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RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 4:38:41 PM

sophia37

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I am so sorry Im poster number 12 thousand 62 for thiis thread. I doubt too many people will read me this way. I know I havent scrolled all the way thru it myself. But here goes.

I guess what suprsies me is how much credit youre all giving the genral public. Like us Vanilla people have a clue as to why someones wearing a collar and leading someone else around.

Us vanilla's offended? More likely amused. While we may not be singing the, "It's just too good to be true song" we are most likely doing the, "cant take my eyes offa you!" And thats about it.

If a kid asks us what gives, most likely we'd tell a kid, "I dont know, why dont you go ask them!" Or, "I dont know, they're just fooling around". I certainly dont have a high discomfort level when talking to kids about the unusual. And I think Im a pretty common person. I certainly wouldnt think it was sexual. The only place I'd learn that would be, say, on this site! LOL

I find most "regular" people have become emotionally immune to things like other peoples clothing. Ok, maybe one or two cops with kinks of their own are around, who go ballistic for whatever reason. But I'm willing to bet its illegal to toss someone from a mall for wearing a collar with a lead. It would have to be in some rule book. And civil liberties may have been stepped on here.

As a matter of fact, I'd say in America right now you'd be safer from the cops wearing a collar and a leash than you would be wearing burka and wandering around with dark skinned men with accents in the mall. For sure.

(in reply to crouchingtigress)

Post #: 221

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 4:43:14 PM

truesub4u

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not my views... thoughts.. or concerns... just this post... voicing ones thoughts...and opinions.. is one thing.. but the cramming down the throat... is getting boring... thanks yall for letting me take this debate to the table...

< Message edited by truesub4u -- 5/6/2006 4:45:00 PM >

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Post #: 222

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 7:01:06 PM

Sub03

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I havent read through this whole thread yet but if i seen that at a mall it personally wouldnt bother me. As nothing was really happening as far as i understand. I wear my collar 24/7 and if someone asked me to leave somewhere because they didnt like me wearing it i wouldnt leave quietly. As long as its legal if you dont like what someone is doing or wearing then look away, easy as that in my opinion. I hate it when people judge others because of what they are wearing.

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RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 7:05:44 PM

truesub4u

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I sometimes wonder sub03... if they're offended by what they see... or offended... because of lack of knowing or understanding....

Nice to see you again too gal... been awhile...

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Post #: 224

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 8:19:22 PM

Chaingang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
If our sexual preference is not what we are standing up for... then what right is it that needs protecting at the mall?

The right of expression, to say: "I have the type of relationship that is symbolized by wearing a collar and tether." The members of the vanilla world are constantly broadcasting: "I have the type of relationship that is symbolized by the wearing of wedding rings."

Why the difference?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
As a society we do have to accept that everyone has their own view of what is right and wrong, and we do make room for everyone's way of life. Some of this room is in prisons around the world. Everything everyone wants to do is not okay. Having the right to live your life as you see fit is always an option, until it infringes upon the rights of others.

Good try, but not quite right. Sadly, the legal ideal has been muddied by people that think they can legislate morality in contradiction to what is plainly stated in the U.S. Constitution given the ideal of separation of church and state. So, in fairness, I can see why it's not perfectly clear to everyone. And anyway, I think you are trying to restate what I already said. Go back to the Holmes quote if it helps.

The social contract basically stipulates that we stand united against what are called "common law crimes." The basic crimes of the common law would be theft, rape, and murder - or subset variants of those three main headings like fraud, sexual harassment, and assault. Like that. But however you want to dice it up, it's basically a restatement of the idea of: "What you do not want others to do to you, do not do unto others." To nail it down, I'll put it this way: I don't want people to murder me, so I don't murder anyone else. Fair is fair.

An individual's rights have never extended to hurting others. That's what prisons are for, not as houses for alternative lifestyles in opposition to the social contract as stated by the U.S. Constitution. That's kind of absurd thinking there.

