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Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:27:02 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Something that I've been seeing on a few threads lately that I was thinking might make for a good conversation. Here are a couple of examples:

"I allowed her to come and stay in Master's home."

"The sub allows the Dom to punish."

Am I the only Dominant on these boards that wonders where all of this allowance and permission is coming from on the submissive side of the kneel?

It really doesn't work like that in our dynamic. In our case, it's more like this:

I make decision X.

I expect clip to submit to decision X.

If clip doesn't submit to decision X, he is free to leave the dynamic.

That's the bottom line for us. It's either submit or don't. There is no he 'gives Me permission' to do anything. Knowing the terms of what this dynamic entailed before he became collared to Me was when he had to decide if he could live with it or not. Anything that he can't live with now means that he needs to release himself and I find someone who will.

So, let's talk about dynamics where the submissive is giving permission to the Dominant. Thoughts?

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

Post #: 1

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:29:17 AM

myotherself

Posts: 7157
Joined: 3/9/2006
From: The cold bit of the UK
Status: offline

Hmmm...food for thought!

In our dynamic, he is fully aware of my hard limits and any unusual circumstances that might affect his decisions.

Otherwise, he does as he wants and I do as he wants.

I wouldn't dream of "giving him permission" to do anything. Well, I could...but the resulting bruises might take a while to disappear

_____________________________

There's nowt so queer as folk

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 2

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:36:33 AM

DarkSteven

Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline

So clip let ya post that, huh?

I consider the D/s relationship in theory to be akin to the relationship that the President is supposed to have with Congress. The Dom proposes, and the sub's power is limited to veto, as in hard limits.

That said, I am interested in what she thinks and take her feelings into account. But the decision is mine in the end.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

(in reply to myotherself)

Post #: 3

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:47:02 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Am I the only Dominant on these boards that wonders where all of this allowance and permission is coming from on the submissive side of the kneel?

Dear Lady P
It's ear;y afternoon here so my brain is warmed up enough to have a go at this one.
I have been enslaved. I have been submissive. On that side it would never have occurred to me to either expect to, to want to or even need to make the decisions.
As soon as I did it was always the decision to release myself as I knew that anything else was a violation of the dynamic.
I say violation and I thnk it's a good word.
Any solicitations in my mail box now that even hint at what a sub or slave wants, or expects or needs and I either delete, or simply don't respond. Meaning that I haven't got time to respond to all the expectations, wants or needs that turn up a page at a time in my mail.

From this position, which is now dominant, I certainly do have expectations and desires. Only one person at this moment seems to be aware of how the protocol, which is actually my protocol, works in terms of asking the right questions, in the right form that will solicit what my expectations are.

Anything vaguely resembling 'I want to bow before you' 'please take me into service' 'I want to crawl before you' or even, and this happened only a few days ago '...a well written essay of about five hundred words listing what his talents are...'???? As if I'm the one who has to ensure all of those talents are catered for.

My instinct for 'do-me' is just as strong as my instinct to serve used to be.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 4

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:51:20 AM

BonesFromAsh

Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Knowing the terms of what this dynamic entailed before he became collared to Me was when he had to decide if he could live with it or not. Anything that he can't live with now means that he needs to release himself and I find someone who will.

Timely thread as I've also noticed the threads you referenced. The above quote is the key ingrediant, in my opinion, that seems to be missing may times.

My experience with this feeling of permission has usually been when I jumped the gun and threw myself too quickly into a "relationship" without 1) actually learning who my "partner" is and 2) neither of us being 100% clear on our mutual expectations of the dynamic within our rushed relationship. In other words...waking up from the play fantasy to the reality of trying to have a D/s dynamic with basically a stranger.
We knew a few basic things about each other and glanced over expectations of what we each wanted from an ideal D/s dynamic, but we didn't take the time to really get to know the person behind the fantasy.

Trust, respect....those sort of things don't happen overnight. It takes time and few want to look past the frenzy of the moment to the reality of everyday D/s life.

I think that's something many people do...and I think online facilitates that experience. It's too easy to play at being master and slave.

