't suppose anybody wants to do the math and figure out what percentages of human history and planetary history these records apply to, do they? 130 years out of 10,000 for human civilization, 100,000 for hunter/gatherer ancestors, and 4 1/2 billion for the planet.



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That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 12:12:44 PM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10542
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

This thread is not about global warming, its about climate change.

Sorta like one would be laughed off the face of the earth for starting a thread called intelligent neo-cons. 

Incorrect.

The climate changes all of the time. Climate changes measured as being larger changes than in the past are an numerical indication that the atmosphere is getting warmer, i.e., larger storms and more frequent, larger storms and because a warmer atmosphere...holds more moisture.

Thus the world is in fact suffering more large floods and more large rain and snow storms not to mention, larger and more frequent hurricanes etc. But we will mention them anyway.

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RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 1:04:48 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As near as anyone can tell Gore has made nothing off AGW. He donates all proceeds from speeches and the like to charity.

And there are not thousands of scientists with expertise in climate science who disagree that AGW is happening. The number is more like a couple of dozen and they all have close ties to the fossil fuel industry.


Yeah, and those e-mails were ....."stolen" which I guess makes them,..."not true?" "True?"
I rest my case.

Multiple independent reviews found nothing untowards in those emails. If you think otherwise present the entire email of any you think provides evidence in support of your claims. I'll be happy to discuss it (note that means entire emails not carefully clipped excerpts you found on some right wing blog).

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RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 1:16:11 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I don't suppose anybody wants to do the math and figure out what percentages of human history and planetary history these records apply to, do they? 130 years out of 10,000 for human civilization, 100,000 for hunter/gatherer ancestors, and 4 1/2 billion for the planet.



The question isn't about whether the planet or life will survive but whether our civilization can. In that regard we have only had about 50k years where we lived across most of the planet. So this is the warmest worldwide climate we, as a species, have ever experienced and the warming shows no sign of slowing or stopping. As a matter of fact the warming appears to be accelerating.

For instance models indicate we should expect a global sea level rise during the next century of about 1/2 meter. How many people and how much vital infrastructure is within 1.5 feet of sea level?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 1:37:00 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As near as anyone can tell Gore has made nothing off AGW. He donates all proceeds from speeches and the like to charity.

And there are not thousands of scientists with expertise in climate science who disagree that AGW is happening. The number is more like a couple of dozen and they all have close ties to the fossil fuel industry.


Yeah, and those e-mails were ....."stolen" which I guess makes them,..."not true?" "True?"
I rest my case.

Multiple independent reviews found nothing untowards in those emails. If you think otherwise present the entire email of any you think provides evidence in support of your claims. I'll be happy to discuss it (note that means entire emails not carefully clipped excerpts you found on some right wing blog).



DomKen, no you won't, you just want to beat the subject to death for 50 or 60 hours.
And hiding any kind of information from the Press or the Public especially when Taxpayer dollars is involved is despicable.
You know, when I'm buying a car or truck and the salesman really starts putting the pressure on me I just step back.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 1:55:51 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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Status: offline
seems sad that you still believe in this hoax

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(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 2:02:39 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

That graph shouldn't be anywhere. It's a graph of the temperature differences that's labelled as a graph of temperature changes. That's just a slightly significant fuck up. The article is shitty too. 'worsening' 'fever'.

Should also note that this is just according to the new data source, the old (as in, the standard used by IPCC until 2007) is still showing 1998 as the warmest year.

Would also ask who the 'we' is in the OP. Americanisation of another subject? Us vs them?


Actually it is a graph of the yearly average temp graphed against the centuries average temp. It is an excellent visual representation of an upward trend that we should not be seeing. If it was a natural change the slope of the graph should be more or less linear and this has the unmistakable hallmark of a positive feedback situation.


Yeah a 130 year graph should be linear because in no other 2.9^-6% of the earths history has there ever been a similar trend.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 2:04:39 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: peacefulplace

[just as scientists predicted the intial effects of climate change would happen?