But if all I am doing is say wearing a wizard hat or a dog collar, how am I hurting anyone else? You might argue psychological or moral harm, but that's really a wild stretch and contradicts freedom of expression, freedom of religions, etc. You don't have the right to be free from seeing me wear a wizard hat or a dog collar, simple as that - just as I cannot tell you to take off that crucifix or wedding band. Fair is fair.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf1020
Prop, that is why I said several times reasonable average person. If someone is doing something that would offend a reasonable average person that visits their business they have every right to kick you out.

Not in California and not probably in many other places - it could be fought in a court of law. You act like this is a settled issue and it's not. It used be settled, in general opposition to what you are stating. It's been reversed, but places like California have case law that rejects the most recent ruling of the SCOTUS on the issue. So in California, where I live, you would be flat out wrong!

One thing that would help in discussing this issue is to distinguish between spaces that are merely private property and places that operate as a substitute for the traditional town square. So whereas you probably can't go into Walmart and spout anti-Walmart rhetoric and hand out literature in support of your views; you could probably do so in an adjacent space if the Walmart was connected to a mall that had spaces that served the functional social equivalent of a town square and you were in that adjacent space.

For background on the mall as public space for free speech see:
"Assembly on Private Property"
http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/assembly/topic.aspx?topic=private_property

Part of what muddies the issue is the reversal/reconsideration of standing law (aka stare decisis). Because the U.S. Supreme Court is sadly just as susceptible to political pressures as is any other branch of government; so, the issue can now be seen to swing a bit like a pendulum. I AM NOT A LAWYER, but I'd say that the right to freedom of expression exists even in a private property space, esp if it is a mall. I'm in California so I'm covered by case law. Many other states have yet to revisit the issue for themselves or have reversed as did the SCOTUS. The problem is going to be that society is actually moving away from public spaces that are entirely neutral zones for social expression and moving into private property spaces for the same thing. I can easily think of cities where there is a mall but no town square - shouldn't freedom of expression then be recognized in the private space that serves the public social purpose of a town square? Anyway, the issue is hardly settled - but I personally think time will prove out an individual right to expression in a private space even for people in other states. YMMV.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 5/6/2006 9:11:23 PM >

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Post #: 225

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 10:16:57 PM

MistressLorelei

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
If our sexual preference is not what we are standing up for... then what right is it that needs protecting at the mall?

The right of expression, to say: "I have the type of relationship that is symbolized by wearing a collar and tether." The members of the vanilla world are constantly broadcasting: "I have the type of relationship that is symbolized by the wearing of wedding rings."

Why the difference?

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei
As a society we do have to accept that everyone has their own view of what is right and wrong, and we do make room for everyone's way of life. Some of this room is in prisons around the world. Everything everyone wants to do is not okay. Having the right to live your life as you see fit is always an option, until it infringes upon the rights of others.

Good try, but not quite right. Sadly, the legal ideal has been muddied by people that think they can legislate morality in contradiction to what is plainly stated in the U.S. Constitution given the ideal of separation of church and state. So, in fairness, I can see why it's not perfectly clear to everyone. And anyway, I think you are trying to restate what I already said. Go back to the Holmes quote if it helps.

The social contract basically stipulates that we stand united against what are called "common law crimes." The basic crimes of the common law would be theft, rape, and murder - or subset variants of those three main headings like fraud, sexual harassment, and assault. Like that. But however you want to dice it up, it's basically a restatement of the idea of: "What you do not want others to do to you, do not do unto others." To nail it down, I'll put it this way: I don't want people to murder me, so I don't murder anyone else. Fair is fair.

An individual's rights have never extended to hurting others. That's what prisons are for, not as houses for alternative lifestyles in opposition to the social contract as stated by the U.S. Constitution. That's kind of absurd thinking there.

But if all I am doing is say wearing a wizard hat or a dog collar, how am I hurting anyone else? You might argue psychological or moral harm, but that's really a wild stretch and contradicts freedom of expression, freedom of religions, etc. You don't have the right to be free from seeing me wear a wizard hat or a dog collar, simple as that - just as I cannot tell you to take off that crucifix or wedding band. Fair is fair.

