ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (Full Version)

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gonadGUY -> ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/1/2006 10:20:02 PM)

The following outlines what a foreigner must do to receive a guest worker permit (FM3) allowing him/her to work in Mexico. As a director with SouthWest Bell I spent five years working in Mexico. I worked under a tourist Visa for three months and could legally renew it for three more months. After that you were working illegally. I was technically illegal for three weeks waiting on the FM3 approval. During that six months our Mexican and US Attorneys were working to secure a permanent work visa called a FM3. It was in addition to my US passport that I had to show each time I entered and left the country. My wife, Barbara's was the same except hers did not permit her to work. To apply for the FM3 I needed to submit the following notarized originals (not copies) of my :

1. Birth certificate for Barbara and I. 2. Marriage certificate. 3. High school transcripts and proof of graduation. 4. College transcripts for every college I attended and proof of graduation. 5. Two letters of recommendation from supervisors I had worked for at least one year. 6. A letter from The ST. Louis Chief of Police indication I had no arrest record in the US and no outstanding warrants and was "a citizen in good standing." 7. Finally; I had to write a letter about myself that clearly stated why there was no Mexican Citizen with my skills and why my skills were important to Mexico. We called it our "I am the greatest person on Earth" letter. It was fun to write.

All of the above were in English that had to be translated into Spanish and be certified as legal translations and our signatures notarized. It produced a folder about 1.5 inches thick with English on the left side and Spanish on the right. Once they were completed Barbara and I spent about five hours accompanied by a Mexican Attorney touring Mexican Government office locations and being photographed and fingerprinted at least three times. At each location and we remember at least four locations we instructed on Mexican tax, labor, housing, and criminal law and that we were required to obey their laws or face the consequences. We could not protest any of the Governments actions or we would be committing a felony. We paid out four thousand dollars in fees and bribes to complete the process. When this was done we could legally bring in our household goods that were held by US customs in Laredo, Texas. This meant we had rented furniture in Mexico while awaiting our goods. There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid. We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law. We were required to get a Mexican drivers license. This was an amazing process. The company arranged for the Licensing agency to come to our Headquarters location with their photography and finger print equipment and the laminating machine. We showed our US license, were photographed and fingerprinted again and issued the license instantly after paying out a six dollar fee. We did not take a written or driving test and never received instructions on the rules of the road. Our only instruction was never give a policeman your license if stopped and asked. We were instructed to hold it against the inside window away from his grasp. If he got his hands on it you would have to pay ransom to get it back. We then had to pay and file Mexican income tax annually using the number of our FM3 as our ID number. The companies Mexican accountants did this for us and we just signed what they prepared. It was about twenty legal size pages annually. The FM 3 was good for three years and renewable for two more after paying more fees. Leaving the country meant turning in the FM3 and certifying we were leaving no debts behind and no outstanding legal affairs (warrants, tickets or liens) before our household goods were released to customs.

It was a real adventure and If any of our Senators or Congressman went through it once they would have a different attitude toward Mexico. The Mexican Government uses its vast military and police forces to keep its citizens intimidated and compliant. They never protest at their White house or government offices but do protest daily in front of the United States Embassy. The US embassy looks like a strongly reinforced fortress and during most protests the Mexican Military surround the block with their men standing shoulder to shoulder in full riot gear to protect the Embassy. These protests are never shown n US or Mexican TV. There is a large public park across the street where they do their protesting. Anything can cause a protest such as proposed law changes in California or Texas.

Please feel free to share this with everyone who thinks we are being hard on illegal Alliens.



Lordandmaster -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/1/2006 10:34:40 PM)

Gonadguy, whatever legal problems you may or may not have faced in Mexico have nothing to do with the illegal-immigrant problem in the U.S.



ArtCatDom -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/1/2006 10:59:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Gonadguy, whatever legal problems you may or may not have faced in Mexico have nothing to do with the illegal-immigrant problem in the U.S.


I think it's entirely relevant considering President Fox of Mexico is putting as much pressure as he can on the States to liberalize our immigration system. Goose and gander?

Mexico is a man in a glass house with a big pile of stones.

*meow*



Lordandmaster -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/1/2006 11:04:49 PM)

I don't think it would affect our immigration policies even if Mexico had the most tolerant attitude toward guest workers on earth.  One thing has nothing to do with the other.  Foreign workers in Mexico don't play the same role in the Mexican economy (or society) that foreign workers play in the U.S.

