RE: no limits period

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Chulain -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:32:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl I did agree, from the time we changed from D/s to 24/7 M/s, that I would be allowed no limits and that this relationship would not end unless he ended it. I cannot withdraw consent, or leave. You cannot? And what happens if you do? What is his remedy? Can he sue you for breach of contract? No, because the subject matter of a valid contract (in the countries most of us come from) cannot be illegal. Whatever limits you have you choose to accept and you can withdraw that acceptance at any time. You might be disinclined to do so, but you cannot reasonably say "I would never say no to him" because no one knows for sure what they or another will ever or never do.

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:33:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain quote: All that's needed to proof that no-limit relationships are possible is ONE case in which it's proven that a person didn't have limits and actually died for their kink, and their obedience to the dominant. And as it so happens to be... there is such a case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armin_Meiwes That's the German guy who wanted to be killed and eaten, right? I think we can safely say that someone who wants to be killed and eaten is insane. quote: quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl No limit relationships do exist, and I can say that with certainty because I'm in one. And what I mean by that is that I have no allowed limits. quote: No, you two like to act as if you have no limits. You have limits, and we can find them a-plenty if we take the time. I'll say it again: no limits = non-consensual, which is impossible in most countries these days. You're contradiction yourself now... If it's possible for the insane to have no-limits, then it's possible that -under your definition- MaxsGirl is insane and has no limits. Telling HER that SHE is wrong, and YOU know better than her whether or not this is the case is absolute bullshit. I personally disagree that a person having no-limits necessarily means they are insane, but even if you want to go that route, it still indicated that it's POSSIBLE for people to not have limits. You're right that the fact that they don't have limits probably implies that their relationship would be deemed illegal in the US, because the courts would probably rule that person unable to consent. But that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly possible that what she's saying is true, that she doesn't have limits, and that you telling her that what she claims about herself is less valid than what you -a total stranger- knows about her is absolutely ridiculous... The fact that you don't like the fact that it's possible for people to be what you feel is insane and have no limits doesn't meant that it's not possible... nor does it mean that it's improbable that those people would be posting on this board. Ishtar

Chulain -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:41:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr If it's possible for the insane to have no-limits, then it's possible that -under your definition- MaxsGirl is insane and has no limits. Telling HER that SHE is wrong, and YOU know better than her whether or not this is the case is absolute bullshit. And if she's insane she can't legally consent. quote: But that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly possible that what she's saying is true, that she doesn't have limits, and that you telling her that what she claims about herself is less valid than what you -a total stranger- knows about her is absolutely ridiculous... Because I can demonstrate that everyone has limits, because if you don't have limits, the relationship is non-consensual, which is legally impossible in most places where we come from. You can say "I have no limits" and "I can't say no" all you want, but you can so no, you just choose not to, nearly all of the time, because you enjoy the feeling of being controlled to that degree. That desire to feel controlled I understand perfectly. As Marc2b stated, "no limits" is absolute. Either you have no limits, or you have limits. If you have one limit, you don't have "no limits."

NihilusZero -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:47:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain Whatever limits you have you choose to accept and you can withdraw that acceptance at any time. You might be disinclined to do so, but you cannot reasonably say "I would never say no to him" because no one knows for sure what they or another will ever or never do. This is like saying fidelity does not exist because someone could always cheat tomorrow.

MaxsGirl -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl I did agree, from the time we changed from D/s to 24/7 M/s, that I would be allowed no limits and that this relationship would not end unless he ended it. I cannot withdraw consent, or leave. You cannot? And what happens if you do? What is his remedy? Can he sue you for breach of contract? No, because the subject matter of a valid contract (in the countries most of us come from) cannot be illegal. Whatever limits you have you choose to accept and you can withdraw that acceptance at any time. You might be disinclined to do so, but you cannot reasonably say "I would never say no to him" because no one knows for sure what they or another will ever or never do. We don't have a contract, because I have never outlined what I will or will not accept. Those would be limits. If I tried to leave, he would go get me and bring me back, whether I wanted to come with him at the time or not. You're right though, this is a consentual non-consent relationship. I consented at the beginning to give up my rights completely, and now my consent - or lack of it - doesn't matter. It's that simple. You can disbelieve all you like, but this is the way Alpha and I live, every day. I am his property, and he requires no more consent from me than he does from the cat. That doesn't mean he doesn't care about how I feel or that he doesn't take my wishes into account at time, but when it comes down to it he always has the final say. That's just the way it is.