You mean just as they predicted after all of their other predictions failed, Im sure.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
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to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 2:06:32 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As near as anyone can tell Gore has made nothing off AGW. He donates all proceeds from speeches and the like to charity.



This has been disproven so many times on this board its ridiculous. NO ONE WITH HALF A FUCKING BRAIN BELIEVES THIS SHIT ANYMORE.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
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to the barking of the dogfox,
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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 2:07:57 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

FR

I don't suppose anybody wants to do the math and figure out what percentages of human history and planetary history these records apply to, do they? 130 years out of 10,000 for human civilization, 100,000 for hunter/gatherer ancestors, and 4 1/2 billion for the planet.




saw this after my 2.9^-6% post lol

And 2010 was by far the coldest of my 14 years in CA. It came a little to soon. After the CARB gets done doubling or tripling CA electricity costs based on bogus studies it would have been good to save on the air conditioning then.

< Message edited by willbeurdaddy -- 1/15/2011 2:10:22 PM >

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 2:13:56 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As near as anyone can tell Gore has made nothing off AGW. He donates all proceeds from speeches and the like to charity.

And there are not thousands of scientists with expertise in climate science who disagree that AGW is happening. The number is more like a couple of dozen and they all have close ties to the fossil fuel industry.


Yeah, and those e-mails were ....."stolen" which I guess makes them,..."not true?" "True?"
I rest my case.

Multiple independent reviews found nothing untowards in those emails. If you think otherwise present the entire email of any you think provides evidence in support of your claims. I'll be happy to discuss it (note that means entire emails not carefully clipped excerpts you found on some right wing blog).



Yeah, attempting to stifle the opportunity for critics to publish rebuttals is "nothing untoward". The mind boggles at how fucking stupid your posts on AGW are. Well, maybe not, considering your posts on any topic other than the ME.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:02:46 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		If a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, how destructive can a few statistics be? People here are representing themselves as authoritative on this subject and quoting a few stats. As though a few stats might be convincing on their own.

I don't pretend to be on top of the stats relating to climate change and global warming. We pay experts to develop that expertise for us. And there's no doubt that the overwhelming majority of those experts are all saying the same thing - that climate change and global warming are real.

Being unable to see the forest for the trees is one thing. Insisting that the forest can't be there because there are too many trees in the way to see it (as climate change deniers do) is just silly.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 1/15/2011 3:05:26 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:08:06 PM   
cuckoldmepls


Posts: 855
Joined: 11/29/2007
Status: offline 		You coulda fooled me. I've been freezing my ass off this year. By the way, it is a fact that this warming trend has been going on for hundreds if not thousands of years, since they have pictures from the 1800's of glaciers and mountaintops, and they retreating even before the mid 1900's. However, we certainly are contributing to it, and the concern should be that nature can't adapt that fast.

Plus, if you remember how warm it was during the age of the dinosours, that should confirm that we are simply returning to those same climate conditions. Then an asteroid will hit, and probably send us into another ice age.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:13:19 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

That graph shouldn't be anywhere. It's a graph of the temperature differences that's labelled as a graph of temperature changes. That's just a slightly significant fuck up. The article is shitty too. 'worsening' 'fever'.

Should also note that this is just according to the new data source, the old (as in, the standard used by IPCC until 2007) is still showing 1998 as the warmest year.

Would also ask who the 'we' is in the OP. Americanisation of another subject? Us vs them?


Actually it is a graph of the yearly average temp graphed against the centuries average temp. It is an excellent visual representation of an upward trend that we should not be seeing. If it was a natural change the slope of the graph should be more or less linear and this has the unmistakable hallmark of a positive feedback situation.


Yeah a 130 year graph should be linear because in no other 2.9^-6% of the earths history has there ever been a similar trend.

More likely than not. That's what we expect from such changes. For instance the much hyped Medieval Warm Period. The curve in question shows an accelerating rate of change. That looks to my trained eye like a positive feedback. If the slope continues to steepen then I'll be confirm but by then it will be far too late.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:20:34 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As near as anyone can tell Gore has made nothing off AGW. He donates all proceeds from speeches and the like to charity.