Don't get me wrong, I think "Un dia sin inmigrantes" was stupid and isn't going to accomplish much anyway.  But it's always disheartening to see people trying to reduce political problems to some wispy fragment of their own experience.  I'm sorry if he had legal troubles in Mexico, but, really, who gives a fuck?



UtopianRanger -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/1/2006 11:28:58 PM)

quote:

There were extensive fees involved here that the company paid. We could not buy a home and were required to rent at very high rates and under contract and compliance with Mexican law.


Amen brother! Loved your post. I too have spent an inordinate amount of time down in Mexico - I used to guide some whitewater trips in the Chiapas and inland Veracruz five or six years ago. And an old girlfriend and I were regulars at  ''Cabo Wabo'' every three or four months.

Boy would I have loved to buy a place in Veracruz {Beautiful-ass place - ''Romancing the stone'' was filmed right there}, but you can only lease and it's very hard to transfer assets if something happens.

I love Mexico and its people, but I'd like to shoot Fox and folks who run the Mexican goverment right in the back of the head. I encourege the Mexican people to grow some balls, join '' Marcos'' and overthrow their crapy goverment.


 - R



gonadGUY -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 1:23:06 AM)

Dear President Bush

I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.

I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.

So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over. Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. All government forms need to be printed in English.

4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.

5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flagpole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.

7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from
President Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my housetop, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.

13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that President Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.

However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.

Thank you so much for your kind help.



Dustyn -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 3:40:18 AM)

We aren't tough enough.



feastie -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 4:25:22 AM)

While I understand your reasons for posting your experience with Mexico, bear in mind that the problem here is not that of "guest workers."  These people have not attempted to come into our country in a legal fashion and have not gone through the hoops to become a "guest worker."  They simply had the arrogance to decide they were coming in, and they did.

Back in the 80's, I worked for an oilfield construction company.  Laying board road is hard and hot work and the only people we had willing to do it were illegals.  These people had social security numbers, but I'm sure they were obtained illegally, for reasons I'll illustrate in a moment.  They lived in homes that were converted to barracks, more or less.  The bedrooms and garages were filled with bunkbeds and little else.  Most of their money went back to Mexico.

One day, I arrived at work to find the crew trucks still standing in the yard.  I let myself into the office to the sound of the phone ringing.  My boss, telling me not to talk to the media.  Then the media.  There'd been a raid by INS and they'd scooped up our entire workforce.  We hired some young American men and on their first day of laying road, they were at the truck before lunch, ready to be taken back to the yard to go home.  The work was too hard and too hot for them to do.

Within two weeks, however, most of the illegals were back, new names, new social security numbers, but the same faces.  It was just that easy for them.

Are we hard enough on illegal aliens?  No, we're not.  Personally, I was not affected by the protests yesterday.  Not a blip on my personal radar at all. I feel they should have been rounded up yesterday, weeded out as legal and illegal and the employers of the illegals billed for the cost of deporting them.  The children of people who are here illegally should not be considered a natural born citizen.  Men who are illegal should not be allowed to enter our military and thereby gain their citizenship.

There is a procedure and a method for gaining entry to the United States for the reason of working.  It should be followed.  Period.  If life in Mexico is too difficult, if there is little work or little pay for work there, take on the Mexican government.  Protest against the Mexican government.  Do what you can do to change your life, legally.  Don't break the laws of my country and expect me to support you.   I steadfastly will not.  When I break a law, I have to pay the consequences.  So then, should you.



Lashra -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 4:38:42 AM)

Nope I dont think we are being hard on them. They want to become citizens (though alot of them do not they are only here to work and then plan to go back home to retire) they should go thru the appropriate channels.  They want all the benefits of being American without joining the club and getting their card, sorry in my book it don't work that way.

~Lashra



meatcleaver -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 4:50:06 AM)

It sounds like Mexico has just inherited bureaucracy from the Spanish and the US has inherited the abhorance of the Anglo-Saxons for bureaucracy and  the apparent malice and injustice is probably unintended. The Latin countries of Europe have endless similar red tape, it keeps people employed though stifles the economy. That is my take. I don't think it has anything to do with immigration. We have the same parallels in Europe.