Live and learn.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 5

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:51:52 AM

TotalDiscipline

Posts: 225
Joined: 5/5/2010
Status: offline

Mmmm the only thing she allowed me...was becomming her Master.
Afther that she trusts on my ability to judge a situation. I don't need her permission...but as she has moments she is very weak because of illness...I do ask her anyway.
( and she normally replies..I can do as I wish)

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 6

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:53:36 AM

angelikaJ

Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline

Well, this submissive woman is wondering about all of these permissive based relationships.

In the thread that had this statement "The sub allows the Dom to punish.", I really wondered where that particular dominant got that idea from...along with some other ones.

Once the initial agreement for the transfer of power was made, I wouldn't suddenly decide that nope, I wasn't going to be corrected that day... and the decision wasn't made because deep down I really like it.

The handbooks he hands out must be quite different from the one I got... but that's okay; I prefer the one I have.

_____________________________

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(as deemed by He who owns me)

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3234821/tm.htm

30 fluffy points!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQjuCQd01sg

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 7

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:53:59 AM

MaxsGirl

Posts: 355
Joined: 12/2/2010
From: The Arctic Circle
Status: offline

LP, our dynamic works much like yours does. Alpha decides what is going to happen, and it happens. I only give him "permission" in that I willingly entered into a relationship with him, and at that time gave him my full permission to make any and all future decisions for both of us. No further permission is needed. Ever.

_____________________________

Property of rubbrdsir

Collared Fox and
Future Thru-Hiker!

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 8

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 5:58:09 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

So clip let ya post that, huh?

I consider the D/s relationship in theory to be akin to the relationship that the President is supposed to have with Congress. The Dom proposes, and the sub's power is limited to veto, as in hard limits.

That said, I am interested in what she thinks and take her feelings into account. But the decision is mine in the end.

Yeah. I'll get right on sending the memo when clip "lets" Me doing anything.

I did want to make a mention here that I'm not posting this original with hard limits in mind. For example, if someone enters a dynamic that they have discussed and expect will be monogamous, then Domly Dom decides that it's going to be poly, I feel that's a different situation. I'm coming more from the 'you signed up for this' situations.

The very first time that I met clip, I made him completely aware that I do engage in casual play. Nobody who meets Me should expect that to change. As time went on, yes, there was an issue on his part and he even felt jealous at the time. It was part of him coming to terms with exactly what I had told him that I would be doing. Same concept. Submit to what I wanted, what I had literally told him I would be doing, or find another Dominant more suited to him.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DarkSteven)

Post #: 9

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 6:09:55 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

The Online Disinhibition Effect has been around since the early 2000's. It's studied on syllabuses for psychology for 16 to 18 year olds here in the UK.

I think itt's number six that has a prediminating effect: the assumption that we all start out as equal. whilst none of us start out within the dynamic with another person I cannot think of a more violating position to start from within bdsm as the position that we all start out as equal.

Original paper......? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15257832
1.      You Don't Know Me (anonymity)
2.      You Can't See Me (invisibility)
3.      See You Later (asynchronicity)
4.      It’s All In My Head (solipsistic introjection or egoistic self-absorption)
5.      It’s Just A Game (dissociative imagination)
6.      We’re Equals (minimizing authority)
Endless references but also:

http://www.enotalone.com/article/2458.html
http://www.suite101.com/content/anonymity-on-the-internet-the-online-disinhibition-effect-a338866
http://www.gla.ac.uk/departments/philosophy/Personnel/susan/LynseyLogan2/disinhibition.htm

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 1/30/2011 6:11:34 AM >

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 10

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 7:03:18 AM

BonesFromAsh

Posts: 1362
Joined: 6/17/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

The Online Disinhibition Effect has been around since the early 2000's.

I must confess...I've never heard of the actual name for this sort of behavior. Thanks for the links.

quote:

I think itt's number six that has a prediminating effect: the assumption that we all start out as equal. whilst none of us start out within the dynamic with another person I cannot think of a more violating position to start from within bdsm as the position that we all start out as equal.