In response to your post which addressed my comments, and then I will be done as this seems so pointless, but children don't have a voice in such situations, so I am passionate about my views

By your definition, I could drag a slave around by the hair in the mall and expect no one to think I should leave. It's not a collar or wedding ring which is the problem, it's the appearance of dehuminization and degradation publicly of one human on another. It's okay to teach our children we tolerate one person treating another like a common animal? We have so little common sense that we must in the eyes of our children. devalue other human beings, and then say we have a right to treat our slave accordingly. How do we explain to our kids that not all slaves have freedom?

The significance of a wedding bang, or a collar is fine... it's someone wearing something individually... but it's the leash connecting two individuals that generally sparks contraversy... as allowing such an act, indicates we approve of one person "harming" another and that we approve of one person taking the rights of another to freely wander the mall. Wouldn't the patrons of a mall think that the rights of the leashed slave should be protected? We can't have it both ways.

If a segment of "lifestylers" pops up and decides to symbolize their unions or express themselves by hair pulling, gagging, bondage, etc... we allow for that as well in our malls? It's one act towards another that tears at our moral fiber... not one person wearing a wizard hat.

I respect a person in the lifestyle's right to walk her/his slave.... but I also respect others and the society I live in, and luckily most of us have the common sense to walk our slaves on a leash in private. When our rights to do so privately are being threatened, that's a whole different story.

I have a child... perhaps most who have one as well, will not want the rights to public displays of kink to override the rights of a kid to go to the mall without having to learn why it's really okay for a man to treat his girlfriend like an animal... afterall she's just a slave.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 226

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 11:37:25 PM

Chaingang

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To me you are specifically confusing situations that are entirely symbolic in presentation with those that by outsiders could easily be viewed as types of assault - so those two kinds of activities really aren't very analogous in my view. The OP never mentioned any particular acts on the part of the people standing in their collar and leads, they were just there. No overt sexual or scene activity was on display.

I personally don't see the need to protect children from expressions of intimacy, whatever form they may take. You see a man leading a woman by a leash. Your child asks you why that is happening. You explain that it's just a way of symbolizing that the two people like each other and are a couple. End of story. This is just as when you see people in a hurry, sometimes the man seems to be leading the woman by the hand.

Edit: You know, you could take this further and explain that it's do with adult sexual play. I can't see why it's out of the way to explain to a child quite early on that adults do things that children don't have to fully understand. Part of that adult play is symbolic presentations that tell others that people are together, some might be sex behind closed doors. That people love each other or show affection physically seems like a very normal thing to tell a child, after all we kiss and hug our children too - just for a slightly different reason. We show similar affection when we pet cats or dogs. Children get that stuff, I think.

What's the hubbub? Answer: none.

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 5/6/2006 11:46:02 PM >

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Post #: 227

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/6/2006 11:53:07 PM

Calandra

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I wonder what the security guard (or Mall management) would have done if onlookers had respectfully stepped up and expressed that they had no problem with the leashes, and asked why the guard did?

My slave wears his collar (brown leather with silver studs) EVERYWHERE.
He has specific instructions should anyone show interest/curiosity in the collar or the fact that he addresses me as Mystress.

The first thing he is to do is ask them "Do you want an honest answer to your question?" This allows someone time to ponder whether they asked on impulse or out of genuine interest. It is also a polite way to give the person a "way out" if they wish it.

If they say "yes" then He is to say "It is a symbol of my love and respect for the woman I serve." And depending on whether the person is openminded, he can answer follow-up questions if he's comfortable doing so.

I think I will take him out on a leash in the future... and god help "security" if I ever witness someone else being discriminated against based on gender, sexuality, lifestyle, etc and I can speak up to them...

(in reply to Vancouver_cinful)

Post #: 228

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/7/2006 12:52:41 AM

MistressLorelei

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I'm still passionate....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

To me you are specifically confusing situations that are entirely symbolic in presentation with those that by outsiders could easily be viewed as types of assault
- so those two kinds of activities really aren't very analogous in my view.

The leashing of another can be viewed in the same manner to outsiders as a battery offense on another.

quote:

The OP never mentioned any particular acts on the part of the people standing in their collar and leads, they were just there. No overt sexual or scene activity was on display.

