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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 3:45:45 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And if the government mandate on Health insurance is unconstitutional, then the requirement to own car insurance falls under the same ruling.


What a disingenuous canard. Owning a car is an activity voluntary to a degree not commonly associated with just living.

Remember, if this stand they can force you to buy asparagus. And Chevies. At times of their chosing.


The whole auto insurance thing is moot anyway..that is state law, not Federal, and states can do anything they want unless preempted.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 3:49:19 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

nobody gets free health care and nobody wants to pay for healthcare. 


Who doesnt want to pay for health care? Nobody wants to pay for someone else's healthcare unless they truly can't afford it and then it should be afforded to them on a reasonable basis. Everyone was lauding Cuba's healthcare system in another thread. If you really think Cuba's healthcare is all that, then cool...we can go to a clinic model for the indigent, because thats what Cuba amounts to.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 3:51:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

26 states are parties to the lawsuits against this.
It's dead.

It's theater.

Next act, standing.


There are so many areas of health care where the Feds intervene in State health care issues that standing will now not be a problem. Thats why severability and the entire law being unconstitutional as a result was so critical.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 3:55:58 PM   
Louve00


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I didn't read the Cuba and health care thread.  Anymore I read less and less of the threads here.  What I think would be cool...what I wanted...was the single payer system implemented.  Not everyone understood the dynamics of what that meant though. 

You get (or I get) tired of beating the same dead horse with the same stick though. 



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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 4:01:24 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I didn't read the Cuba and health care thread.  Anymore I read less and less of the threads here.  What I think would be cool...what I wanted...was the single payer system implemented.  Not everyone understood the dynamics of what that meant though. 

You get (or I get) tired of beating the same dead horse with the same stick though. 




Yup...like the dead horse that you and others dont understand..that "single payer" health care ultimately means higher costs or lower standards of medical professionals.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 4:20:37 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy
Yup...like the dead horse that you and others dont understand..that "single payer" health care ultimately means higher costs or lower standards of medical professionals.


How much lower we gonna go, we allow folks with Ds to hang that skin on their wall and treat people, hell even worse shit they do than that and are protected by their guild.......... 

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 7:44:43 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00

I didn't read the Cuba and health care thread.  Anymore I read less and less of the threads here.  What I think would be cool...what I wanted...was the single payer system implemented.  Not everyone understood the dynamics of what that meant though. 

You get (or I get) tired of beating the same dead horse with the same stick though. 




Yup...like the dead horse that you and others dont understand..that "single payer" health care ultimately means higher costs or lower standards of medical professionals.


Dont worry willbe, your platinum physician will always be available.. for the right price. Dont want to pay his fee? Come slum with the rest of us.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 1/31/2011 10:38:18 PM   
popeye1250


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This is no surprise. It was against the commerce laws.
What they need to do is have single payer healthcare where everyone pays in and everyone is entitled to the same care.
Don't want the govt running it? Me neither, just use them to collect the money and create a non-govt. entity to run things that won't become another giant beuaracracy like a govt agency would.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 2:56:39 AM   
Louve00


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I am under the impression a single payer system will be paid for thru higher taxes.  I know, I know...we don't need higher taxes.  But to take the burden off of ER's that dont get reimbursed for treating indigent people and for other reasons healthcare goes without payment...driving up the costs for everyone...a tax has to be implemented to pay for it.  Its kinda like my retirement fund...a christmas fund...or any other thing.  You pay for it, but in the form of payment that is made, you probably don't feel it as bad as a premium.  And while we think premiums are our guarantee to good health care, all a premium is through an insurance company is a sucker payment.  Start costing that insurance company too much and your treatment starts getting denied.  (Now THERE'S a real death panel for ya!!!!)  How do I know this (and I do know this.  The oh so noble insurance company that was taking our healthcare premiums for years, starting denying healthcare (tests, certain tx's, certain meds) to my husband when he was being treated for lung cancer.  If we didnt have a house to refinance to pay for his healthcare out of our own pockets...despite the healthcare we were already paying for, chances are good, with lung cancer, I'd be a widow, now.

So yea...I wouldn't mind paying for healthcare through a tax.  I'd have it.  And a profit wouldn't be a major concern...or so much of a concern that when healthcare was really needed, it wouldn't be denied!

*edited to add...and while some may counter that the gov't will also be denying healthcare for a profits sake, we haven't tried a single payer system yet.  All we've done is heard the scare tactics of republicans and lobbyists who are routing for those sacred insurance companies.  So really, we don't know.  We're just believing what we are being told.  Imagine that!!!!


