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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/17/2011 3:52:09 PM

DesFIP

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I would like to point out that you should not have any shame because you can't do this. Modern studies in neurobiology have proven that early trauma, such as this, cause lifelong changes in the brain. So you feeling ashamed for not being able to overcome this is equivalent to feeling ashamed because you can't flap your arms fast enough to fly. It may well be a physical inability, not in the mind alone, but in the brain.

So if you can't do this, then that needs to be accepted as a physical inability on both your parts.

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/17/2011 3:56:32 PM

NuevaVida

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

ok, point taken Its just that I know quite a few folks (outside of this lifestyle) who have such view points a la just to forget about it where it appears they have truly no clue what they are talking about (eg sometimes colleagues from a previous work place where we worked at times with abused kids)...so it depends how it is meant.

Oh I've seen it, and experienced it too, first hand. It's a completely ignorant attitude. I just didn't see that from the post, which shows how differently people can interpret the same words on a message board. No harm, no foul.

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/17/2011 4:14:05 PM

Prinsexx

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I quite like a good belting and think canes are far worse especially the thinnest ones. Single tail whips get a reaction in me much like the one you describe.
But a belt is just a belt. A cane is just a cane.
It's the person on the other end of it that I focus on. When I used to be in that 'loved-up-sub-space-blised-out frameless frame of mind it was like a drug that whisked me out so much it took the edge off any pain.

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/17/2011 10:32:44 PM

Idahobulldom

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My subbie had some apprehension regarding the use of a belt also. It sounds like you have a sensitive Master which is 80% of the solution. We have a phrase we use on areas that are hurdles or speed bumps - "baby steps" Nice and slow and a LOT of communication! It sounds like this speed bump is almost all mental and probably very little physical. And that is actually to your advantage. A lot easier to train the brain versus getting used to physical pain.

Best of luck in your adventure!

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Post #: 44

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/18/2011 7:10:02 AM

subsfaith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

ever heard about that having fear is a good thing to have?

I couldn't agree less to ignoring aspects which are bothering someone for reasons....and quite frankly when she was abused with a belt in younger life I don't consider it as appropriate to tell her "stop telling yourself that you have never enjoyed the belt being used" when it as a matter of fact was the case as she says.

That just reminds me on folks who tell people who survived abuse "to just forget about it" when quite frankly its not about shrugging it off or living in denial about it...but instead (at least in my view and experience) to learn to live with it and accept it as part of your life.

While some people are happy to give into their fears, I am not one of those people. I will rise to the challenge every single time, and I will support others to do so if they want me to. Let us not forget the OP came here to ask for suggestion... of which I gave her just one - self-conditioning, faking it until you make it, call it what you want.

So my advice stands. If the OP keeps reinforcing the notion that she doesnt like the belt, she will keep her dislike current. The moment she stops telling herself that she has the opportunity to change her mind, but not until then will there be any change.

I didn't suggest she ignore the issue, shrug it off or live in denial. I offered an pro-active solution that might help, so please do not twist my words to suit your agenda.

(in reply to Phoenixpower)

Post #: 45

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/18/2011 7:31:19 AM

CreativeDominant

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A couple of the male dominants on here have noted that they like using their belt and they've given their reasons. Much of what they said holds true for me also...

My belt is mine. That is the simplest explanation I can give. To go deeper...when I choose a belt, I do so based on many factors: is this belt for my dress slacks at the office/going out for the evening? Is this belt for my jeans? Can the belt work in both scenarios? Is the belt leather or is it woven cloth of some sort? Is this belt strictly for the clothes I wear when doing labor around the office/house/on my hot rods or bike? Do I like the looks of this belt? (I am not overly fond of the real highly polished belts that reflect everything...including smudges). Do I like the texture? The...what will this belt feel like being brought down on a backside...on a pussy...on tits? What is the heft of it? How does it fit my hand? Is it easy to maneuver or awkward in the swing of it? Finally...what will a submissive think when she looks at this belt? Then...what will she think when she looks at it and knows that I LIKE to occasionally use the belt during play?