MasterRenegade77 -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 12:22:24 PM)

Hell no We're not to hard on them... The Operative word in Illegal Immigrants is "ILLEGAL"
It pisses Me off to see these marches & marchers thumbing their noses at us on our own soil
"DEMANDING"
"Not asking but Demanding" rights & services in our country before "LEGAL" Immigrants & even depriving our own "Citizens" from these same services...
I agree Make it a FELONY to be in our country illegally no matter where they're from... If your visa has expired & you're still here W/out a Waiver You're a Felon...If you're aiding someone sneaking in or staying here You're a FELON, if you're employing someone ILLEGALLY you're a FELON, you should be arrested, you ass put in Jail &  your Assets Seized...ETC ETC
The one thing I agree with that the immigrants say is that We think we're all to High & Mighty to do the work they do & for the wages they accept... I think if businesses were required to pay our own people fair wages for those jobs,  America would be a whole lot better place!!!!!!
When I was young I was taught that even a  sewer worker or garbage collector deserved respect because he was a worker...
Today we have Many folks that are unemployed because they're to good to do menial work, they think that they're automatically entitled to being taken care of!!!
I think we should send "ILLEGAL" aliens back home & start taking care of our own "FIRST" !!!
Otherwise I'm sorry to say I see America going down the Shitter!!!



MstrssSatin -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 12:38:01 PM)

I'm joining the "no we are not hard on illegal aliens" on this one. They are not immigrants and they are not guests. They invited themselves and they entered without the proper paperwork and that makes them criminals. It annoys me that the media keeps making this an immigration issue. It is NOT an immigration issue. It is an illegal alien issue. Yes my ancestors were immigrants as were many who posts here. But ours entered this country legally, with the proper paperwork and in broad daylight.

Mistress Satin



MistressDREAD -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 1:03:25 PM)


I wish I had been born in Mexico instead of the West Indies and had a ocean that kept Me and My family and all the other islanders out of the USA untill visas can be obtained for Us to enter legally which is taking longer then 6 years now. (hindsite is like dreams) I wish that when any people from the islands that came to the USA by way of floatilla were given the same turned blind eye that mexicans are given when crossing the boarders to gain US funds to spend at home and tempt to gain citizenship without going thru the processes put in place to protect the Americas. (WOW I am amazed that a people from any other country who comes here illegally would have the balls to even ask for rights in said country!)  If mexicans were flown home in the same manner as are haitians, cubans, jamaicans, barbadians and other islands folk there wouldent be any issue of the illigals.

Hard on illegals ? Heres a goodie, Our Government wont drill off the coast of the keys in florida to stave off enviromentalists for oil to assits the country in becoming energy free from the dependance of other countrys even tho there is told to be a rather large reserve of underwater oil in the basin, only to lose the oil to who ever is the first to drill in the area where Cuba has come to an agreement with china to allow them to drill off of the coast of their island within their international waters for all the oil there thats within 70 miles of the florida keys. Now does it not erk people that We have a resource of oil that could be equal to whats gained from alaska at our front door and we are going to let another country sell it away to a gobbler of a country like china who is flooding the world with oil deals to provide its people with the needed oil.

In My Emmigrant American opinion illegal aliens should be captured and put in prision until they can be deported back to their country to go thru the rightful process of emmigration. If a person comes here illegally they should not be allowed any service that an American can use and go thru the process and the years that it took all of Us who followed the rules and laws to get here and deserve the services above them and below Born Americans. Illegals should not be rewarded for having children in America but not allow the children to be filed as American if from an illegal in order to find a loophole to be allowed to stay here, and this is just one sample of many ways illegals gain rights to stay after getting here by wrong ways or by breaking the law of this land. There are enough Americans here who seek children to raise. Give the illegal a choice to give up the child for adoption as American with Americans or take it back with them and file their birth papers in their own country.Give an American family the child and deport the illegal alien. Force people to do right and not reward their wrong actions and they will do things right. Simple. I learned that as a child. I wonder if anyone else did in the world today...............Oh yea and one more thing........... There is a very VERY big differance in Us Emmigrants and the Illegal Aliens. It really PISSED ME OFF to listen to news broadcasters calling Illegals,  EMMIGRANTS! gggggggggrrrrrrrrrrr We are two different and completely DIFFERENT Folks. One obeys the laws and the others dont, and it slaps the face of those of Us who came here by legal means and obey the rules, laws, duty and live accordingly.