I would think it's because we don't start out in a certain dynamic with someone that would make those involved equals until such time as the dynamic is actually agreed upon. Then, in my opinion, it could become one of equal but different or any other shade of equality/inequality.

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 11

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 7:24:46 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BonesFromAsh

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

The Online Disinhibition Effect has been around since the early 2000's.

I must confess...I've never heard of the actual name for this sort of behavior. Thanks for the links.

quote:

I think itt's number six that has a prediminating effect: the assumption that we all start out as equal. whilst none of us start out within the dynamic with another person I cannot think of a more violating position to start from within bdsm as the position that we all start out as equal.

I would think it's because we don't start out in a certain dynamic with someone that would make those involved equals until such time as the dynamic is actually agreed upon. Then, in my opinion, it could become one of equal but different or any other shade of equality/inequality.

Absolutely. And that's the paradox. None of us start out from within a dynamic on line. And I have often been at pains to say: but I'm not in relationship to an email!
However: so many submissives that email me start out from what they BELIEVE is the submissive position, one as if it's going to be sustainable based on thin air and two that I have already chosen them And third they start out with a good dose of the third principle of on line disinhibition which is self-absorbed egotism. Also known as a solipcism, which means just because they say it so that it becomes so.
Start out from essential nature, start out from an inner sense true to oneself.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 12

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 7:30:07 AM

SourandSweet

Posts: 66
Joined: 1/22/2011
Status: offline

I do find this rather amusing.

I can't imagine me telling my dom I was giving him permission to do anything. I rather suspect I'd be out the door pdq!

If appropriate he does ask my views and opinions and makes his decisions with those in mind, but it's still his decision and the only way in which I'm 'allowing' it is that I don't leave the relationship.

Maybe it comes from subs who can't quite really give themselves to another and are trying to retain a vestige of control, even if it's more an illusion than a fact?

:-)

(in reply to BonesFromAsh)

Post #: 13

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 7:37:53 AM

AquaticSub

Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

So, let's talk about dynamics where the submissive is giving permission to the Dominant. Thoughts?

It's an interesting topic and I think one that requires careful sementics. This, to me, is along the lines of fussin' because someone refereed to the one who owns them as "their owner" or because someone calls someone a boy or a girl simply because it's what is their common terms. Ex: Around many of my friends, kinky and non, it's common to refer to our partners as "our boy", "our girl" and it has nothing to do with power dynamics in any way, shape or form. So someone asking me how my boy is has caused a few slight misunderstandings to observers.

That said... Yes, there are things where I need to grant my approval as well in our dynamic. Because of my personality and my mental issues, no, someone spending the night in my home is simply not as simple as him deciding they should. I'm sure that for other people it is but it simply is not, and likely will never be, for me. I need to be very comfortable with them, I need to feel safe and secure, I need to trust them.

If it was something so important to him that he was going to have them over despite my issues, than I would expect him to make reasonable alternate sleeping arrangements for me. If he failed in doing that, then I would get a hotel room and he could figure out how to pay for it.

Now, in the past, I have given the ok to let strangers he was interested in come visit. These visits happened under specific guidelines - such as he would get a hotel room for me if I felt uncomfortable sleeping with them in the house.

As for allowing punishment... Fuck if I know on that one. One could argue that he allows the punishment because he walks to you and not out the door. It's the sort of endless circular debate of "who owns who" that I don't even fucking care about. I suppose I allow him to punish me - I bend over and take it instead of calling 911 as I could, much as a child will allow their parent to feed them their medicine instead of keeping their jaw clamped tight.

I don't really see why that would bother anyone. To allow something to happen does not, IMHO, require absolute power over the situation. Out of several definitions of the word from Mr. Webster, these two stand out to me.

quote:

4: admit, concede <must allow that money causes problems in marriage>

5 a : permit <doesn't allow people to smoke in his home>

One is permitting, one is conceding. It seems to me that "allow" is much like anything we do - it's all about the intent.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 1/30/2011 7:39:40 AM >

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 14

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 7:39:13 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline

While she is not technically my sub, I gave LP permission to post.

I am kind that way.