(in reply to subsfaith)

Post #: 46

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/18/2011 1:25:36 PM

strut

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CD....possessive aren't we

< Message edited by strut -- 1/18/2011 1:29:11 PM >

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Post #: 47

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/18/2011 8:34:36 PM

MaamJay

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It's been clear to Me from the start, and clarified even more, that this is something vixen is CHOOSING to try to get over for herself as well as for her Master. I can well understand that it can feel like a dead weight to have a fear of something which is an everyday item dragging her down. I had the same thing about crops (and they're not something you see every day like a belt is). Didn't know why, was never hit with one (or anything else for that matter) but somewhere along the line I had this intense negative reaction towards crops. I am not saying it was anywhere near as deep-rooted as it would be in someone who has been abused repeatedly with one, not at all, but it was still something I wanted to be rid of as it's a bit of a pain when being active in the bdsm scene! Lots of people use crops ... there was even a Mistress Crop! Who was a very nice Lady, I just found it hard saying that name even. In the early days when I was playing online, I worried a few people when I freaked out at the mention of a crop, and I couldn't understand it Myself to explain it.

I was befriended when I first entered the scene by an experienced D/s couple who were running local workshops and parties, and after He saw My reaction to a crop once, He asked why. I said I didn't know why but it was bothering Me. He asked if I wanted to try to work through it and I said yes. Very like Nueva suggests, His first goal was to have Me touch it. Well in fact, the first goal became getting Me to LOOK at it for more than a second without averting My eyes! Once we got past that, then it was to touch it. Then to pick it up. All this took time, repeat visits, with plenty of time to mull it over in My head between times. Once I got that far, He had Me fondle it, even ultimately to kiss it. (That was tough!). Then ... and this blew My mind at the time ... to hit MYSELF with it. I gave Myself the feeblest slap LOL! But the point was made, twas not the implement itself, it was whoever held it that mattered. It was about this time that one night while in that half awake half asleep state I had a flashback to a horse race I had attended as a young girl. I'd not thought about it in ... oh ... nearly 40 years! I remembered seeing the jockey whose horse was coming second severely beating the horse, and I remember thinking, leave it alone you beast, it's doing the best it can! I had NO idea that had been embedded in My unconscious, but I am pretty sure that was the source of the problem. I was about 6 or 7 at the time, and I loved horses (though could never have one, I had ALL the pony books!). It obviously made a very deep impression on Me. Once I remembered that, dealing with a crop in a bdsm sense became a lot easier, and ultimately we got to Master J using it on Me, very gently at first, then harder. Strangely, I actually liked the sensation as long as I didn't think too hard about it being a crop ... and now I have one and enjoy using it.

Now vixen has a FAR deeper problem BUT in My experience, when someone decides it is time to get rid of baggage, then they are ready to do so, they just need supportive and thoughtful help. I see that as what her Master is trying to provide and I applaud Him for that. I would suggest though breaking it into more baby steps such as I just described with the crop, I think His first step has been a bit too big for her to jump. Maybe working through her touching it, being able to undo it and take it off Him etc would be good preludes to being hit with it. It's going to take a lot more time.

Best of luck both of you, I hope you can set yourself free from the trauma of the past.
Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/19/2011 3:04:49 AM

IronBear

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I agree with MJ here. My own comments and views were not bases on a BDSM senario with a hopefully caring and mayhap an empathic Dominant wielding the implement of fear, but what i was taught regarding hard interrogations and torture where no one gives a rip about long term issues simply because there is a good chance you have no long term life.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 1/19/2011 3:07:22 AM >

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/19/2011 9:43:38 AM

subinlife

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: subsfaith

quote:

ORIGINAL: LDVixen

I have never enjoyed the belt being used on me, it's an implement that scares the hell out of me...

What tips do you have for helping a person learn to accept if not entirely enjoy something they are not thrilled about?

Stop telling yourself that you have never enjoyed the belt being used, that it scares you, etc. While you keep telling yourself that it will be so.