liks2plzlf -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 1:19:10 PM)

Hi Mistress Dread   I agree with you for the most part, but I am really intrested in the Cuba, China deal. May I ask where you got that information from. I write to my congressman often, and info on that would be something i would definetely complain about. All to often things are going on that most of the population are unaware of.  Greatly appreciate the opinion of a true immigrant



nikaa -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 1:23:36 PM)

A spokes person for the orginized marches today said that the U.S would crumble economicly if all the illegal aliens where no longer part of the society.
 
I'm sorry I don't think we are hard enough.
I lived in a part of California where speaking spanish was required for MOST jobs. Where we competed for work with people who where there illegally for jobs and this did affect many people.

I get upset watching these marches, people thumbing their nose at the laws of the country they supposedly want to be part of. IF you want to be part of this country do it right. Go through the proper channels, get your papers, pay taxes, take part as a citizen. That means following the laws of the land not that laws that are convient for you.
 
Nika{Phoenix}



MistressDREAD -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 1:53:40 PM)


liks2plzlf
I heard it first on the Government channel on Our tellie while the issue was being discussed by Kennedy
to Congress about this large wrong that would of made His brother turn over in His grave.  Then went to
get more info by listening to Cuban Politics on the Cuban channel thru the Islands news channel online
to verify that what I had heard was true as it discusted Me to hear about this issue knowing whats going
on here in the US. (Type into the address line cuba local news or jamaica local news or simalar.) I also
get My news in the same manner from other countries that the US never reports on in those lands thats
close up to the US but never hear news about the goings on there and channels of My Islands of birth.
I find it interesting that the US doesent add to their news the information that goes on in the countries
that surround the country but of course You will hear nightly of those who live half way around the
world about whats going on. Of course I found it of great interest as well that the USA schooled Castro
completely because His family couldent afford to school Him in Cuba. In essance the USA created a person
like Castro to create a communist country between two lands that are free, in a land that was not
communist befor His take over.  FYI. Politics and their realities are so utterly enraging to Me.



MsMacComb -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 3:24:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MstrssSatin

I'm joining the "no we are not hard on illegal aliens" on this one. They are not immigrants and they are not guests. They invited themselves and they entered without the proper paperwork and that makes them criminals. It annoys me that the media keeps making this an immigration issue. It is NOT an immigration issue. It is an illegal alien issue. Yes my ancestors were immigrants as were many who posts here. But ours entered this country legally, with the proper paperwork and in broad daylight.Mistress Satin
 

im·mi·grant  [image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/t/pron.jpg[/image]  ([image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gif[/image]m[image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/prime.gif[/image][image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gif[/image]-gr[image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/schwa.gif[/image]nt) KEY  

NOUN:

  1. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.
  2. A plant or animal that establishes itself in an area where it previously did not exist.



MistressDREAD -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 3:33:27 PM)

quote:

im·mi·grant  [image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/t/pron.jpg[/image]  ([image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gif[/image]m[image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/prime.gif[/image][image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/ibreve.gif[/image]-gr[image]http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/edu/ref/ahd/s/schwa.gif[/image]nt) KEY  

NOUN:
  1. A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.

  2. A plant or animal that establishes itself in an area where it previously did not exist.

em·i·grant   [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/image] ( P )  Pronunciation Key  ([image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gif[/image]m[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif[/image]-gr[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]nt)
n.

One or persons that emigrates.
Of or relating to emigrants or the act of emigrating people.
~winks~



MsMacComb -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 7:50:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

em·i·grant   [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/image] ( P )  Pronunciation Key  ([image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gif[/image]m[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif[/image]-gr[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/image]nt)
n.

One or persons that emigrates.
Of or relating to emigrants or the act of emigrating people.
~winks~
 

My posting a definition was not directed to you. Someone else stated that these people are not "immigrants" based on the fact that they are not legal. They are immigrants (or emigrants),  regardless if they are legal or not. [&:]



MistressDREAD -> RE: ARE WE BEING HARD ON ILLEGAL ALIENS ? (5/2/2006 8:04:19 PM)

quote:

I know.
[:D]♥~kiss~♥ [;)]



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