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:50:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain And Mr. Meiwes could have said at any time "Oops, changed my mind. Don't wanna be killed and eaten after all. Catch ya later." Your mention of this case is what we in the biz call a red herring, because while you think it scores some sort of point for your position, it does not. And I don't know what "biz" you're referring to... but before claiming that I'm using ignoratio elenchi you may want to look up what a "red herring" actually is, and instead of committing argumentum ad logicam (argument from fallacy) yourself and committing a laughable case of argumentum ad verecundiam (appeal to authority) in nearly all your arguments, back up your position by explaining why the Meiwes case is a red herring in this debate. Further, you may also look up your facts before dismissing an argument at hand... Meiwes wasn't the victim... Ishtar

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:57:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr If it's possible for the insane to have no-limits, then it's possible that -under your definition- MaxsGirl is insane and has no limits. Telling HER that SHE is wrong, and YOU know better than her whether or not this is the case is absolute bullshit. And if she's insane she can't legally consent. I'm sorry, but can you point out to me WHERE exactly I argued that she's capable of consenting? I don't remember stating such a thing at all. I only argued that it's possible that she has no limits. I did not even argue that I believe that she has no limits, only that the possibility exists. I'd further agree with you that people who have no limits are not able to consent... But the fact that they are not able to consent does not mean that they don't exist... nor does it mean that they are unable to post on this board. quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr quote: But that doesn't change the fact that it's perfectly possible that what she's saying is true, that she doesn't have limits, and that you telling her that what she claims about herself is less valid than what you -a total stranger- knows about her is absolutely ridiculous... Because I can demonstrate that everyone has limits, because if you don't have limits, the relationship is non-consensual, which is legally impossible in most places where we come from. You can say "I have no limits" and "I can't say no" all you want, but you can so no, you just choose not to, nearly all of the time, because you enjoy the feeling of being controlled to that degree. That desire to feel controlled I understand perfectly. As Marc2b stated, "no limits" is absolute. Either you have no limits, or you have limits. If you have one limit, you don't have "no limits." Where and when have you DEMONSTRATED that everybody on this planet has a limit... I'd like to see research on that. Are you also able to proof or disproof the existence of God? As long as you cannot proof that every single person on this planet has at least one limit, there is no possible way you can claim that it's not possible that there is at least ONE person who doesn't have limits. You had no proof whatsoever at the time you claimed MaxsGirl was lying about not having limits about the accuracy of her statement, therefore you're making a fool of yourself stating as a definitive fact that you know for sure that she has them. Ishtar

Chulain -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 6:58:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl We don't have a contract, because I have never outlined what I will or will not accept. Those would be limits. If I tried to leave, he would go get me and bring me back, whether I wanted to come with him at the time or not. You're right though, this is a consentual non-consent relationship. I consented at the beginning to give up my rights completely, and now my consent - or lack of it - doesn't matter. It's that simple. Implicit in the meaning of "consent" is the ability to withdraw consent. Again, let's say you leave And he comes after you. And let's say you don't want to come back. What is his remedy? Answer that with something other than "I would never do that." quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Where and when have you DEMONSTRATED that everybody on this planet has a limit. Read what I actually wrote, will ya? I wrote that I can demonstrate it, not that I did demonstrate it.

MaxsGirl -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:04:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain Implicit in the meaning of "consent" is the ability to withdraw consent. Again, let's say you leave And he comes after you. And let's say you don't want to come back. What is his remedy? Answer that with something other than "I would never do that." Well, I would never do that, but I'll humor you. His remedy would be to bring me back anyway, bound and gagged if necessary. I thought I had made that pretty clear.

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:04:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Where and when have you DEMONSTRATED that everybody on this planet has a limit. Read what I actually wrote, will ya? I wrote that I can demonstrate it, not that I did demonstrate it. How, how could you POSSIBLE demonstrate that everybody has limits... Especially when taking into account that a person who claims to have no limits isn't stating that they'd do anything YOU order them to do.

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:07:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain Implicit in the meaning of "consent" is the ability to withdraw consent. Again, let's say you leave And he comes after you. And let's say you don't want to come back. What is his remedy? Answer that with something other than "I would never do that." Well, I would never do that, but I'll humor you. His remedy would be to bring me back anyway, bound and gagged if necessary. I thought I had made that pretty clear. BTW, I agree with you that MaxsGirl isn't making a good case proving that she has no-limits (nor is she disproving it). MaxsGirl... fine, you decided to withdrawal consent, he's coming after you to bind and gag you to kidnap you back, and before he gets there, you call the cops on his ass... now what? If he's letting you outside, in communication with normal society, he's ALWAYS taking the risk of you withdrawing consent, and if you would chose to do so, there is NOTHING he can do about that... Ishtar

Chulain -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:12:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl Well, I would never do that Yeah, thanks. quote: but I'll humor you. His remedy would be to bring me back anyway, bound and gagged if necessary. I thought I had made that pretty clear. Now, in my hypothetical, you have left, so you no longer wish to be there (why else have you left?). What is his remedy if you refuse to allow yourself to be bound and gagged and carried away? The only way he can bind you and gag you and carry you back is with your consent, but since you, hypothetically, no longer wish to be with him, why would you consent? It's a catch-22. You cannot forever give up your right to consent to his ownership of you. If lasts only as long as you consent. That's why it's called "consensual non-consent."