Try reminding yourself of only the positive things... and if a negative creeps into your mind chase it away with positive though.

ever heard about that having fear is a good thing to have?

I couldn't agree less to ignoring aspects which are bothering someone for reasons....and quite frankly when she was abused with a belt in younger life I don't consider it as appropriate to tell her "stop telling yourself that you have never enjoyed the belt being used" when it as a matter of fact was the case as she says.

That just reminds me on folks who tell people who survived abuse "to just forget about it" when quite frankly its not about shrugging it off or living in denial about it...but instead (at least in my view and experience) to learn to live with it and accept it as part of your life.

This and what SirsHolly said.

You said it is a hard limit up front, it should have been left there. I haven't even read all of this thread yet, but the hard limit thing got me writting. Hard limits are just that, and they are for a reason. I also have a few hard limits that stem from abuse, someone telling me to get over it, gets gone.

ETA: if you have choosen to give up the hard limits, I wish you luck.

< Message edited by subinlife -- 1/19/2011 10:03:01 AM >

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/19/2011 10:00:39 AM

CeriseNin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1

It is funny, I love floggers but hate belts. There seems to be something abusive about belts and for that reason, I stay away from them. Could not advise on how to enjoy something like that; I just won't do it.

I agree, and funny enough ( or not) it's the reason I like the belt.

(in reply to sexyred1)

Post #: 51

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/20/2011 7:11:16 PM

Firebirdseeking

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One more vote in favor of Holly's comment. And, I might add, I get concerned with those who try to "help" someone get over a trauma. The fact is, that you are not trained therapists, and re-exposing someone to the emulations of a trauma, does not "get that person over it" - it re-traumatizes that person. Also, I believe a hard limit is a hard limit - if someone overrides our hard limits, I ask, with all due respect, what does that MEAN?

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 52

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/20/2011 7:17:47 PM

BeautyDebased

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Mindset,

You really need to be in the right mindset and relaxed, if I'm not relaxed and we use the whip...or rather, it's used on me, I get scared, it hurts more and I just don't enjoy it, if i'm relaxed and happy then i love it, i could be whipped for hours and still love it, even when it starts to hurt more, it's times like this I'm the one begging for more when he stops.

I'd maybe ask if he can start out slower, warm you up though he probably does this? maybe do something relaxing beforehand, something you can associate the belt with that in your mind will calm you, for me, I use the dimmer lights, the feel of the bedspread beneath my body, they relax me, the warm spa afterwards while Master strokes my hair, so when this play happens it's an entire scenario for me, one which puts me in a good place, you just need to find yours.

Edit: Just read it was a hard limit, in that case I don't know what to say...it shouldn't be happening if it was agreed upon that it was a limit of yours.

Beauty.

< Message edited by BeautyDebased -- 1/20/2011 7:21:33 PM >

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/22/2011 6:48:15 AM

SourandSweet

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Not sure if this is any help, but...

I'm a non-masochist with a pretty low pain threshhold; my dom is a sadist.

We find I can tolerate more if he builds up gradually, starting with relatively lighter 'blows', with his implement of choice, rather than starting at the top (as it were). This allows me to start to relax and reduces the fear I'm feeling.

Also, if he really feels it's getting too much for me he'll start elsewhere on my body, again building up.

This works for us, may not for you, but thought I'd share just in case :-)

(in reply to BeautyDebased)

Post #: 54

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/22/2011 10:57:39 AM

MalcolmNathaniel

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I see a couple of issues here.

One is that use of a belt was defined by LDVixen as a hard limit. That is no-go territory - period.

In this case the use of a belt on her goes beyond "safe, sane, consensual" on all three counts.

LDVixen: if ( and I accentuate the word "if") you want to try and work through your fear of it, yes, it is possible*. It will require a lot of communication. Care must be taken to not associate the vibrator with being whipped by a belt and not the other way around.

This doesn't require aversion therapy as many people have been mentioning. In fact it requires the polar opposite. Aversion therapy is applying unpleasant sensations to associate the bad feeling with the undesired behavior. A.K.A. "behavior modification through negative reinforcement." Those are just fancy phrases meaning "punishment."