_____________________________

"If you don't live it, it won't come out your horn." Charlie Parker

(in reply to SourandSweet)

Post #: 15

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 7:47:25 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

LP, i don't know much about the dynamic of submit or leave -- in fact i really don't understand it because to me its an ultimatum concept not a submission or dominant concept. But can you explain how your dynamic of submit or leave is really any different than what your OP speaks about except yours isn't a verbal type of permission but by clips decision to submit he is in fact giving you non-verbal permission.

I guess i am not seeing a difference between what you are commenting on in your OP and what you state your dynamic is except for one is a verbal concept of permission and the other is non-verbal.

angel

_____________________________

What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 16

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 8:23:10 AM

FukinTroll

Posts: 6277
Joined: 2/6/2007
From: Under a bridge
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Something that I've been seeing on a few threads lately that I was thinking might make for a good conversation. Here are a couple of examples:

"I allowed her to come and stay in Master's home."

"The sub allows the Dom to punish."

Am I the only Dominant on these boards that wonders where all of this allowance and permission is coming from on the submissive side of the kneel?

I am equally as baffled, however I accept that some are young, some are learning, and some are just stoopid.

quote:

In our case, it's more like this:

#1. Knowing the terms of what this dynamic entailed before he became collared to Me was when he had to decide if he could live with it or not.

#2. I make decision X.

#3. I expect clip to submit to decision X.

#4. If clip doesn't submit to decision X, he is free to leave the dynamic.

That's the bottom line for us. It's either submit or be gone. There is no he 'gives Me permission' to do anything. Anything that he can't live with now means that he needs to release himself and I find someone who will.

I tweaked your post a lil bit LP so I could just say... wut she said.

#1 statement of the above is the bible of the dynamic. It was your negotiations, discussions, etc... that lead to an agreeable dynamic as it should be for any D/s M/s relationship. Without all cards on the table in the beginning, it just becomes a house of cards.

YMMV
SLURP!

_____________________________

I'm the guy your girl is thinking about when she is fucking you!

TrollTopia
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The Mods have me on speed Spank!! Gotta luv'em.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 17

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 9:07:16 AM

txurinal

Posts: 209
Joined: 9/26/2009
Status: offline

When i first met my MASTERS and became THEIR slave, i served for awhile as THEIR slave before actually moving in with THEM. The last choice i was allowed to make was whether or not to move in and become a totally owned, 24/7 slave. It was understood tht once i moved in, all my needs such as food, shelter, etc would be met but any "wants" were irrelevant

Once i moved in, life became very structured, very controlled. Although there were many times i needed to ask permision for something, the idea that my MASTERS would ever again have to ask or get my permission for something was a thought that never crossed my mine and i am sure never crossed THEIRS either.

(in reply to FukinTroll)

Post #: 18

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 9:10:14 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

I think consenting is quite qyite difeerent to allowing.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to barelynangel)

Post #: 19

RE: Thanks for the permission - 1/30/2011 9:33:50 AM

allthatjaz

Posts: 2878
Joined: 8/20/2008
Status: offline

I see it this way, each and every one of us is different. My expectations of submission will differ to others expectations. I for example very much expect maisy-jayne to be able to make a decision about something. I demand she can show me her ability to make choices but at the same time never to question mine/ours.
There are some dominants and submissives on here that do things very lightheartedly and others that take things very seriously, then we have all the in betweens.
If I saw something written that said 'I give my Master permission to punish me' I would probably just think 'ah well so long as they are happy' because that is all that really matters.

I try not to look into other peoples relationships and be judgmental because its their relationship and not mine. My local munch have a couple (Dom and sub) that chase each other round and behave like children. At the same time she kneels at his feet and calls him Master and he giggles and tells anyone who is willing to stop and listen that he's been a Master for 20 years. To begin with they just really annoyed me but Steve reminded me that what they have is perfect at least for them and you can't start trouble shooting someone else's happy relationship.

_____________________________

S&M (Steve and Maria) persona libre de convencionalismos

Fan of edgeplay.co.uk

(in reply to Prinsexx)

Post #: 20

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