MaxsGirl -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:16:44 PM)
At that point I can't really answer, because the scenario is so unlikely that I haven't really considered what my options might be. I know that saying "it would never happen" isn't satisfactory in this argument, but it's true. Sometimes the facts are just the facts, and there is no way to prove them, especially when they deal with human emotion and relationships. The fact is, I have no limits, but Alpha does. The fact is, my consent means nothing. The fact is, Alpha isn't interested in doing anything to me that would cause me to withdraw consent, so it's not an issue. The fact is, I am not allowed to leave, and am not interested in trying. There is no proof, and I have no interest in trying to prove that what I say is true. Those who take the time to get to know us would quickly see that I am stating facts, and also that we love each other so deeply that consent or lack of consent are issues that just don't come up. He wants to push my limits, and he does, but he has no interest in causing me serious harm just because he can. I'm sure that kind of guy exists, but he's not that guy. There's no further argument I can give here, because what it comes down to is he said/she said, which is unwinable by either party. At any rate, I'm happy and secure in my limitless relationship, and what others believe about how we do or do not operate changes absolutely nothing for me.

MaxsGirl -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:20:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain The only way he can bind you and gag you and carry you back is with your consent. Considering that I'm 5'6" and 125, and he's 6'3" and 230, that's a ridiculous statement. But as I said, it's a non-issue.

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:26:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl At that point I can't really answer, because the scenario is so unlikely that I haven't really considered what my options might be. I know that saying "it would never happen" isn't satisfactory in this argument, but it's true. Sometimes the facts are just the facts, and there is no way to prove them, especially when they deal with human emotion and relationships. The fact is, I have no limits, but Alpha does. The fact is, my consent means nothing. The fact is, Alpha isn't interested in doing anything to me that would cause me to withdraw consent, so it's not an issue. The fact is, I am not allowed to leave, and am not interested in trying. There is no proof, and I have no interest in trying to prove that what I say is true. Those who take the time to get to know us would quickly see that I am stating facts, and also that we love each other so deeply that consent or lack of consent are issues that just don't come up. He wants to push my limits, and he does, but he has no interest in causing me serious harm just because he can. I'm sure that kind of guy exists, but he's not that guy. There's no further argument I can give here, because what it comes down to is he said/she said, which is unwinable by either party. At any rate, I'm happy and secure in my limitless relationship, and what others believe about how we do or do not operate changes absolutely nothing for me. I'm not saying that you need to proof to me that you have no limits (nor do I think you should proof it to Chulain). However, I knew that something like what he has posted is what he was setting you up for as a rebuttal. Because of the way our legal system work, he will endlessly be able to come up with scenarios in which you possible could change your mind, and there is no definitive way of proving to him that you wouldn't change your mind... nor for that matter is it possible for him to proof that you WOULD change your mind if your Owner would decide to do this one particular thing to you (which ever one Chulain comes up with as what he supposes your limits would be). However, there are in fact a very real ways for your Owner to take your ability to revoke consent away. Like locking you away from society 24/7. Moving to a Muslim country. Killing you. Performing a lobotomy. And so on and so on. I'm not suggesting that it's necessary for your Owner to be interested in any of these to create a situation in which you have no limits. But rather, if you are at this point in time, willing to consent to any of the possible options by which your Owner is able to remove your ability to revoke your consent, then you have no limits in my book. Because you would be willingly embark into a situation KNOWING that once you made the choice, there was no possible way for you to turn back and change your mind. Whether or not you'd change your mind after the fact would be irrelevant, because you had already chosen. If you can look in your own heart -and you don't have to answer me on this one- and be sure that if your Owner would suggest doing something to you that you knew would take away your ability to revoke consent... and you'd still do it... you have no limits towards him at this time. Ishtar