What is needed here is positive reinforcement. Hugs and kisses after may go a long way, but not as much as verbal and physical during.

It will also need to be done slowly and carefully. I am not talking about the actual beating here (although that too,) I am talking about overcoming your fear. Being caressed by, and caressing, the belt may help as some have mentioned. Or even having it folded and nearby while you are doing other, more enjoyable activities. I am of the opinion that actual use of it needs to be postponed for a while until you and your Dom have a chance to talk about it in depth and you've had the time to get over your fear first.

*Any fear can be overcome. Just look at the subtitle for "Dr. Strangelove."

(in reply to SourandSweet)

Post #: 55

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/23/2011 9:58:46 AM

strangedesire

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From what I'm hearing in this thread, this is something you personally want and are willing to work towards. Getting over fear this deep is extremely hard, and it's not something that another person can drag you because he wants to see results. If you are personally committed to working on it, I think that you can probably learn to enjoy the belt as much as you enjoy similar types of pain. If you're motivated by shame and guilt, though, I think that you'll find it almost impossible.

From what I'm hearing, what's getting to you isn't the pain, as the pure impact of the belt probably doesn't hurt more than most other toys. You're getting caught in the fear. Using a vibrator won't be effective for this - it may distract you for a little while, but you'll have to deal with the underlying problem first.

I assume that people are talking about aversion therapy by mistake. The therapeutic technique that is standard with fear (in a Cognitive-Behavioral framework) is called either graduated exposure or systematic desensitization. If you have access to a kink-friendly therapist, they might be quite helpful with this. If not, David Burns has a (non kink-related) book called When Panic Attacks that is pretty good for dealing with fear of all types.

Disclaimer for what I'm about to talk about: I am not a licensed professional (yet). I have, however, studied this in a rigorous academic context, and I have used it under therapeutic supervision in my personal life with great success. There's a fair body of evidence suggesting it works for trauma as well, although for the bigger stuff you really, really want a therapist to work with you.

So, this is roughly how exposure treatment works:

First, you learn coping techniques. Deep breathing, progressive muscle relaxation, meditation. You won't be able to deep-breathe away the panic that comes with being hit with the belt, but if you practice you should be able to relax yourself when mildly or moderately anxious.

Next, they teach you to make a hierarchy of anxiety-provoking things, from least to most scary. You'll want to put as many steps in here as you can. It might look something like this:

seeing his belt hanging up or on a shelf
holding his belt in your hands
taking his belt off for him
watching him take his belt off slowly
watching him take his belt off quickly
seeing him walk towards you with a folded belt
popping the belt together yourself
hearing him pop the belt together
having him touch you with the belt, while you're standing up and looking at him
bending over and thinking about the belt
bending over while he strokes your ass with the belt
one light smack with the belt
several light smacks with the belt
one harder smack with the belt
several harder smacks with the belt

These may be in the wrong order. If snapping the belt is scarier than being touched with it, put that later.

The goal is to do the less-scary things until they stop being scary, so you can use them as a stepping stone to work on the scarier stuff. The time it takes to adjust to any particular step really varies - you might make it through three steps the first time you try it, but have to do the fourth one every day for weeks before it becomes easy to handle. It's a long, frustrating process.

From personal experience, you when you're working on this, you'll want to get yourself into a kind of "sweet spot" where you're somewhat anxious but not overwhelmed. What you're trying to do now is more like flooding. (Exposing a person to the thing they fear until they stop freaking out. Fast, but more likely to be traumatic, and sometimes the phobia comes back.) It doesn't seem to be working for you, maybe because you're trying to do too much too fast.

I really, really, really suggest making this "your project that he helps you with" rather than "something he does to you." This may be my personal bias, but I believe that we have to take control of our fear before we can give that vulnerable spot to someone else. Regardless, you need to be able to safeword when he pushes you too far or too close to panic. (Maybe you could use a special safeword for these kind of situations?) You're the only one that knows what's going on inside you, and if you let him retraumatize you in the name of submission, you're actually taking yourself farther from where he wants you to be.