And there are not thousands of scientists with expertise in climate science who disagree that AGW is happening. The number is more like a couple of dozen and they all have close ties to the fossil fuel industry.


Yeah, and those e-mails were ....."stolen" which I guess makes them,..."not true?" "True?"
I rest my case.

Multiple independent reviews found nothing untowards in those emails. If you think otherwise present the entire email of any you think provides evidence in support of your claims. I'll be happy to discuss it (note that means entire emails not carefully clipped excerpts you found on some right wing blog).



Yeah, attempting to stifle the opportunity for critics to publish rebuttals is "nothing untoward". The mind boggles at how fucking stupid your posts on AGW are. Well, maybe not, considering your posts on any topic other than the ME.

I'm just trying to forestall silliness.

You see I know what emails the deniers will trot out, the trick email for instance, but they won't present the entire email in context but just the cherry picked quotes. Then I'll present the entire email which makes clear the "trick" is an entirely innocent use of additional data to allow the graph to show the modern era accurately. Then the deniers will deny that the additional data is valid and I'll be forced to explain why dendrochronology climate data is less accurate after the start of the indsutrial revolution which the deniers won't understand so they'll try and handwave it away. I'll then be forced to shoot down whatever nonsense they come up with next and so on.

If I make them come up with the entire email it least saves me some time. And you never know someone might actually investugate the matter and find all those investigations of the emails that all found the scientists had done nothing seriously wrong.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:24:15 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

As near as anyone can tell Gore has made nothing off AGW. He donates all proceeds from speeches and the like to charity.



This has been disproven so many times on this board its ridiculous. NO ONE WITH HALF A FUCKING BRAIN BELIEVES THIS SHIT ANYMORE.

You're saying he doesn't donate his speaking fees? Or will this be some halk baked assertion that he isn't allowed to invest his money where ever he sees fit?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:24:23 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		So I guess that means you aren't going to crunch those numbers for us, huh, Ken? That's right. You only like convenient numbers, and think "tricks" in the math to create scary graphs for public consumption are completely open and above board.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:39:00 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So I guess that means you aren't going to crunch those numbers for us, huh, Ken? That's right. You only like convenient numbers, and think "tricks" in the math to create scary graphs for public consumption are completely open and above board.

crunch which numbers? The data from the article the "trick" email is refering to? Would have to get the raw data.

However the point of the trick was the serious conflict between actual worldwide thermometer readings and global tree ring data for the last 50 odd years. The article used tree ring data for data prior to the existence of worldwide temperature data keeping. The two data sets match up very well prior to 1960 for as far back as we have geographically associated temperature data and tree ring data (about 100 years). So the article simply used the thermometer data after 1960 and the tree ring data prior.

Seems pretty awful, using accurate data and all. Should they be executed or should life in prison suffice?

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 3:46:29 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

So I guess that means you aren't going to crunch those numbers for us, huh, Ken? That's right. You only like convenient numbers, and think "tricks" in the math to create scary graphs for public consumption are completely open and above board.



Heretic, DomKen wants to "discuss" the e-mails now. He must think that he wrote them or something.
It doesn't really matter to him what they said he's (of course) going to try to put a "good" spin on them or at least try to defend them.
Boy, the GW's are always trying to "sell you" aren't they?
Those e-mails could have talked about chopping babie's heads off and the "GW's" would be saying things like, "Oh they were only talking rhetorically!"
If they don't know the people who wrote those letters/e-mails personally how can they try to tell people what they meant?
"Hey young man, you look like you need a brandnew car!"

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: 2010 The Hottest year On Record - 1/15/2011 4:48:21 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Would have to get the raw data.



Not to let you get away with your attempted hijack, Ken, but wasn't keeping that raw data from independent review one of the subjects of those emails? Wasn't a lot of it actually "thrown away?"

It's cool. You don't want to give us a percentage of the climate history that we have records for, against how much history there really is, that's your choice. It isn't like you have any credibility left to lose anyway.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.


(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 60
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