OP said they walked in on leashes and leashes were removed when seated.... Others must have viewed the act of one human walking another in a public place as more than just there.

quote:

I personally don't see the need to protect children from expressions of intimacy, whatever form they may take. You see a man leading a woman by a leash. Your child asks you why that is happening. You explain that it's just a way of symbolizing that the two people like each other and are a couple. End of story. This is just as when you see people in a hurry, sometimes the man seems to be leading the woman by the hand.

My guess is, you must not have children... Being exposed to intimacy in whatever form is okay? There are reasons why minors are not allowed on sites such as this.... we protect them from things which are potentially harmful... even when the potential harm is emotional and not physical.

I have played publicly (and Calandra I see a collar on an individual in public differently than one person leading another via a leash... it's the mix of doing unto another that seems the issue)... I am not condemning it, but there are ways to play publicly which don't infringe on the reasonable rights of others. When your freedom infringes on my freedom, there really is no freedom at all.

I appreciate the thoughtful debate.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 229

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/7/2006 1:44:21 AM

Vancouver_cinful

Posts: 1911
Joined: 2/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truesub4u

not my views... thoughts.. or concerns... just this post... voicing ones thoughts...and opinions.. is one thing.. but the cramming down the throat... is getting boring... thanks yall for letting me take this debate to the table...

All right, True, I'll walk away with you.

Thanks for starting this thread. I must say my resolve on this issue has only been strengthened after hearing how people justified the guard's harrassment of these peaceful citizens.

It's a shame that some people in the lifestyle aren't supportive of those who are willing to take a hit to further public consciousness about our right to love how we wish, as well as who we wish. It's a sad sort of shortsightnessness, all too common in humans.

Cin

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Post #: 230

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/7/2006 2:22:29 AM

brightspot

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In reply to the OP; I have worn a collar out in public and have displayed
submissiveness such as letting Her order for me, doing the grocery packing,
taking direct orders etc. But have not and would not display my way of life in an
flamboyant way as on a leash or all in leather and fishnets, that is outside of the clubs and parties anyway.

I am not one to hide my preferences though, when I have been out with my former
Domina and/or lovers I am sure other lifestylers would not have a hard time identifying us. I don't hide my lesbiamism either, I feel comfortable most places holding hands acting affectionately, or calling out "Honey", "Sweetie" or being called "baby" but then again I am mostly out in the big cities. Still too when we were on the road we would stop at smaller places and still were not into hiding who we were. We may have gotten some looks, but never harrassed.

I can see the behavior you described as a bit out of line for a mall, I mean why not take it to a more acceptable arena either a particular part of town or the clubs. I am just wondering did these people look of age?
I can see the younger generation more likely to bring it to the mall and push the envelope bringing attention to themselves and getting upset when asked to tone it down or leave the mall. But I think also 'right on' for the courageous acts of youth where change takes it's baby steps

.

*Brightspot

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Post #: 231

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/7/2006 2:39:32 AM

Phoenixandnika

Posts: 748
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From: Aberdeen Maryland
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Thank you for the topic.
I think it is something that alot of people do not think about until they are faced with the situation.This thread did make me wonder though. Do people really think that if they say something repeatively it will change someone elses opinion?Or is simply a desire / battle to "justify" their opinion?

Blessed Be,
Phoenix's Nika

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Post #: 232

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/7/2006 4:58:22 AM

Chaingang

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Phoenixandnika:
Some of it is repeating stuff, some is refining the argument.

MistressLorelei:
I don't have kids, but I have never hidden anything about who I am to anyone in my social circles. When my nephew and niece were just kids I would walk around my brother's house wearing bondage t-shirts (mostly Eric Stanton stuff), R. Crumb's Tommy Toilet design, and even a black t-shirt with the word "FUCK" printed on it. No one seemed to mind, I tried to answer the kids questions generically and all of these years later they seem perfectly fine: 4.0 at their local Christian school (the selection of schools was over my protests, but at least I seemed to have talked them out of the madness of "intelligent design"). I even brought my submissive girlfriend to the house with me a few times, no one said shit despite the collar she wore. I didn't have to explain that she was my girl and that we liked each other or what we did in private. Personally, I think kids understand far more about sex than most people seem willing to accept.