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RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/23/2011 9:01:51 PM

MaamJay

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Great answer strangedesire ... you put the technical aspects to what I experienced and described! I hope it helps the OP and I thoroughly agree with you about it being "her project that he helps with" rather than his. Well put!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]

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Post #: 57

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/24/2011 6:38:02 AM

LDVixen

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I wanted to give one final answer on this thread. I thank everyone who gave insight, it was all helpful in some form.

When I agree to submission to a person (no kidnapping involved or being held against my will) I agree because I trust that person. I trust them to keep me safe, mentally as well as physically, because I know that when I am in sub space my pain tolerance can soar far beyond what my body can reasonably take. The person has to be intuitive enough to cause me pain, without causing permanent harm. They also have to possess the same ideas about SM that I have.

They have to be open to talking about what worked or didn't work, especially in the beginning. I understand that there are going to be things I dislike that they enjoy, so I will need to suck it up and allow it to happen. (Example-Having my tampon string tugged mortifies me, but it's done because I blush, and to make sure I keep my legs open.)

The belt is a hard limit because of the fear. He did not push the belt issue, I began to push it. I am the one who needs to slow down, I get impatient. I want things done now, right now, wave a magic wand and fix it.

Before anyone else says it, yeah, I get that my attitude is childlike. I think part of it is that I hate my mother has control over me, even now, years after, what she did to me has caused trouble in a relationship with a man I care deeply about. It's not a problem for HIM, he keeps reiterating "We do not need to play with the belt."

I work with feral cats and BLM donkeys/mustangs. I am not sure why I thought I could skip the steps with myself, when I would never move that fast with a wild critter. With them, baby steps, repeated day after day until they are comfortable with that step, then add the next. Add steps too fast and you go back to square one.

Whoops, I am going back to what I am comfortable with, then move on from there.

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Post #: 58

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/27/2011 12:25:06 PM

Chulain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LDVixen
I have never enjoyed the belt being used on me, it's an implement that scares the hell out of me, which probably makes it hurt worse. Sir enjoys using the belt. He understands my aversion to it, but he wants to get me used to taking it more often because using it on me pleases him.

[..]

What tips do you have for helping a person learn to accept if not entirely enjoy something they are not thrilled about?

My first inclination is to say "If you don't like it, don't do it." It is, after all, about mutual pleasure.

However, if you really want to do it because you know it will please him so much (and therefore please you because you enjoy pleasing him), I imagine going at it slowly would be the way to go. If he's just whipping out the belt and letting it fly knowing you're not so keen on it, he needs a good talking to (outside of any D/s trappings).

(in reply to LDVixen)

Post #: 59

RE: Can I learn to "enjoy" the belt? - 1/28/2011 4:03:40 AM

subsfaith

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I would like to point out that you should not have any shame because you can't do this. Modern studies in neurobiology have proven that early trauma, such as this, cause lifelong changes in the brain. So you feeling ashamed for not being able to overcome this is equivalent to feeling ashamed because you can't flap your arms fast enough to fly. It may well be a physical inability, not in the mind alone, but in the brain.

So if you can't do this, then that needs to be accepted as a physical inability on both your parts.

A really good point is made here, neuropsychology could be in play here and there really is no need to be ashamed.

However, I don't believe that the brain is so limited that trauma induced changes in hard wiring are unchangable.

The brain is so adaptable. Stroke victims can learn to walk, talk and feed themselves again, dyslexics can retrain the brain to understand common language, and aspergers sufferers can come to understand social situations. How? By hard work and training.

Stroke victims are given intensive physical and occupational therapy. Dyslexics have lots of tools available, like dictionaries in thier logic and memory techniques. And aspergers sufferers can be trained through role play of social situation. All have elements of contioning and repetitiveness.

I don't see any aversion that cannot be changed. We are born with fear of loud noises and falling, everything else is learned behaviour, the keys is to unlearn the behaviour we don't want.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 60

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