< Message edited by Louve00 -- 2/1/2011 3:09:58 AM >


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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 5:28:29 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/01/pdf/law_professors_ACA.pdf

Over 100 Law Professors Agree on Affordable Care Act’s Constitutionality
“…there can be no serious doubt about the constitutionality of the minimum coverage provision.”
We, the undersigned, write to explain why the “minimum coverage provision” of the Affordable Care Act
(ACA), which requires most Americans who can afford it to have health insurance or pay a tax, rests on sound,
long-established constitutional footing. The current challenges to the constitutionality of this legislation seek to
jettison nearly two centuries of settled constitutional law.
Congress’s power to regulate the national healthcare market is unambiguous. Article I of the U.S. Constitution
authorizes Congress to regulate interstate commerce. The national market in healthcare insurance and services,
which Congress found amounts to over $2 trillion annually and consumes more than 17% of the annual gross
domestic product, is unquestionably an important component of interstate commerce. One of the Framers’
primary goals was to give Congress the power to regulate matters of national economic significance because
states individually could not effectively manage them on their own. The problems facing the modern healthcare
system today are precisely the sort of problems beyond the reach of individual states that led the Framers to give
Congress authority to regulate interstate commerce.
Opponents of healthcare reform argue that a person who does not buy health insurance is not engaging in any
commercial “activity” and thus is beyond Congress’s power to regulate. But this argument misapprehends the
unique state of the national healthcare market. Every individual participates in the healthcare market at some
point in his or her life, and individuals who self-insure rather than purchase insurance pursue a course of
conduct that inevitably imposes significant costs on healthcare providers and taxpayers.
Given that the minimum coverage provision bears a close and substantial relationship to the regulation of the
interstate healthcare market, Congress can require minimum coverage pursuant to the Constitution’s Necessary
and Proper Clause. In a landmark decision studied by every law student, the Supreme Court in 1819 explained
that the Necessary and Proper clause confirmed Congress’s broad authority to enact laws beyond the strict
confines of its other enumerated powers: “Let the end be legitimate, let it be within the scope of the
Constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end” are lawful, the Court
wrote. Since then, the Supreme Court has repeatedly held that Congress, in regulating the national marketplace,
can reach matters that when viewed in isolation may not seem to affect interstate commerce.
In 2005, Justice Antonin Scalia explained that the necessary and proper clause gives Congress broad authority to
ensure that its economic regulations work. In Justice Scalia’s words, “where Congress has authority to enact a
regulation of interstate commerce, it possesses every power needed to make that regulation effective.” Just last
term, a majority of the Supreme Court, in an opinion joined by Chief Justice John Roberts, wrote that in
“determining whether the Necessary and Proper Clause grants Congress the legislative authority to enact a
particular federal statute, we look to see whether the statute constitutes a means that is rationally related to the
implementation of a constitutionally enumerated power.”
The ACA’s minimum coverage provision fits easily within this framework. The ACA eliminates one of the
insurance industry’s worst practices—denying coverage to people with preexisting conditions—but this goal
cannot be achieved if potential patients refuse to pay into a plan during their healthy years and, when they
eventually fall ill, drain the insurance funds contributed by others. Those who choose to forgo insurance
altogether end up relying on costly emergency room care funded by the public, undermining Congress’s effort to
combat the spiraling costs of healthcare.
The direct relationship between the minimum coverage provision and the ACA's broad and comprehensive
regulation of a multitude of economic transactions involving insurance companies, hospitals, doctors, and
patients sets this apart from hypothetical laws requiring individuals, for example, to eat broccoli. To draw a
connection between a person’s decision to eat broccoli and the financial stability of the national healthcare
market requires one to pile inference upon inference. In contrast, the connection between individuals’ method of
insurance is obvious and depends upon no such attenuated reasoning.
Nothing in the Constitution’s text, history, or structure suggests that, in exercising its enumerated powers,
Congress is barred from imposing reasonable duties on citizens on the theory that such requirements amount to
regulating “inactivity.” Indeed, the Framers would be surprised by this view of Congress’s powers; they enacted
an individual mandate in the Second Militia Act of 1792, which required all men eligible for militia service to
outfit themselves with a military style firearm, ammunition, and other equipment, even if such items had to be
purchased in the marketplace. Today, individuals are still obligated by federal law to perform other actions, like
serve on juries, file tax returns, and register for selective service, among other duties.
Finally, we note that Congress also has the authority to enact the minimum coverage provision under the power
to levy taxes to promote the general welfare. Opponents say the provision is not a tax because the final version
of the law used the descriptive term “penalty” rather than the term “tax.” Yet the Supreme Court has expressly
held that a law amounts to a tax for constitutional purposes if it raises revenue. As the Court explained, the only
concern is a law’s “practical application, not its definition or the precise form of descriptive words which may
be applied to it.” Moreover, Congress imposed the minimum coverage requirement only upon taxpayers, made
the tax payable through individual tax returns, and charged the Internal Revenue Service with collection of the
tax. For the Court to reverse the democratic judgment of Congress on the arbitrary and insubstantial basis that
certain “magic words” were not used would undermine the careful separation of powers established by the
Constitution.
People can disagree about the wisdom of the Affordable Care Act, but there can be no serious doubt about the
constitutionality of the minimum coverage provision.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 5:34:08 AM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And if the government mandate on Health insurance is unconstitutional, then the requirement to own car insurance falls under the same ruling.