Chulain -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:27:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MaxsGirl At that point I can't really answer, because the scenario is so unlikely that I haven't really considered what my options might be. I know that saying "it would never happen" isn't satisfactory in this argument, but it's true. Unless you can predict the future, you cannot reasonably say that. quote: Those who take the time to get to know us would quickly see that I am stating facts, and also that we love each other so deeply that consent or lack of consent are issues that just don't come up. Yes, they don't and have not come up (I'll take your word on that) but you cannot say they never will come up. quote: At any rate, I'm happy and secure in my limitless relationship, and what others believe about how we do or do not operate changes absolutely nothing for me. I don't need to know you to know that the whole concept of "I have no limits" is nonsense. Again, if you have no limits, the relationship is non-consensual, and that is simply not possible in the U.S., etc. The limits of your "lack of limits" is what you agree to accept. And if you agree to it, it's not limitless because you can always disagree, even if you say you never would. You still can, and that's the point. I suppose I can just keep stating the same proposition over and over, but it's never going to sink in. But don't mistake my pragmatism for envy or prudishness or judgmentalism. I'm all for consenting adults doing whatever makes them happy. I'm never going to burst into your bedroom and call you out. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr However, there are in fact a very real ways for your Owner to take your ability to revoke consent away. Like locking you away from society 24/7. Moving to a Muslim country. Killing you. Performing a lobotomy. Gee, I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess those are off the table, especially the "killing" one.

Ishtarr -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:33:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chulain Again, if you have no limits, the relationship is non-consensual, and that is simply not possible in the U.S., etc. This is where you are wrong. Non-consensual relationships are perfectly plausible in the U.S. Further than that, they are a daily reality in other parts of the world. If MaxsGirl would agree to voluntarily and knowingly enter a non-consensual relationship with her Owner, in which he removes her ability to revoke her consent, then she has no-limits. Ishtar

hausboy -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:36:01 PM)
I'm rethinking the whole "no limits" things, because at the start of this thread, I was one of those "don't buy it" naysayers. But now I'm thinking about another side of it. It goes back to the good ol' orange hanky. The orange hanky was anything, anytime. But it didn't mean with ANYONE. Perhaps.....there is a gray area here. Follow me on this one....it may get a little mucky.... Just because someone is in a "no-limits" relationship, doesn't mean that they do not have limits. I believe we ALL have limits. The difference (perhaps) is that the no-limit slave/sub has found his/her perfect match in life--their Master/Mistress/Domme etc. such that their Domme's limits and their limits are compatible, and there is nothing that their Domme/Dom would do to them that they would not accept, hence they live/exist in a relationship where there are no limits between them. If that same sub/slave played with someone else, there may be plenty of limits, but I would argue that what makes the two a match...and work as a relationship.....is that there is an underlying understanding that the Dom/Domme could do anything and the sub/slave would accept it, and the mere concept of that is enough for them. And because (I'm assuming) there is love present in such a relationship, the Dom/Domme would not do something to the sub that he or she would normally define as a hard limit. So in that sense, if we were to argue semantics, which is the favorite CollarMe pasttime, I would have to agree with many that "no-limits" is a misnomer. But the dynamic between the no-limit slave/sub and his/her Domme/Dom is obviously very real to those who live it. I don't know if the no-limit folks will agree with what I've said-- it's outside my realm of experience as I have quite a few rigid limits, and that's just how I roll.

MaxsGirl -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:37:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr However, there are in fact a very real ways for your Owner to take your ability to revoke consent away. Like locking you away from society 24/7. Moving to a Muslim country. Killing you. Performing a lobotomy. And so on and so on. I'm not suggesting that it's necessary for your Owner to be interested in any of these to create a situation in which you have no limits. But rather, if you are at this point in time, willing to consent to any of the possible options by which your Owner is able to remove your ability to revoke your consent, then you have no limits in my book. Because you would be willingly embark into a situation KNOWING that once you made the choice, there was no possible way for you to turn back and change your mind. Whether or not you'd change your mind after the fact would be irrelevant, because you had already chosen. If you can look in your own heart -and you don't have to answer me on this one- and be sure that if your Owner would suggest doing something to you that you knew would take away your ability to revoke consent... and you'd still do it... you have no limits towards him at this time. Ishtar Easy answer then. By your definition, I have no limits with him.

Chulain -> RE: no limits period (1/27/2011 7:37:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr This is where you are wrong. Non-consensual relationships are perfectly plausible in the U.S. That explains why you have provided so many examples of non-consensual relationships in the U.S. I already mentioned incarceration by the state. What you got, girl? quote: Further than that, they are a daily reality in other parts of the world. And the point of mentioning this would be ...? quote: If MaxsGirl would agree to voluntarily and knowingly enter a non-consensual relationship with her Owner, in which he removes her ability to revoke her consent, then she has no-limits. It is not possible to enter into a non-consensual relationship in the U.S., etc. Deal with it.

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