If I was ever asked in a public space what the black FUCK shirt meant I would simply turn around and show the backside which read "Endangered Species Productions" which was the business name of some acquaintances of mine in Los Angeles - they also happened to be 3 gay men, 2 of whom have already died of AIDS. So then I'd turn back around and say, "We must fuck while we may for tomorrow we die. Some of my friends are already dead. This shirt honors them." That series of statements usually shuts people up.

Yeah, like some schmuck is going to talk me out of a t-shirt I wear to honor my dead friends...

< Message edited by Chaingang -- 5/7/2006 5:00:11 AM >

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Post #: 233

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/7/2006 5:18:35 AM

OnyxGoddess

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I've read all the posts on this and thought about it when i was at the mall the other day. I saw a slew of persons that didnt meet the abercrombie and fitch good clean cut all american stereo type. I saw parachute pants, pants with chains, spiked collars, collars with leashes attached to belt loops, hair of all shapes colors lengths, stilletos, leather, spandex (oh god i thought that went out years ago), goth make up, 70's make up (u know that bright blue eyeshadow n stuff), i even saw a woman with a netted top and a bandeau top covering her breasts. All I could think of was...thank God for freedom and toleration. Wish it existed everywhere. I made no assumptions about who was goth/ who was bdsm/who was whatever ....i just enjoyed the fact that they were happy in whatever it was they were wearing or doing and that the mall security wasn't hounding them for being different.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 234

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/8/2006 6:02:51 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
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We did a "bad thing" this weekend.

It was DC LeatherFest and we wanted to go to the social/vending on Sunday. I wore my leather collette corset, with black jeans, boots and a collar, and my two other partners wore all black as well.

We went to the social and hung out for awhile but didn't see anything very intriguing so, after about an hour, we left.

We didn't feel like going home yet so we decided to go to the movies together- at a vanilla mall. We walked around the stores a bit and then went to the movies.

Nothing happened- other than a few looks and giggles. We weren't trying to make a stand, we weren't trying to show off, we'd simply decided we wanted to walk the mall and go to the movies.

I don't really think I did anything wrong.

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Post #: 235

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/8/2006 6:44:02 AM

GddssBella

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G'morning all:

*chuckling* I've skimmed this topic over the last few days. I'm just amazed how much controversy it's generated. While many wouldn't bat an eye over clothing choices, they get up in arms about a silly leash.

Come on folks, let's lighten up. It's all about interpretation. A leash is NOT a public scene. It's not beating someone physically on the street, which is legally viewed as assault. Done with a toy of choice, it constitutes assault and battery. We're discussing a fashion accessory or symbol. If you want to use the child safety/morality issue, then I think the parents need to do their jobs a tad bit better and assume more responsibility about taking an active role in policing their offspring. Got to love those voluntary control devices such as the V-chip or administrative accounts for computers. Use them. Stop making everyone else accountable for your lack of interaction with your kids.

I'm saddened by the prevailing attitude that folks are so ready to roll over and surrender even more of their First Amendment rights. Meekly sitting by and allowing the majority to strip you of your freedom of expression is empowering them over you. The parties in question decided discretion was the best part of valor and complied with the directives. Personally, I would've insisted on the guard contacting his superior officer and quietly demanding an explanation to his subordinate's actions.

Thanks to Chaingang for the enlightening link.

Stay safe, play nice, & share your toys w/ others...

Bella

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Post #: 236

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/9/2006 3:33:19 PM

bignipples2share

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< painting shirt to read,: Every Saturday, I get fucked in the ass, Every Sunday, I fuck in missionary position, but don't worry, this isn't sexual because I'm not having sex right now and getting fucked in the ass on Saturdays is never about sex, it's only a power thang. And Sundays are just to let all you vanilla folks know I can still be vanilla at times, so I'm not whacko.

Gonna be all mall ready

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Post #: 237

RE: Discrimination in Public Places.... - 5/9/2006 3:59:07 PM

nicochan

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Joined: 5/19/2005
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What about guys that have to hold their pants up and show you their baby blue tighty underwear and part of the thigh by walking in front of you?
/actually happened
//ewww
///sorry for the pseudo-threadjack :3

(in reply to Proprietrix)

Post #: 238

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