What a disingenuous canard. Owning a car is an activity voluntary to a degree not commonly associated with just living.

Remember, if this stand they can force you to buy asparagus. And Chevies. At times of their chosing.


The whole auto insurance thing is moot anyway..that is state law, not Federal, and states can do anything they want unless preempted.


Missing the point again. The states Require by law that its citizens have Auto Insurance.....No different than a federal mandate to do the same thing with health care.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 5:59:13 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

26 states are parties to the lawsuits against this.
It's dead.


So we have two judges who ruled it constitutional, one who did not, and one who decided only the requirement to buy was unconstitutional.

And this somehow ads up to the entire law being dead?


Actually its 14+ judges that have ruled it constitutional.

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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 6:51:58 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydawg


Mnot always says dumb stuff like this, when demonstrated to be wrong. It impresses some of the Dimmer leftists.

dawg constantly says dumb shit and cant pour piss out of a boot, and even the most imbicilic posters laugh at his dumb ass, he cannot impress a turd.

quote:


luckydawg

I mean he thinks severability is related to acts of Congress, for God's sake. You will get a more logical argument from Pahunk or Rule


Dawg thinks that he can pour piss out of a boot, but he cant.

I have no idea what you mean by I think that severability is related to acts of Congress.  You are lying and pretending that you have a basic understanding of the issues, and the law again, which you clearly do not.  Your post is complete asswipe and nonsense (this is the common situation with your posts though.) Time and circumstance has proven you wrong in every case so far, and will continue to do so. 

There is a longstanding severability doctrine, and this district court judge who is a rightwing facist has flied in the face of years of legal precedent, and legislated from the bench, which is common with the right wing judges, and it will not stand on several grounds.

But your cowardice in blathering on about other people not involved in this conversation, and your lying and pretending that this grandstanding violation of precedent will stand when events will prove you a liar only is proof that you know I am right.


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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 7:01:13 AM   
Elisabella


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psst...you misspelled Obama in your thread title.

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RE: This just in re 0bamaCare - 2/1/2011 7:03:19 AM   
Musicmystery


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2012 Theater. That's all.

It's what Republicans learned from Reagan--bad theater.

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RE: This just in re 0bamaCare - 2/1/2011 7:25:21 AM   
mnottertail


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Let's be fair here, they also learned how to deficit spend.

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RE: This just in re 0bamaCare - 2/1/2011 7:27:43 AM   
Musicmystery


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Well that's true--turning the largest creditor nation in the world into the largest debtor nation in the world in just eight years took some doing.


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RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 7:39:02 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

26 states are parties to the lawsuits against this.
It's dead.

It's theater.

Next act, standing.

Standing?

Next obfuscation, it's Bush fault.

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 7:42:04 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

psst...you misspelled Obama in your thread title.

psst...his last known legal surname is Soetoro.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: This just in re 0bama0Care - 2/1/2011 7:47:21 AM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
And if the government mandate on Health insurance is unconstitutional, then the requirement to own car insurance falls under the same ruling.


What a disingenuous canard. Owning a car is an activity voluntary to a degree not commonly associated with just living.

Remember, if this stand they can force you to buy asparagus. And Chevies. At times of their chosing.


The whole auto insurance thing is moot anyway..that is state law, not Federal, and states can do anything they want unless preempted.


Missing the point again. The states Require by law that its citizens have Auto Insurance.....No different than a federal mandate to do the same thing with health care.

Misrepresting the issue again. The States don't require by law that each of their citizens have auto insurance but, rather, only those citizens who have autos registered therein. For your liberal/simpleton mind's edification a Federal mandate that everyone have health insurance is altogether different.

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 40
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